A Question About Ninjutsu

[repz]

I just got neg repped for the above post. Strangely enough, the message was 'Its ok to ask questions, thats what a forum is, you should take things so serious.'

I don't understand what was offensive about my post. It's not like I discouraged the OP from asking questions. On the contrary. Asking questions is good. I do a lot of that myself. However, there are ways to ask questions, and saying that you read a lot of things about Hatsumi sensei and then demanding that Hatsumi sensei send out his irreplacable scrolls to convince the sceptics who don't even study his art... why should he? And what exactly would examination reveal?

Furthermore, the second paragraph of my post links to a very good article going into a detailed explanation of the stituation, and the reasons why the controverse is really not a big deal to the people who care. To me, that seemed a very on-topic reply without bad intent.

So rather than cowardly leaving me neg rep, you could have also replied in the forum and engaged me in a discussion about whether my answer was objectionable or not, and why. After all 'that's what a forum is for' according to your own words.

Maybe its because you sent me a negative rep, since you said something about, "on this again", since you replied to both to this one, and the last question I asked, and you obviously knew it was me. How are you going to say a cowardly move if you did the same and initiated it? I didnt even recall my other post anout ninjutsu until your negative repped comment had me search what your comment meant.

And I am not trying to get people angry or stop an arguement about it. The original post was about the authenticity, was it not? i didnt go off topic, this is supposed to get the attention of a message that i posted, because thats what the poster asked and i got a neg rep for it.

And I have nothing against ninjutsu, it just something i read and figured i could post it on a question that asked about it since it related to my reading, and not have someone get angry about it. I didnt reply to your message for a reason, because I have no desire to, i just answered the post and got negative repped for it. hence my negative rep to you on something that was directly linked to the message asked and nothing more.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I suggest the rules regarding the rep system be reviewed folks......

 

[Bruno@MT]

Maybe its because you sent me a negative rep, since you said something about, "on this again", since you replied to both to this one, and the last question I asked, and you obviously knew it was me. How are you going to say a cowardly move if you did the same and initiated it? I didnt even recall my other post anout ninjutsu until your negative repped comment had me search what your comment meant.

Please contact one of the mods or an admin and have them confirm that it was not me who left you a neg rep. I repeat. I did not leave you a neg rep. They won't tell you who did (probably), but they should be able to tell you that it was not me.

 

[Cryozombie]

Maybe its because you sent me a negative rep, since you said something about, "on this again", since you replied to both to this one, and the last question I asked, and you obviously knew it was me. How are you going to say a cowardly move if you did the same and initiated it? I didnt even recall my other post anout ninjutsu until your negative repped comment had me search what your comment meant.

Hey, buddy, that was me. Since I used to be on staff here, I often forget that everyone can't see who left rep, so I don't always remember to sign it. And just because you don't remember constantly beating a dead horse, doesn't mean the rest of us don't... so don't be surprised when someone says "OMG NOT AGAIN" to you.

Thanks for playing.

 

[repz]

Please contact one of the mods or an admin and have them confirm that it was not me who left you a neg rep. I repeat. I did not leave you a neg rep. They won't tell you who did (probably), but they should be able to tell you that it was not me.

Ahhh, then I am sorry bruno. I figured since it said "I was on this again", it had to be linked to something I posted twice about, which it was, but i didnt expect it to be someone who decided to drop a negative post and not reply. I can see now how you would have taken a drop in negative comment and not a word of reply as something cowardly.

 

[Cryozombie]

I can see now how you would have taken a drop in negative comment and not a word of reply as something cowardly.

OOOH, you burned me there buddy. LOL.

 

[Archangel M]

People need to get over this negative rep thing.

What is this, grade school?

 

[jks9199]

Folks, I'm involved in this thread. As a general rule, we don't moderate in threads we're involved in. That said...

DROP THE REP DISCUSSION. It's derailing what's actually been a good and interesting thread. If you've got a problem with rep you received, report it. If you don't want to deal with it at all, you can opt out of the rep system in your User Control Panel.

Before someone who isn't involved takes formal action.

 

[Muawijhe]

As the original poster, I want to thank everyone for their responses. I've gotten a lot of good insight, and appreciate everyone's involvement.

Upon going back and reading my initial question, and from what I've learned in the time since (both here and without), I realize that in the ninjutsu community I asked a particularly loaded question and I apologize for that.

However I do have to ask, "What next?"

For example, if the authenticity of the scrolls hypothetically were to be validated, what do you see as the future or reaction towards the X-kans and ninjutsu?

On the opposite side, should the scrolls hypothetically be disproven, then what do you see as the future or reaction towards the X-kans and ninjutsu?

There is so much heated debate on this topic, and many who wage wars to seemingly debunk ninjutsu, and just as many staunchly defending it. But it all seems so short-sight and short-term to me. Should you have your beliefs/wants proven, then what?

NOTE: I know that after apologizing for asking a loaded question before I went and did it again, but I'm curious to see where people would go if they had their way.

 

[bluekey88]

Rather than what next...I tend to ask, so what?

Does it really matter in the end? I've done a lot of martial arts in my lifetime. Some have been old, some new, had some good instrucotrs and some really marginal ones.

In the end, the only things that matter are "am I enjoying my training?" and "am I getting something out of it?" The nature of the scrolls and the pedigree of ninjutsu are not truly defined by old scrolls. It's defined by the practictioners...by my teacher, by me. When he uses me as uke and I end up in a tangle dheap on the floor...I know his ninjutsu is effective. When I can somehow approximate that, I know I'm learing.

All the other stuff is just window dressing, speculation or a waste of time (depending on your point of view). If you find ninjuutsu training to be rewarding and beneficial to your life...than get out and train. If not, go train in something else. No big deal. Life's too short.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Muawijhe]

Oh, I agree. It's not important to me, but the question was more phrased to those whom believe it to be important.

So I'll ask it again, with bluekey's added "so what?" to it. What happens next? So what? Why do you feel it is important to prove or not to prove it? What prevents you from just training in the art?

(and by 'you' I mean those who obviously have an issue with the il/legitamcy of it all)

 

[Bruno@MT]

I -don't- feel it is important either way. The scrolls won't prove anything to anyone. We already know Takamatsu sensei wrote the ones which are the source of controversy. When I train with more experienced people, there is no doubt in my mind that they know their stuff and said stuff is effective as hell. So that angle is covered.

For the 'ninjutsu' aspect, everything stands or falls with Takamatsu sensei. Do we believe him or not. The link I supplied holds a logical explanation which leads me to believe that Takamatsu sensei indeed believed he got a full transmission of said systems.

So while we don't have a bullet proof paper trail to prove without a shred of doubt that Togakure ryu existed and is a complete transmission of an ancient art, I am satisfied beyond 'reasonable' doubt that this is the case. It will always be impossible to verify. Beyond that, it comes down to the point: do you get out of the art what you want. And for me that is the case so beyond the intellectual challenge of the argument, this issue does not change anything for me either way.

 

[Cryozombie]

For the 'ninjutsu' aspect, everything stands or falls with Takamatsu sensei. Do we believe him or not. The link I supplied holds a logical explanation which leads me to believe that Takamatsu sensei indeed believed he got a full transmission of said systems.

So while we don't have a bullet proof paper trail to prove without a shred of doubt that Togakure ryu existed and is a complete transmission of an ancient art, I am satisfied beyond 'reasonable' doubt that this is the case.

Indeed, I think Takamatsu would have to have been a bit brilliant, (not saying he might not have been, just saying thats what it would take) with a lot of foresight in to the future to think "I better make sure that the fake ninja art I make up will hold up to scrutiny years from now when people have a better understanding the world over and will examine this" and contain only consistent information that applied correctly to the time period and region for which it was said to have developed, something that almost EVERY "fake" school that we run across has failed to be able to do, as has been pointed out before by other posters. That is, IMO, the most pressing evidence that the art is PROBABLY not made up.