Hwa rang Do - Kook Sul Won connection?

[glad2bhere]

BTW: Did we ever get an answer regarding the similarities or differences between the hyung used by the WHRDA and the WKSWA? Do both use the same Keecho hyung? How about advanced forms? Does anyone have any insights into who formulated the original forms or where they may have been derived from in either art? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[dohap]

Please, check and join my discussion with Bob D. under "the origin of HRD forms".

 

[Bob D.]

JKN75:

Although there is no confirmation, there have been two events that may reveal which monks IHS trained under. On the Korea trip in 2002, the Kuk Sool group stayed at the Bak Dahm Sa Temple. They were allowed to stay the night and the group was taught some meditation techniques. The second event was during the 2003 World Tournament. The Great Monk Cho, Oh Hyun visited the KSW Ranch, spoke at the Master's Demo and again at the Ranch the next day. I assume there would be some connection for the Great Monk to come to the US and allow outsiders into the temple for a night.

Did this monk offer any martial arts?

Do you know of the late master Moon?

 

[glad2bhere]

Monasteries are funny places.

Dr He-young Kimm sheparded a rather large group to a Son monastery a couple of years back. The group was treated to training in breathing techniques and there was a demo of a sort of MA. The reviews were somewhat mixed on the technical excellence of the performance. However, later Dr. Kimm confided that there were a number of very proficient practitioners who for one reason or another were reluctant to show their skills. From Dr. Kimms' report these gentlemen were very accomplished, and I would trust his assessment implicitly. I share this because I find some of the same retiscence on the part of Koreans to discuss much about the Chinese influences on the Korean arts. Its almost as though there is the "public face of KMA" that is put forward for mass consumption and then there is the very private side reserved for a select few. The Koreans have always been very isolative as a people. Guess there is no reason to think that character has changed just because they have been exposed to Western thought, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Zendokan]

The problem with the KMAs is the same with almost all native information of the land. Almost all of it was destroyed after the Japanese invasion and replaces by JMAs and the japanese version of the history...a well known tactic that we see appear in almost every war between etnic groups and countries. And if that wasn't enough the civil war that followed thour up the country and really destroyed the few things that had survived the Japanese occupation.

So after the civil war the koreans had to build up their country and try to resurrect their history, which was almost impossible.

The original KMAs were REcreated from old documents and a few very old persons who studied them before the Japanese invasion and maybe covert during the early years after the invasion.
That's why we speak nowadays of "modern" taekyon and not taekyon because it's a REcreation of how the koreans interpreted the documents.

The second methode was to koreanifate the foreign MAs, Shotokan karate became TSD and TKD, Aiki Ju Jutsu became Hapki Yu Sul and later Hapkido. Chuan Fa became Gwon Beop, Judo became Yudo, etc...

There's nothing wrong with both methodes but like most (asian) peoples they had a proudness and saying that you train in an Re-invented or a Koreanfided art (of your enemy) was really not done. So they invented lineages to their MAs to boost popularity, cultural awareness, etc...
Example:Everyone heard of the 2000 year old lineage of TKD.

Only the last decade this mentallity is changing and new created KMAs don't try to boost with a (fictional) linaege.

There are forrests destroyed for paper of the books with pro-linaeges debate, contra-linaege debate, facts and fictions.

Simple resumé is:

Aiki Ju Jutsu was renamed into Hapki Yu Sul.
Hapkido = Hapki Yu Sul + "Modern" Taekyon
Hwa Rang Do = Hapkido + Yudo
Kuk Sool Won = Hapkido + Kung-Fu (an animal style).

All the rest of (fictional) linaege, who trained with who and in what, doesn't matter nowadays (or shouldn't anyway).

Greetz,

Zendokan

 

[howard]

...Aiki Ju Jutsu became Hapki Yu Sul and later Hapkido...

...Aiki Ju Jutsu was renamed into Hapki Yu Sul... Hapkido = Hapki Yu Sul + "Modern" Taekyon...

I don't have much time now, but this is pretty far from demonstrably accurate.

If you have reliable evidence that Aikijujutsu (of which there are really only two known strains - Daito-ryu and Yanagi-ryu) is the basis of Hapkido, and that mainstream, modern Hapkido's kicks come from Taek Kyeon, please share it. You would resolve some gargantuan controversies in one stroke.

 

[arnisador]

Hapkido did come from aikijutsu, but the kicks are ultimately from Shotokan and similar JMAs, later modified.

 

[Zendokan]

...mainstream, modern Hapkido's kicks come from Taek Kyeon...

and it's Aiki Ju Jutsu from the Daito-Ryu linaege.

I said "Modern" Taekyon, the REcreation of Taekyon using the few documents and practisiners that survived. And those practisiners didn't start teaching new students since they were after the civil war very old, their knowdledge was writen down.
With only that information and a (shotokan) karate background they tried to REcreate Taekyon, that's why I said "modern" Taekyon, because except the name it is not an decendant of pre-occupation Taekyon.

You could take the example of American Football and Soccer:
The USA gets conquered, American Football gets replaced with Soccer and only this gets trained. Almost all documents concerning American Football get destroyed and the Starplayers get executed.
After +/- 55 years the USA gets free and want to recreate American Football by using a few documents that survived and some 70 year old second league players, well what will you get than...
an American Football like sport, played with a soccer ball and not the "egg-shaped" ball with passages that have to be kicked to each other instead of throwing.
It would still be a great sport but except the name it would have got nothing to do with pre-occupation American Football.

 

[howard]

Zendokan,

Nice analogy, but we still have no reliable evidence that Hapkido actually comes from Daito-ryu.

With respect to the Jujutsu-based material that Choi taught, there is strong suggestive evidence that it comes from either Daito-ryu or the Yoshida family art (which became Yanagi-ryu), but no proof.

If we compare the original yawara techniques that Choi taught (and that a few have stuck with) with Daito-ryu, we see both strong similarities and significant differences.

I can't speak about the kicking techniques that Ji and Kim added to Choi's yawara base, because the kwan I train in does not use them. But we do use ten basic kicks that Choi taught, and none of them is seen in Daito-ryu.

All we have at present to connect Choi's art to Daito-ryu are anectodal accounts. It is very well known that there are no known written records of Choi ever having trained under Takeda Sokaku.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that, at the very least, Choi was exposed to Daito-ryu. There are simply too many similarities between his original art and Daito-ryu for it to be attributable to chance. But, we still don't know.

 

[elder999]

Zendokan,

Nice analogy, but we still have no reliable evidence that Hapkido actually comes from Daito-ryu.

With respect to the Jujutsu-based material that Choi taught, there is strong suggestive evidence that it comes from either Daito-ryu or the Yoshida family art (which became Yanagi-ryu), but no proof.

If we compare the original yawara techniques that Choi taught (and that a few have stuck with) with Daito-ryu, we see both strong similarities and significant differences.

I can't speak about the kicking techniques that Ji and Kim added to Choi's yawara base, because the kwan I train in does not use them. But we do use ten basic kicks that Choi taught, and none of them is seen in Daito-ryu.

All we have at present to connect Choi's art to Daito-ryu are anectodal accounts. It is very well known that there are no known written records of Choi ever having trained under Takeda Sokaku.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that, at the very least, Choi was exposed to Daito-ryu. There are simply too many similarities between his original art and Daito-ryu for it to be attributable to chance. But, we still don't know.

I tried to shed what little light there is for this conversation once, with this post. Granted, it's anecdotal, but considering that it came from Kisshomaru Ueshiba, it's probably fairly reliable.

 

[Zendokan]

Dear Howard,

I agree with what you say on the fact that Choi was no "official" student of Daito-Ryu. And the statements that connect Choi to the grandmaster at that time of Daito-Ryu aren't sure if Choi was an adopted son or a servent. But he lived for 31 years with that grandmaster, this we now.

But I saw in your profile that you did Hapkido and Aiki Ju Jutsu.

I think you would agree with me that there excist alot of techniques of which you could say that they are unique to Daito-Ryu and his offspring styles. A sort of style fingerprint.
Well you can find that fingerprint from Daito-Ryu in Hakko-Ryu, Aikido and Hapkido.
All other Japanese Ju Jutsu-systems nowadays have the fingerprint of Shinto Tenshin-Ryu (every modern JJJ system, Judo and BJJ).

So the fingerprint proofs that Daito-Ryu is the ancestor-style of Hapkido, ofcourse Hapkido is different from Daito-Ryu thru evolution and adaption (Koreans are not Japanse, militairy use in an effective war, expotior to other korean systems, etc...), but the fingerprint techniques stayed.

And the truth of it all, we will never know, but is this important, Daito-Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu and Hapkido can excist perfectly side by side without being 100% eachother competitor.

With kind regards,

Zendokan

 

[howard]

Hello, Zendokan, thanks for your reply. I'd like to try to respond to some of your points if I might.

I agree with what you say on the fact that Choi was no "official" student of Daito-Ryu. And the statements that connect Choi to the grandmaster at that time of Daito-Ryu aren't sure if Choi was an adopted son or a servent. But he lived for 31 years with that grandmaster, this we now.

Actually, we don't know those things.

We know that Choi spent about 30 years in Japan. We know beyond any doubt that he learned a sophisticated form of Jujutsu that definitely has aiki techniques.

We know, from Choi's accounts to at least one of his long-time direct students, that Choi always maintained that while he was in Japan he learned Daito-ryu directly from Takeda Sokaku. We know further that he maintained that he taught exactly what he learned in Japan - without modification.

We don't know for a fact if Takeda actually taught him.

It is next to impossible that he was considered an "adopted", or surrogate, son of Takeda (by the way, the source of that story is highly suspect). He might have been Takeda's servant, but with the evidence available to us today, we can neither prove nor refute that hypothesis.

But I saw in your profile that you did Hapkido and Aiki Ju Jutsu.

Yes sir, that's right.

I think you would agree with me that there excist alot of techniques of which you could say that they are unique to Daito-Ryu and his offspring styles. A sort of style fingerprint.

Yes.

Well you can find that fingerprint from Daito-Ryu in Hakko-Ryu, Aikido and Hapkido... So the fingerprint proofs that Daito-Ryu is the ancestor-style of Hapkido, ofcourse Hapkido is different from Daito-Ryu thru evolution and adaption (Koreans are not Japanse, militairy use in an effective war, expotior to other korean systems, etc...), but the fingerprint techniques stayed.

With regard to Hakko-ryu and Aikido, there is no doubt about the link to Daito-ryu.

With regard to Hapkido, to repeat, we simply can't prove it.

I'd be elated to find proof that Choi learned Daito-ryu. I can tell you from first-hand experience that if you are fortunate enough to be able to find both a school that teaches the Jujutsu-based art that Choi taught when he returned to Korea (there aren't many - most teach the expanded art, with a strong focus on kicking, that can be traced back to Ji Han Jae), and a legitimate Daito-ryu school (of which there are very few in the US), and you train for a while in both, you will most likely conclude that Choi did learn Daito-ryu somehow.

But, as confounding as it is, we still can't prove it. Nor do we know who really taught him during all of those years in Japan.

Again, thanks for your reply.

All the best, Howard

 

[miguksaram]

"I post on history, and if you can show me examples of doing anything else, I'd appreciate you either show some posts or stop slamming me."

I am curious. When you say you post on history what references are you using. Example, if you say HRD is 2000 years old, what are the references you are using to back such a claim?

In regards to the Dosa, why did he only teach the Lees? What about the 57th or 56th leader? Did they only teach one person? If not then why don't we see other HRD systems besides Lee's? Lastly you make a lot of reference to JBL but very little to JSL, why is that? It was my understanding that JSL was the senior until he retired from teaching. Most of the "renegades" learned under JSL and had problems with JBL.

 

[shesulsa]

"I post on history, and if you can show me examples of doing anything else, I'd appreciate you either show some posts or stop slamming me."

I am curious. When you say you post on history what references are you using. Example, if you say HRD is 2000 years old, what are the references you are using to back such a claim?

In regards to the Dosa, why did he only teach the Lees? What about the 57th or 56th leader? Did they only teach one person? If not then why don't we see other HRD systems besides Lee's? Lastly you make a lot of reference to JBL but very little to JSL, why is that? It was my understanding that JSL was the senior until he retired from teaching. Most of the "renegades" learned under JSL and had problems with JBL.

I don't know if you realize this, but the post you're quoting is five years old and the account is closed.

:asian:

 

[miguksaram]

I don't know if you realize this, but the post you're quoting is five years old and the account is closed.

:asian:

Oopss...Well it has been a loooong time since I was a member and I just started reading the posts. Oh well. I already sort of know the answer he was going to give.