I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[geezer]

...Now, for LT to have returned to ideas that were there and then not there, it stands to reason that he must have learned from someone else who held those ideas, or YM thought him not intelligent or talented enough to learn his later ideas, and so taught him the old, common way. The latter, I find not so likely...

LFJ this is pure speculation. Just because WSL was taught a simpler, more fighting focused approach that you happen to like, doesn't mean that the other ideas were "there, then not there", or that GM yip didn't shift his emphasis towards softer, more yielding techniques in his later years.

All that we can know for certain is that during the decades GM Yip taught in Hong Kong he changed his teaching emphasis periodically and different students took away different approaches to the art. Some versions may be more appealing to you than others, but regardless of what certain individuals maintain, it's all Wing Chun.

People are free to pick and choose what they like, but judge each version on it's actual merits not on speculative stories. Goodness knows, we've heard enough of those already.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

BTW Turkish wrestling is a bit ...er ...different than any of the grappling arts more familiar here in the west. They use a lot of oil and seem to reach inside each other's pants a lot. Not judging. Just saying that it might not translate so well to MMA.

I had to really look this one up I can honestly say that I learned something new today. CNN actually did a report on it. I looked it up to see what they were grabbing when reaching inside of each others pants. I'm going to agree with you on not translating well in MMA or for any sport where punching is allowed.

Rules and Customs | Turkish Wrestling

How a Winner is Decided

The essential pin in Yağlı Gűreş is similar to that in Greco-Roman wrestling (which, incidentally, is neither Greek nor Roman, but a modern European adaptation. Except for covering their nakedness with a kispet – which is an act of male modesty commanded by Mohammed – the Turks claim that theirs is closest to the classic Greek style). The first wrestler whose “umbilicus is exposed to heaven” loses the match. Holding of the shoulders to the ground for a period of time is not an element in the pin.

There are alternatives to this basic pin which also constitute a victory:

(1) The “crush.” A fighter may maneuver his opponent onto his stomach and then trap him by sprawling on top. If he can keep him down with his face buried in the grass he can then turn his exhausted opponent with a half-nelson for a pin. This is a dangerous move, and the referee monitors closely to see that the bottom man is not suffocated. If the “crusher” is not successful after a given period the referee has them begin again from a standing position.

(2) Submission. Occasionally the match under a hot summer sun is so long and arduous that one fighter will simply signal his submission to the referee. Pin.

(3) Since a wrestler is not restricted from placing his hands inside his opponent’s kispet (he may not grab his balls or invade his rectum, however), he can also use the waistband to hold the other man in place. Occasionally the kispet is yanked so far below his hips that the fighter being held cannot rise without exposing himself. Having lost his trunks he also loses the match.

(4) If a fighter is able to lift his opponent entirely off the ground and carry him five paces in any direction, that is a “carrying” pin.

(5) A running “flip” is sometimes employed, in which the wrestler causes both his opponent and himself to expose their navels during the roll. The loser is the one whose navel is first to be exposed. Unless the initiator of this move is careful, he may find himself the loser even though he was the “flipper.”

First combat sport I've encountered where "pantsing" your opponent is a winning tactic.

 

[JPinAZ]

On the other hand, when you get comfortable with grappling basics, you might find that they really complement your WC, and in many ways involve common combative concepts. My involvement with the DTE guys like Jake constantly reminds me of this fact.

Sure, if it helps someone, more power to them!
I'd have to see what you are referring too. From my experieince, most 'grappling answers' are counter to WC body methods and ideas of efficiency as they typically involve compromising range and self centerline/COG. Maybe I'll have to meet up with you and the DTW guys sometime, if it's cool!

Freudian slip JP??? About the time you posted this I looked out the window and it was pouring here and looked really nasty over toward Mesa and the East Valley!

heh, yeah, I don't proof read so well when typing fast. I was out in that stuff last night on my way home from work (work in Tempe, live in Gilbert). The streets were flooding fast - but I just put the G. Cherokee in 4wd and had some fun!

 

[Jake104]

On the other hand, when you get comfortable with grappling basics, you might find that they really complement your WC, and in many ways involve common combative concepts. My involvement with the DTE guys like Jake constantly reminds me of this fact.



Freudian slip JP??? About the time you posted this I looked out the window and it was pouring here and looked really nasty over toward Mesa and the East Valley!

Thanks for the shot out/ compliment Steve. I don't think I'm cross training. But what the hell do I know? It wouldn't bother me if I'am secretly being cross trained. I like to think of what I do as progressive WC. But again WTH do I know. I just do as I'm told..

 

[Jake104]

Sure, if it helps someone, more power to them!
I'd have to see what you are referring too. From my experieince, most 'grappling answers' are counter to WC body methods and ideas of efficiency as they typically involve compromising range and self centerline/COG. Maybe I'll have to meet up with you and the DTW guys sometime, if it's cool!

I'm game for pretty much whenever Jonathan. It would be fun. I have a pretty flexible schedule.LMK..

I learned quit a bit from my time with Eric and I give him credit for helping me dial in certain things. He definitely improved my overall game. So I'll always have respect for HFY ...Same goes for my current DTE instructors. They are refining me more and more and I feel like as a Martial artist they're taking it to the next level. For me it's always been the proof has to be in the pudding.

By the way, I agree with everything you just said in the above.

 

[LFJ]

LFJ this is pure speculation. Just because WSL was taught a simpler, more fighting focused approach that you happen to like, doesn't mean that the other ideas were "there, then not there",

So, you think WSL made the changes himself? He always said he taught exactly what he learned from YM, and since he wasn't a businessman trying to establish a global association, trademark his brand, and make a name for himself, like some guys we know, I see no reason for him to not be forthright. If he taught what he learned from YM, then that does mean many ideas were there, then not there. YM's approach evolved into a simpler, more direct, and efficient system up to then.

or that GM yip didn't shift his emphasis towards softer, more yielding techniques in his later years.

The thing is, many of those ideas already existed in mainland versions of WC, and YM apparently discarded them in favor of more efficient methods. I see no reason to wish to revert.

All that we can know for certain is that during the decades GM Yip taught in Hong Kong he changed his teaching emphasis periodically and different students took away different approaches to the art. Some versions may be more appealing to you than others, but regardless of what certain individuals maintain, it's all Wing Chun.

Or... we could look at the fact that most students are at least visually very similar in SNT and CK, but diverge wildly when it comes to BJ or the weapon forms. I think that is a clear indicator that not everyone completed the entire system and took it upon themselves to fill in their gaps. I don't think one man could have, or would have taught so many different versions of the same system, especially when they are at times contradictory. But if you prefer the one-big-family view and group hugs and all, that's up to you. I just find it very hard to believe.

People are free to pick and choose what they like, but judge each version on it's actual merits not on speculative stories. Goodness knows, we've heard enough of those already.

I've done quite a bit of that in recent threads, I think. Any speculation on my part would be based on the merits of each, plus timelines and so on. I really can't imagine a version of VT taught to WSL turning into the WT that LT teaches.

 

[geezer]

So, you think WSL made the changes himself? He always said he taught exactly what he learned from YM,

That is not what I said. My point was that GM Yip probably taught WSL according to his particular abilities and inclinations. And, is it likely that WSL gradually developed his own "flavor" over the years after training with GM Yip? Of course. Every great practitioner leaves their mark on the system. It would be impossible not to. Only the most mediocre of practitioners try to do exactly as instructed without adapting, adjusting and evolving. And even then change happens!

YM's approach evolved into a simpler, more direct, and efficient system up to then.

I agree. GM Yip's WC as taught in Hong Kong is certainly more streamlined than the old mainland lineages, just as mainland WC is, in turn, more streamlined and direct than some of the other southern short bridge systems it may share a history with. Like you, I see this as a generally positive trend and one of the appealing things about the Yip Man lineage. An example comparing mainland to Hong Kong WC would be the streamlining of the Mook Yang Jong form from the old versions which had around 140 or more movements to the 108 movements of the Hong Kong version at the time WSL trained.

The thing is, many of those ideas already existed in mainland versions of WC, and YM apparently discarded them in favor of more efficient methods. I see no reason to wish to revert.

Whether or not you see the reason, doesn't mean it may not have happened. Consider the above mentioned reduction of the Jong form to 108 movements. At the end of his career, GM Yip expanded the form slightly to include 116 movements, as shown in the 1981 book 116 Wing Tsun Dummy Techniques as Demonstrated by Yip Man by Master Yip Chun, with the photo sequence of GM Yip performing the movements. Now why would he shorten the form in mid-career only to expand it again at the end of his life? There are many possibilities, but the one given in Yip Chun's book was that GM Yip later felt that although he had improved the form by editing and streamlining it down to the classic lucky Buudhist number of 108, he later felt that he had gone a bit too far and had left out a couple of useful movements. So... he put them back in.

Creative people such as authors, artists, scholars, and yes, even martial artists, often tinker with their creations, editing and revising, for better or worse, for their entire lives. Personally, I would have to put GM Yip in this creative category.

Or... we could look at the fact that most students are at least visually very similar in SNT and CK, but diverge wildly when it comes to BJ or the weapon forms. I think that is a clear indicator that not everyone completed the entire system and took it upon themselves to fill in their gaps. I don't think one man could have, or would have taught so many different versions of the same system, especially when they are at times contradictory.

Yes, IMO you are correct. On the one hand, it is a demonstrable fact (which you yourself have pointed out) that GM Yip changed the WC system and how he taught it during his lifetime. On the other hand, it is also a fact that many, perhaps most of the students GM Yip taught did not receive the entire system. Some filled in the gaps learning from others, other lineages, or even other similar styles. Some of these people were open and honest about making changes in the system. However, others resorted to teaching totally fabricated movements and making fraudulent claims. However this forum does not allow "fraud busting" so I'm not going there.

I really can't imagine a version of VT taught to WSL turning into the WT that LT teaches

That's OK, LFJ. Imagination is a very personal thing. Some people simply can't imagine early hominids evolving into homo sapiens, or that the universe is expanding, regardless of what science tells us. Although a skeptic by nature, I try to keep my imagination open to a variety of possibilities...

But if you prefer the one-big-family view and group hugs and all, that's up to you.

Yep. Time for that group hug, buddy!!!

 

[LFJ]

An example comparing mainland to Hong Kong WC would be the streamlining of the Mook Yang Jong form from the old versions which had around 140 or more movements to the 108 movements of the Hong Kong version at the time WSL trained.

When I said the system was simplified I wasn't referring to the number of movements in forms or the structure of the curriculum. I meant more along the lines of the fighting strategy becoming simpler, more direct, and more efficient, and the way the forms are performed has been made to match that thinking. A lot of impractical nonsense was stripped away.

For example, the book you mentioned shows Yip Chun demonstrating 1:1 applications for the moves. In WSL's version of the dummy form there is no 1:1 application. The dummy doesn't represent human limbs and the movements are abstract training tools. It's incorrect to extract the actions as-is and show them applied against hypothetical attacks, because that's not what they're for.

The abstract interpretation of the forms is quite genius, and WSL never said they were his innovations; which I would take credit for if they were mine. He learned it from YM.

At the end of his career, GM Yip expanded the form slightly to include 116 movements, as shown in the 1981 book 116 Wing Tsun Dummy Techniques as Demonstrated by Yip Man by Master Yip Chun, with the photo sequence of GM Yip performing the movements.

I haven't read that book, but I've seen descriptions and a few photos, and it raises many questions... Like, why YC would need to consult with LT in order to write the book. Maybe he didn't learn the whole form from his dad. And why, if this was YC's book on YM's dummy form, did LT make sure the translation used his trademarked Wing Tsun spelling, representing his system, in the title and throughout when neither YM nor YC ever used that spelling? It seems there were some ulterior motives involved there.

Now why would he shorten the form in mid-career only to expand it again at the end of his life? There are many possibilities, but the one given in Yip Chun's book was that GM Yip later felt that although he had improved the form by editing and streamlining it down to the classic lucky Buudhist number of 108, he later felt that he had gone a bit too far and had left out a couple of useful movements. So... he put them back in.

Well, I'm not so sure I'm buying that he did. Many sifus point to the video of YM doing the dummy form as support for their version of the form. Which I think is quite ridiculous. The video cuts many times, YM appears to hesitate often, and even stops to talk to the camera. There is no audio, so we don't know what was said. How do we know he was not just showing how people used to do the form and then stopping to explain why he took those moves out, or that he was not just freestyling some moves as an example? In any case, it's ridiculous to base your form on videos and pictures of a sickly old man, or a book by guys who had little training with him.

Besides, the extra moves are redundant, like the three lower bong-saus. That action gets enough training throughout the form, and doing it back and forth like that is useless. That's why I presume it was taken out. The rest are impractical application-based ideas that are just slight variations of what's already in there. Again, redundant and useless. No need to be put back in.

 

[Phobius]

Well, I'm not so sure I'm buying that he did. Many sifus point to the video of YM doing the dummy form as support for their version of the form. Which I think is quite ridiculous. The video cuts many times, YM appears to hesitate often, and even stops to talk to the camera. There is no audio, so we don't know what was said. How do we know he was not just showing how people used to do the form and then stopping to explain why he took those moves out, or that he was not just freestyling some moves as an example? In any case, it's ridiculous to base your form on videos and pictures of a sickly old man, or a book by guys who had little training with him.

Besides, the extra moves are redundant, like the three lower bong-saus. That action gets enough training throughout the form, and doing it back and forth like that is useless. That's why I presume it was taken out. The rest are impractical application-based ideas that are just slight variations of what's already in there. Again, redundant and useless. No need to be put back in.

You mean to say that a very sick man goes out of bed to record the wooden dummy form in a haze and while doing so he decides to show techniques and discuss on how they should not be part of the form? Especially on a mute recording? After all the recording if I remember correctly was done as a last effort to assure the form is kept documented.

No matter extra techniques being there or not, it is still the same training and it all adheres to same principal, so does it matter if you think the extra techniques add no value? Does not make the form any less valid be it 108 or 116 points.

WSL VT or LT WT or whatever else, there is no point in arguing about any of it unless some specific technique/move/concept is brought up for debate. For me personally calling a technique different and no longer valid means you are limiting your own point of view and development. Instead it might just not work for you. (Granted that it stems from WC or the topic would not be suited for this forum)

EDIT: We are soo far off-topic I dont even know how to start getting this back on topic.

 

[Tez3]

First combat sport I've encountered where "pantsing" your opponent is a winning tactic

This was held yesterday, we did think about going over to watch as it's not that far from us but as is usual with Bank holiday weathr it poured it down so we went to watch a film and have a meal out. Shame it could have been a winning experience to take back to the club. Bear in mind this is from the home of catch wrestling, Lancashire.
World Gravy Wrestling

 

[LFJ]

You mean to say that a very sick man goes out of bed to record the wooden dummy form in a haze and while doing so he decides to show techniques and discuss on how they should not be part of the form? Especially on a mute recording? After all the recording if I remember correctly was done as a last effort to assure the form is kept documented.

If you remember correctly? Oh, I didn't realize you were present at the recording. So, what was he saying?

No matter extra techniques being there or not, it is still the same training and it all adheres to same principal, so does it matter if you think the extra techniques add no value? Does not make the form any less valid be it 108 or 116 points.

Numbers don't matter, but the interpretation does. And no, it is not the same training and doesn't adhere to the same principals as WSL learned from YM.

 

[geezer]

Well LFJ, I guess I'm not gonna get that hug .

Your verbal anti-grappling has defeated me. Maybe I should go talk to Steve, Hanzou, Tony, and the other grapplers. They're a huggy bunch... even if it ends in a submission!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well LFJ, I guess I'm not gonna get that hug .

Your verbal anti-grappling has defeated me. Maybe I should go talk to Steve, Hanzou, Tony, and the other grapplers. They're a huggy bunch... even if it ends in a submission!

Yes ... Come over to the dark side. Combat cuddling with hugs for everyone!

 

[wtxs]

That is not what I said. My point was that GM Yip probably taught WSL according to his particular abilities and inclinations. And, is it likely that WSL gradually developed his own "flavor" over the years after training with GM Yip? Of course. Every great practitioner leaves their mark on the system. It would be impossible not to. Only the most mediocre of practitioners try to do exactly as instructed without adapting, adjusting and evolving. And even then change happens!

You are 100% point on of how WSL might had been instructed.

What you'd said above (bold faced & underlined) applies to majority of MA practiced out there.

 

[Jake104]

Well LFJ, I guess I'm not gonna get that hug .

Your verbal anti-grappling has defeated me. Maybe I should go talk to Steve, Hanzou, Tony, and the other grapplers. They're a huggy bunch... even if it ends in a submission!

I'm guessing, He has a black belt in that art?

 

[Hanzou]

So much wrong in that opening set up. So much wrong with the entire video overall.

Also he has another vid where he shows how to snap someone's neck in guard, but says not to do it because it's dangerous. One of his students says "but what if we want to?"

 

[geezer]

So much wrong in that opening set up. So much wrong with the entire video overall.

Look at the bright side. At least this guy realizes that grappling has become a fact of life for the modern martial artist and is trying to learn how to deal with it. On the other hand, apparently he has a ways to go. Seems easier to cross-train with somebody who already has this stuff figured out and tested. But that's just me.

So why am I not studying BJJ or something similar right now? Joint problems (sometimes just walking is getting to be a be-yach) and like, everyone, time constraints. Still, Hanzou , thanks for the ...er...cautionary message.

 

[Steve]

Look at the bright side. At least this guy realizes that grappling has become a fact of life for the modern martial artist and is trying to learn how to deal with it. On the other hand, apparently he has a ways to go. Seems easier to cross-train with somebody who already has this stuff figured out and tested. But that's just me.

So why am I not studying BJJ or something similar right now? Joint problems (sometimes just walking is getting to be a be-yach) and like, everyone, time constraints. Still, Hanzou , thanks for the ...er...cautionary message.

Problem I see is that he isn't trying to learn how to deal with it. He's teaching people how to deal with it. That's the problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

Problem I see is that he isn't trying to learn how to deal with it. He's teaching people how to deal with it. That's the problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah training in concepts. Seen people try that before. My martial art works so therefore it will work in this new situation.

Rather than this is the easiest to learn most effective method. Let's just train that.

(On a side not this is where bjj can steer people a bit wrong and you start to see things like rolling knee bars in someone's self defence arsenal. Yes they work but probably more important things to train if you are some kung fu guy who wants take down defence)

 

[drop bear]

So much wrong in that opening set up. So much wrong with the entire video overall.

Also he has another vid where he shows how to snap someone's neck in guard, but says not to do it because it's dangerous. One of his students says "but what if we want to?"

Can opener?