Some more thoughts on "anti grappling".

[Punchy]

I have no idea of this concept of acknowledging hits. You get hit or you don't. There are some things I won't tap to either. Guillotines are one because i can generally ride them out.

If I'm working with someone that is ignoring my punches and plowing into me because I'm being a nice guy and lightly tapping them, then the next exchange gets a bit rougher, and so on until they get the message.

But there is a fine line of acknowledging every little touch and knowing that if a technique had been thrown with power and intent it would have stopped you dead in your tracks.
I constantly harp to my guys that you're going to get hit, no one's that good. It becomes a matter of drive and toughness on whether you're able to keep going after taking a few shots.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I'm working with someone that is ignoring my punches and plowing into me because I'm being a nice guy and lightly tapping them, then the next exchange gets a bit rougher, and so on until they get the message.

We all have experienced about "control punch" some point in our life while our opponent may not get the message. If you can punch at your opponent's face, you should be able to grab on his throat. A throat hold can stop your opponent's forward momentum. If you want to take him down, all you need is just to add your leading arm control and leg cut. IMO, this may be the best way to train your knock down punch without hurting your opponent but still with some degree of "combat" reality.

 

[drop bear]

We all have experienced about "control punch" some point in our life while our opponent may not get the message. If you can punch at your opponent's face, you should be able to grab on his throat. A throat hold can stop your opponent's forward momentum. If you want to take him down, all you need is just to add your leading arm control and leg cut. IMO, this may be the best way to train your knock down punch without hurting your opponent but still with some degree of "combat" reality.

Honestly if you are any good there are a few ways to get the message across.

 

[drop bear]

If I'm working with someone that is ignoring my punches and plowing into me because I'm being a nice guy and lightly tapping them, then the next exchange gets a bit rougher, and so on until they get the message.

But there is a fine line of acknowledging every little touch and knowing that if a technique had been thrown with power and intent it would have stopped you dead in your tracks.
I constantly harp to my guys that you're going to get hit, no one's that good. It becomes a matter of drive and toughness on whether you're able to keep going after taking a few shots.

Sparring lightly is a different game with different tactics to sparring heavy.

 

[Hanzou]

I thought I posted a few, but I guess they don't count.

Really, it seems like everyone is only interested in arguing at this point. My answer is "STFU and train" -- Train Wing Chun. Train grappling. Train Wing Chun against grapplers. Any unrealistic notions will be quickly dispelled, and you'll get far more benefit than you will from arguing notions and semantics on the internet. And just maybe, dispel ignorance on both sides of the issue.

From reading this thread, I can't help but marvel that elitism among grapplers is just as bad as elitism among WC practitioners. Put them together, and you have some awful stubborn head butting going on. Or you know, a very well rounded fighter, if you can get past that first bit.

Pointing out bogus techniques isn't elitism. Frankly, these techniques were created with dubious intentions. We're doing you guys a favor by exposing how laughable they are against their intended victims, and giving you pointers on real grappling counters and techniques. If you want to learn anti-grappling, learn grappling. Don't attempt to apply WC where it was never intended to be applied.

 

[geezer]

Don't attempt to apply WC where it was never intended to be applied.

Intended? ....Hmmm, methinks there is more to WC than is dreamed of in your philosophy, Hanzou.

 

[Hanzou]

Intended? ....Hmmm, methinks there is more to WC than is dreamed of in your philosophy, Hanzou.

Given those anti-grappling videos, I beg to differ.

 

[Hanzou]

[video]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-Hn_Y86CEk[/video]

And now we have Counter Grappling........

I laughed at this clip more than I should have.

 

[drop bear]

[video]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-Hn_Y86CEk[/video]

And now we have Counter Grappling........

I laughed at this clip more than I should have.

The really weird thing about that is the defence for bycicle kicking is moves like the cartwheel. Which I would never have believed was viable until someone did it.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fOtbiXvoZT8

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs3RBue2Plg

 

[mook jong man]

[video]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-Hn_Y86CEk[/video]

And now we have Counter Grappling........

I laughed at this clip more than I should have.

Pretty solid technique in my book , getting kicked in the face and the groin is no fun.
That being said you could probably do away with some of the fancy stuff.

Just because it is not your way , does not make it a less valid tool for self defence.

 

[mook jong man]

The really weird thing about that is the defence for bycicle kicking is moves like the cartwheel. Which I would never have believed was viable until someone did it.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fOtbiXvoZT8

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs3RBue2Plg

Yeah cartwheels will work in the crowded bar won't they.

Excuse me people can you move for a sec while I just cartwheel onto this dude on the floor.

 

[Master Dan]

Well just a quick opinion hear on the you tube video: First a lot of fights to go to ground but why resort to going there first? That position on the ground only escalates the fight and it is far from over! Also what if a second or multiple people are standing by to kick you and what ever? You have lost your ability to deal with them!! If the attacker was right handed on your left side with a one are head lock as shown I suggest the following.

First relax and bring your left arm over the top and your hand placed over the attackers face with your left thumb applying pressure to the nerves under the nose. The mistake people make is trying to push the attackers head back? No if you apply the thumb and nerve pressure properly the attacker's head move back setting him off balance backwards and exposing two vital areas the throat and the stomach conception points or solarplex. If it is not life threatening, say a drunk or friend you hammer fist the stomach as hard as you need to resulting in their being completely down and you can walk away.

Second: Life threatening situation this means weapons or multiple attackers coming in to kill you or do some real damage. This means you need to make sure the guy does not get up and you focus on the next person! Instead of hammer fist to stomach you use knife hand the throat while his head is back and throat is stretched. Remember this will collapse the throat and there is no coming back with out a trace insertion of a tube. It is a horrible thing to listen to the sucking noise of a person trying to get air and it will haunt you in your sleep for some time. You cannot talk this stuff you need to practice physically and mentally because you will do what you practice.

 

[Hanzou]

Pretty solid technique in my book , getting kicked in the face and the groin is no fun.
That being said you could probably do away with some of the fancy stuff.

Just because it is not your way , does not make it a less valid tool for self defence.

Its not a valid tool for self defense because its nonsense.

Think about this for a moment; They're saying that what amounts to bicycle kicking is an effective method of stopping someone from getting on top of you after a takedown.

You know what a grappler is going to do? They're going to grab one of your legs, and move it aside. That's IF you're somehow lucky enough to break his takedown hold by bicycle kicking him in the first place.

Seriously, do you guys actually test this stuff, or do you just believe it because its Wing Chun? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[mograph]

Just checking in, from the peanut gallery (feel free to ignore this post): what is the goal of the techniques discussed here?
There may be multiple goals being discussed without their being explicitly stated, hence the disagreements.

Carry on.

 

[mook jong man]

Its not a valid tool for self defense because its nonsense.

Think about this for a moment; They're saying that what amounts to bicycle kicking is an effective method of stopping someone from getting on top of you after a takedown.

You know what a grappler is going to do? They're going to grab one of your legs, and move it aside. That's IF you're somehow lucky enough to break his takedown hold by bicycle kicking him in the first place.

Seriously, do you guys actually test this stuff, or do you just believe it because its Wing Chun? I'm genuinely curious.

People generally kick a lot faster than what was shown in that video , and not as circular I might add.
Very hard to grab legs that are both continually thrusting out at high speed.
You grab one leg , they'll kick you in the head with the other.

 

[Hanzou]

People generally kick a lot faster than what was shown in that video , and not as circular I might add.
Very hard to grab legs that are both continually thrusting out at high speed.

Yes, if you're actually dumb enough to stay directly in the path of the legs kicking at you.

How about you shift slightly to the right or left of the kicker's legs and advance? The kicker has to shift their hips in order to compensate for your lateral movement, at which point the attacker can simply control your legs at the knee and enter into position.

Or he can get under your kicking legs, grab you, and begin to stack you.

Or he can grab your ankles, or pants and control your leg, setting you up for an ankle lock.

You grab one leg , they'll kick you in the head with the other.

How much damage do you think a kick with your right leg would do if I control your left leg, and I'm on the left side of your hips? Once a grappler controls one of your legs, it becomes an easy guard pass.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah cartwheels will work in the crowded bar won't they.

Excuse me people can you move for a sec while I just cartwheel onto this dude on the floor.

Bycicle kicks won't work in a river. Are you really going down this path. It is silly.

 

[Vajramusti]

Some of you don't know good wing chun & I don't comment on the videos.
It's too easy to pick bad examples of style and critique the style.


Good wingchun develops a pretty good structure and dynamics standing up and preventing take down.
If one ends up on the ground you roll in several different ways and get up for more action.

If you cant get up right away there are still uses of short power if you have developed short power.

Apart from styles--individuals can make a difference. Depends on what you master.

No sense in getting bogged down with endless debating in this thread.

 

[Hanzou]

Some of you don't know good wing chun & I don't comment on the videos.

It's pretty hard to determine what "good Wing Chun" is if every video example shown is supposedly "bad".

 

[Vajramusti]

True. Bad you tube samples of any good subject does not tell much about the subject- except that there are many bad examples.