I switched from point fighting to full-contact Karate, going from black to white. Here are my initial impressions.

[Leviathan]

I made some similar observations when I switched from karate shotokan to Muay Thai.

I have been studying various point-based Karate and Taekwondo styles for about 9 years. For the past month, I have been doing Kyokushin. Here are my initial thoughts on full-contact fighting:


-Full-contact styles have more adults than point fighting styles. This is a good thing.

Yes but the adults tend to be younger, don’t they?

-Full-contact is more useful than point fighting. Real fights are close-range slug matches, not long-range games of tag.

-Full-contact is easier than point fighting. The former feels like real fighting and instinct takes over easily. The latter is just so jittery and weird that it becomes an awkward, overly-challenging game of tag.

Full contact is more realistic, definitely. And it’s easier to throw a technique when you don’t have to come to a full stop shortly before the target or if you can only touch gently.

-Full-contact (at least in the dojo) feels more safe than point fighting. I was getting injuries in point fighting anyway so I didn't see the point of no contact. Besides, in full-contact, everything moves slower so it's easier to place your techniques in the correct target area without missing and hitting a knee or groin. It's almost like point fighting is just a less effective, more dangerous, more difficult version of fighting that doesn't actually prepare you for self defense.

I got less injuries with full contact too. Reasons:
- you wear more and much better gear in full contact
- you learn better blocks and parries. Once you get into a somehow realistic fight, you realize karate blocks (age uke, shuto uke, Gedanke barai etc.) are rubbish or even dangerous
- kicking with the back of the foot as in karate shotokan is quite dangerous when you go for it; kicking with the lower shin is much safer

However I am reluctant as to head injuries or long term consequences of full contact. Not competing is gonna help but in Muay Thai I sparred quite a few times with fairly raging young guys who did not take it easy, even if you asked them to. You improve your fighting skills very fast, yes but in the long run I don’t think it’s healthy.

-Every martial artist needs to know what impact feels like. Being hit isn't just pain to the impact area, but a shockwave which rattles that entire area of the body. Being unfamiliar with this feeling will make real self defense impossible.

Yes it is “interesting” but beware that in a martial art you train for a situation that is not happening very often in a street fight / assault on the street.
- dojo: 1 vs. 1, unarmed or same weapons, both opponents fit and in fighting condition, both opponents usually of similar level / size, rules
- assault: 5 vs. 1, armed vs. unarmed, taken by surprise, no referee, no rule

-Leg kicks hurt a lot. I'll take a hundred liver shots before a single thigh kick. Likewise, I'd much rather kick low than waste energy kicking high, as the success rate of low kicks seems much higher than body and head kicks.

Yes, leg kicks are an effective technique

-On that note, everyone needs to know how to leg check. It is a lifesaver (legsaver?).

-Punches to the body aren't that bad. Yeah sure if you relax your abdominals they might suck but just tighten up and you're fine.

-Kata is actually useful. But out of the hundreds of kata, this only applies to a few of them. I find that the applications from more "simple" kata (Seisan, Suparinpei, Sochin, Enpi, etc) is more worthwhile for full-contact fighting than more sophisticated "bunkai bro" kata (Gojushiho, Kushanku, Nipaipo, Chinte, etc). More time must be spent on the "easy" kata than the others.

I find katas completely useless

-I have come to realise the importance of strength training, not just cardio.

-Sanchin is helpful.


Yeah switch to full contact. It's safer, easier, and more practical. Point fighting can go in the bin.

I have moved to kickbox, which is in my opinion a fairly good compromise between point fighting and full contact. It also depends on the trainer though.

 

[O'Malley]

It's interesting to read the opinions in this thread.

By the way, do you feel like your point fighting experience has given you some advantages in your full contact sparring? I'd expect maybe greater explosiveness at range, overall mobility and precision. What has been your experience compared to people who maybe only had full contact training?

 

[HighKick]

I have been studying various point-based Karate and Taekwondo styles for about 9 years. For the past month, I have been doing Kyokushin. Here are my initial thoughts on full-contact fighting:


-Full-contact styles have more adults than point fighting styles. This is a good thing.

-Full-contact is more useful than point fighting. Real fights are close-range slug matches, not long-range games of tag.

-Full-contact is easier than point fighting. The former feels like real fighting and instinct takes over easily. The latter is just so jittery and weird that it becomes an awkward, overly-challenging game of tag.

-Full-contact (at least in the dojo) feels more safe than point fighting. I was getting injuries in point fighting anyway so I didn't see the point of no contact. Besides, in full-contact, everything moves slower so it's easier to place your techniques in the correct target area without missing and hitting a knee or groin. It's almost like point fighting is just a less effective, more dangerous, more difficult version of fighting that doesn't actually prepare you for self defense.

-Every martial artist needs to know what impact feels like. Being hit isn't just pain to the impact area, but a shockwave which rattles that entire area of the body. Being unfamiliar with this feeling will make real self defense impossible.

-Leg kicks hurt a lot. I'll take a hundred liver shots before a single thigh kick. Likewise, I'd much rather kick low than waste energy kicking high, as the success rate of low kicks seems much higher than body and head kicks.

-On that note, everyone needs to know how to leg check. It is a lifesaver (legsaver?).

-Punches to the body aren't that bad. Yeah sure if you relax your abdominals they might suck but just tighten up and you're fine.

-Kata is actually useful. But out of the hundreds of kata, this only applies to a few of them. I find that the applications from more "simple" kata (Seisan, Suparinpei, Sochin, Enpi, etc) is more worthwhile for full-contact fighting than more sophisticated "bunkai bro" kata (Gojushiho, Kushanku, Nipaipo, Chinte, etc). More time must be spent on the "easy" kata than the others.

-I have come to realise the importance of strength training, not just cardio.

-Sanchin is helpful.


Yeah switch to full contact. It's safer, easier, and more practical. Point fighting can go in the bin.

Words from someone who has dabbled in several areas but does not have a grasp of any of them. There is just SO much wrong with this post I pray it doesn't affect someone new to the MA's who is reading it.
Just so many adjectives I could use to describe this post.

 

[HighKick]

Eh maybe. But I find the amount of body shots to really get to me is far greater than the amount of leg kicks.

Trust me, you have not had a really good body shot yet.

 

[HighKick]

I don't disagree.

But I would add a couple things. One, full contact sparring is a young man's game. If I have to go to work with a black eye or a broken hand (and I've done it) from a tournament, it kind of sucks. When I have to take time off to heal up, it's a problem. And at my age, that's a real possibility. I don't have anything to prove any more.

Second, even full contact sparring isn't 'real life' in the sense of self-defense. Sure, it's closer. But self-defense isn't (usually) a "slugfest." It's a couple sloppy looping punches, some slipping, some grabbing and pulling, some clothes ripping, lots of grunting and swearing, and some falling down and rolling around aimlessly. If I have to engage in self-defense, I'm going to do all the dirty illegal things I can manage that would not be permitted in a full-contact sparring match. I'll be eye gouging, groin grabbing, stomping, trying to hyperextend or break joints, using any available weapons, and so on. I get someone down, I'll hammer fist their eye socket until their orbital ridge collapses. I'll stomp and restomp the groin until Master Ken would be proud. It won't look like a sparring match at all. Either that or I'll be dead, but I'm going to try to avoid that if I can. There certainly will not be an extended slug fest unless I'm doing something very wrong.

I've never seen a good way to safely practice attempting to permanently and savagely injure another person to the point where they are incapable of continuing to pose a threat.

Bill, this is a complete tangent, but your opening statement sure got me thinking about something that happened to me in the past.
When our son was about 2-years old, and we took him to the county fair. We stopped at one of the food stands for corn dogs and my wife's must have candied apple. Our son was standing next to me on a barstool, and I had one hand on/near his back for balance. When he finished his corndog, he decided to jump to me (he was rounder) and when he did, the corndog stick he was still holding hit me near my temple, broke, and the jagged edge proceeded to poke me in the eye. Hurt like h**l but I initially did not think anything was really wrong, so we left for home.

About 2-hours later I could not stand it anymore and my wife took me to the ER. The stick had gone into the white of my eye and back out in the iris, leaving a small piece of wood.
To this day I do not know what it was that the doctor sprayed in my eye, but the pain was immediately gone. He said something to the effect of "don't get used to it because I can only use it once". It lasted about 15-minutes, then the pain was back full on. The doc said eye would heal in its own in time. The piece of wood was removed, I was eye drop pain meds (which did very little) and a patch over the eye and sent home.

I had a corporate meeting of people from all over the US and Canada the next day that I was leading so missing it was not an option. Absolutely one of the most miserable experiences I can remember. Damn, that injury hurt.

 

[TenHands]

It's interesting to read the opinions in this thread.

By the way, do you feel like your point fighting experience has given you some advantages in your full contact sparring? I'd expect maybe greater explosiveness at range, overall mobility and precision. What has been your experience compared to people who maybe only had full contact training?

It helps with timing and distance for sure. Also relaxation.

 

[TenHands]

Trust me, you have not had a really good body shot yet.

Oh trust me I have. I've taken some good body kicks that have put me down. While I've taken some really good body punches enough to stop me from fighting for a few seconds, I've never been outright knocked down by one.

 

[TenHands]

Words from someone who has dabbled in several areas but does not have a grasp of any of them. There is just SO much wrong with this post I pray it doesn't affect someone new to the MA's who is reading it.
Just so many adjectives I could use to describe this post.

You can use those adjectives if you want. I don't mind criticism or new ideas. That's why I keep switching arts.

 

[Haruhiko]

I find katas completely useless

This hurts to read. Does Muay Thai have any kata or is it just training, conditioning, and sparring?

 

[HighKick]

Oh trust me I have. I've taken some good body kicks that have put me down. While I've taken some really good body punches enough to stop me from fighting for a few seconds, I've never been outright knocked down by one.

You are making my point.
Until you have peed blood for a day or so, you have not had a Hard kidney shot.

 

[Leviathan]

This hurts to read. Does Muay Thai have any kata or is it just training, conditioning, and sparring?

There are no katas in Muay Thai and it’s as you said: training, conditioning and sparring. Same applies for kickboxing, though in my club they do not stress sparring much.

 

[TenHands]

You are making my point.
Until you have peed blood for a day or so, you have not had a Hard kidney shot.

Never had kidney but definitely liver. I've taken liver and it hurt pretty bad for about a week.

I've also gotten a rib cracked. by a maegeri/apchagi.

Been thrown across the room by an ushirogeri/dwichagi.

I know what a hard body shot is but it's usually a kick.

 

[Haruhiko]

There are no katas in Muay Thai and it’s as you said: training, conditioning and sparring. Same applies for kickboxing, though in my club they do not stress sparring much.

My first introduction to Muay Thai was the film Ong-Bak in the mid 2000s. Amazing choreography, but aside from that I vividly remember the opening scene of boys on a village road scraping tin cans across their shins. And the scene with the flaming kicks is awesome!

I also respect the sportsmanship/culture in Muay Thai - the arm bands, subtle Buddhist undertones, and the kneeling and clasping hands after each fight.

I'm really curious about the origins of Muay Thai now... is it related to any indigenous martial systems, or a relatively new art, and hence no kata?

 

[Leviathan]

My first introduction to Muay Thai was the film Ong-Bak in the mid 2000s. Amazing choreography, but aside from that I vividly remember the opening scene of boys on a village road scraping tin cans across their shins. And the scene with the flaming kicks is awesome!

I also respect the sportsmanship/culture in Muay Thai - the arm bands, subtle Buddhist undertones, and the kneeling and clasping hands after each fight.

I'm really curious about the origins of Muay Thai now... is it related to any indigenous martial systems, or a relatively new art, and hence no kata?

Muay Thai is an old martial art, with roots reaching back several centuries.

There are no kata competitions, so no need to entertain some choreography/ gymnastic and pretend it is something it is not, just to try to legitimate it.

Muay Thai is a full contact sport, so when they fight in a ring they mean business, not a game of tag.

 

[TenHands]

Muay Thai is an old martial art, with roots reaching back several centuries.

There are no kata competitions, so no need to entertain some choreography/ gymnastic and pretend it is something it is not, just to try to legitimate it.

Muay Thai is a full contact sport, so when they fight in a ring they mean business, not a game of tag.

Isn't there an older Thai kickboxing style that does have some type of "forms"? Muay Boran or something.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Isn't there an older Thai kickboxing style that does have some type of "forms"? Muay Boran or something.

Yes.

 

[mograph]

In case anyone missed the class on traumatic brain injury, it's not good to make the brain rattle around inside the head.

The jarring of the brain against the sides of the skull can cause shearing (tearing) of the internal lining, tissues, and blood vessels leading to internal bleeding, bruising, or swelling of the brain.

Carry on.

Traumatic Brain Injury

Acquired brain injury hapens when a sudden, external, physical assault damages the brain. It is one of the most common causes of disability and death in adults.

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/traumatic-brain-injury-tbi

 

[TenHands]

In case anyone missed the class on traumatic brain injury, it's not good to make the brain rattle around inside the head.



Carry on.

Traumatic Brain Injury

Acquired brain injury hapens when a sudden, external, physical assault damages the brain. It is one of the most common causes of disability and death in adults.

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/traumatic-brain-injury-tbi

Kyokushin doesnt have that in the dojo. Head kicks are pulled.