Hwa Rang Do

[Hwarang]

What board was that ?

>> the Tae Soo was an expansion of the Hwa Rang Art, <<

That is correct

>> that Joo Bang Lee had decided to put out there, to make HwaRang look that much more difficult. <<

That's stupid. Hwarang Do IS difficult, you don't need to teach another style to show that!

>> Sort of like a college program----you had to graduate high school before you could join. It was a marketing idea as well as a basics program. <<

Some styles chooses to simplify and make it easier to learn. Hwarang Do does not. But, because Hwarang Do IS difficult to learn if you don't have any previous experience, some Hwarang Do schools do require you start in Taesoodo before talking Hwarang Do.
Sort of like a college program----you have to graduate high school before you can join.

>> He wanted to concentrate on "higher level stuff" and didn't want to go through stances and blocks with every new beginner...So he created a simple tae soo program. <<

And yet, GM Joo Bang Lee also teaches Taesoodo ?

>> It was more along the lines of a TKD program.<<

Taesoo Do is much more hard style than Hwarang Do, but there are also lot's of soft movements, jointlocks, weapons. The forms are nothing like TKD forms. Basically the training is very different from TKD.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

<<the Tae Soo was an expansion of the Hwa Rang Art>>

Actually, this statement is incorrect. TaeSooDo was the name of Taekwondo before it became Taekwondo. in fact, the KTA originally stood for Korea Taesoodo Association; however, the name was forcibly changed by Maj. Gen. Choi.

My objection to this is that Joo Bang Lee has taken a name from documented history and made it his own. When I asked the organization about this, they were extremely rude and attempted to insinuate that I did not know what I was talking about. When I cited Korean sources, they basically disappeared.

I don't trust anyone who pirates history... its kinda like when Gore claimed he created the internet. I spose he never heard of DARPA net.

LOL.

 

[Hwarang]

Just because it is written the same way in English does not make it the same words.
The "Tae" character in "Taekwondo Taesoodo" is the same as in Taekwondo (to stomp in the ground).
The "Tae" character in "Hwarang Do Taesoodo" is the same as in Tai Chi (great).
They are different words with very different meanings.

>> My objection to this is that Joo Bang Lee has taken a name from documented history and made it his own. <<

"Hwarang Do Taesoodo" was created in 1990, "Taekwondo Taesoodo" was created in 1964 and used for a few months before the name was change to Korean Taekwondo Association.
Just because Taesoodo is written in English like the other word there is no reason why Joo Bang Lee shouldn't use it, is there?

>> When I asked the organization about this, they were extremely rude and attempted to insinuate that I did not know what I was talking about. When I cited Korean sources, they basically disappeared. <<

I've seen how much mail they recieve. But do post your sources here. You might want to take a look at
http://www.allmartialarts.com/KIXCO/History/history/map.htm and various pages om hwarangdo.com first though. You'll notice that the Chinese characters are different.

>> I don't trust anyone who pirates history... <<

Not the case.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Sir,

If they have changed their hangul, then i stand corrected. The last time I checked they had not. The translation I had was provided courtesy of a friend in USA intelligence and who spent 13 years on the DMZ as a Korean Interpreter.

The Hwarangdo leadership has pirated names from history, including the actualy name of the art, which was not taught by any Korean monk. In fact, Grandmaster Lee himself admitted, or as close to admitted this fact as one can get, I'm thinking in a black belt magazine. Bear in mind, that virtually all modern Korean history is pirated. They tried, historical fact, to erase the occupation. They have gone so far as to claim that certain things that took place did not, as have the Japanese. This was in USAToday a couple of months back over a textbook issue in which history was clearly modified. History is always written and re-written in favor of whoever has the most control's matrix and agenda.

There is no need for me to cite my sources, as they are readily available. Further, much of this is considered common knowledge. If you yourself wish to begin researching, I have no problem giving you some guidance as to where I looked.

Warmest regards,

 

[Hwarang]

USA intelligence or not, it's still wrong, they have never changed the word. Even the (original) logo shows the "great - Tae" character thater than the "to stomp in the ground, Taekwondo - Tae" http://www.hwarangdo.com/pics/logo2.gif

BTW, the confusion might come from only looking at the hangul which of course is pronounced the same, rather than the hanja (hangul = korean alphabet, hanja = Chinese characters, both are used in Korea). This is the reason why Chinese characters are almost always used together with the Korean alphabet.

>> The Hwarangdo leadership has pirated names from history, including the actualy name of the art, <<

Again the Do in the martial art Hwarang DO and the historical Hwarang DO are not the same. It's explained in details with both hanja and hangul here: http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd1.htm

>> which was not taught by any Korean monk. In fact, Grandmaster Lee himself admitted, or as close to admitted this fact as one can get, I'm thinking in a black belt magazine. <<

The articles are here: http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/00s.htm
Where does GM Lee say he did not learn from the monk?

>> Bear in mind, that virtually all modern Korean history is pirated. They tried, historical fact, to erase the occupation. They have gone so far as to claim that certain things that took place did not, as have the Japanese. <<

If we're talking martial arts I think it's the younger generations of masters and instructors who are hiding japanese influence. First generation masters, like GM Lee, have no problem explaining what is Japanese influence.

>> There is no need for me to cite my sources, as they are readily available. Further, much of this is considered common knowledge. If you yourself wish to begin researching, I have no problem giving you some guidance as to where I looked. <<

You are always welcome to post if you have questions or comments on Hwarang Do. I'm always happy to reply
:asian:

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Hwarang,

You are wrapped up in what your association teaches. In my short time in martial arts, I have learned not to do this; however, at this juncture, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. My intent is not to argue or to flame, just try and make sure that information passed is as accurate as possible. I would offer you this tidbit: Ask Joo Bang Lee, who Master Bae was.

 

[Hwarang]

Disagreement is fine. I'm actually going to LA in the end of the month, I'll ask GM Lee about GM Bae then.

>> You are wrapped up in what your association teaches. <<

What I know about Hwarang Do history is based on living two years in Korea, talking, and asking questions to many of the old masters, reading korean articles on Hwarang Do from the 60ies and 70ies, and of course most of the excisting original sources on the Silla Hwarang when I was in Korean studies.
You're still welcome to post your sources of knowledge on Hwarang Do.

When I link to hrd.com it's because I think it's stupid for me to write the same basic things over and over when it's already somewhere else.
If there is something people disagrees with after reading those links, then we can move on. No?

 

[Bob D.]

Hwarang, Can I have the names of some of these Korean Masters you spoke to in Korea? I'd really like to know for research.

 

[Bob D.]

BTT

 

[bujinclergy]

Hi,
I can only express my experience of HRD and trying to train in the art in Korea.
I went to Korea after a short battle with overseas duty assignment offices in the US Army offices in Washington DC. I was originally assigned to Pyon Taek but when I got in country I was shipped off to the 19th Support Division in ChunChon in the northeastern sector. This was early in 1978.
Between the main compound in Seoul and speaking to people out and around in Ie Tae Won there was the steady and repeated answer to my question "Where can I find a Hwa Rang Do Dojang?" the answer: "There is no such thing".
I had numerous instructors attempt to convince me to take TKD and Tang Soo Do but I was determined as I had read so much about it in the states.
When I arrived in Chun Chon the same answers. To the point Korean Nationals were teasing me. I did not live on post. I had command sponsorship and separate rations so I lived off post.
I was introduced to some Hapkido Instructors who were about 2 miles outside of base in Chun Chon. We were tested and visited by Ji Han Jae.
The training was friendly but just shy of gruesome. 3 hours every evening without fail and 1.5 on Sundays. I asked early on about Hwa Rang Do and my teacher said they were the same.
I asked for him to please explain and he said he would show me.
Those nights that I asked were very painful but only that. Heavier training and no words to answer other than "Hwarangdo-Hapkido Same"
Many months later I had a command transfer down to Seoul at the 121st Evac so I went to train on the Hapkido school on post.
I asked the head instructor in the very beginning about HRD and guess what he said... "HRD-HKD Same" and I got the same brutal workout.

It took quite a few years to figure out what was going on with the politics etc. Especially since before I went to Korea I had trained for a couple of years with Duk Soong Son in Tae Kwon Do in NYC. But in Korea people told me the never heard of him. (Guy is a TKD legend)

When I came home from the service I noticed that all the people that claimed they were doing Hapkido was something different from what I had learned in Korea. (very different - not just little changes) There was one instructor on the north side of LI NY that taught Kook Sool Won which looked very similar to what I had practiced but I wasn't comfortable in the environment, (He offered me a Nidan even without papers because I had trained in Korea, he knew my lineage and I knew the language a little, with the assumption I would catch up to his curriculum)

I got weird from the whole experience so I changed to the Okinawan arts because they were traditional and local to where I lived. (Matsubayashi SR)

I don't believe for one nano-second that there is anything different from Old original Hapkido and Hwarangdo in it's early stages. For many years there was no admitting to founding the art in 1960 on any HRD literature. Actually I'm glad to see that now as I believe that the split from HKD and founding a new art is the truth. (Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu to Hapkido to KSW and HRD)
What really got my shoulders shrugging was I had never looked at a Unique Publications HRD book till I got home from the service and guess what??? Those books look like all the stuff we did in class in Hapkido with regularity. Circular blocking, breathing, Ki, aerial rolls, and regular self defense techniques with a ton of kicks. The order of the books almost was the order of our classes.


:shrug: But I studied Hap-Ki-Do :shrug:

I can only share my experience of living in Korea and doing my study and quest there...
and my pain for questioning it

 

[miguksaram]

Please understand that my calling HRD history a farce is in no way calling the art itself weak. Bottomline is that the HRD history just doesn't synch up with Korean history in general. Hwarang warriors, were disbanned, due to the fear of them taking over the thrown. This came about becuase the King who disbanned the group was himself a hwarang warrior (I will check for the name of the king later if you would like). Once disbanned, they never went into the hills to practice their art in secret. They either became merchants, regular soldiers or bodygaurds. Nothing mystical about it.

Taesoodo is a entry level program for people who have no prior expierence in martial arts. Those who have experience in the arts can start taking HRD directly. So for the nieve it is a great way to grab a few more dollars from them. That is just my opinoin.

As far as my experience Currently I am a correspondence student under GM De Alba who was under GM Lee but has since split away and evolved the art.

 

[Bob D.]

I would still love to know more about these "Old Korean Masters" of HRD in Korea???

 

[miguksaram]

Good luck in finding information on them. I doubt very much you will find nothing past the Lee's.

 

[Hwarang]

>> I can only express my experience of HRD and trying to train in the art in Korea. <<

bujinclergy, your story rings a bell - are you the gentleman I wrote 5-6 years ago because he was promoting himself as a Hwarang Do master without any training in Hwarang Do?

Anyway,
>> repeated answer to my question "Where can I find a Hwa Rang Do Dojang?" the answer: "There is no such thing".<<

Sorry to say you've been had. There were and is Hwarang Do in Korea.

>> I don't believe for one nano-second that there is anything different from Old original Hapkido and Hwarangdo <<

And this is based on the books and ??

miguksaram:
>> Please understand that my calling HRD history a farce is in no way calling the art itself weak. <<

At least that's something.

>> Bottomline is that the HRD history just doesn't synch up with Korean history in general. Hwarang warriors (...) <<

That's a very interesting enterpertation of the history. I have *never* seen any evidence of what you say, and since I'm working on an update to http://www.hwarangdo.com/hwarang.htm, I would be very interested if you could post any sources.

>> Taesoodo is a entry level program for people who have no prior expierence in martial arts. Those who have experience in the arts can start taking HRD directly. So for the nieve it is a great way to grab a few more dollars from them. <<

Do you know anything about Taesoodo? Have you meet anyone practicing Taesodo, trained with anyone, seen anything? Very curious since you seem to be saying that people who train Taesoodo don't know anything and are being exploited by the nieve Hwarang Do people to grab a few $.
(I don't have my dictionary here, so I'm not sure what nieve means, but I get the picture).

>> Currently I am a correspondence student under GM De Alba <<

Enjoy your training.

 

[Hwarang]

>> I would still love to know more about these "Old Korean Masters" of HRD in Korea??? <<

If we're talking the first generations I can mention Grandmasters Joo Bang Lee (in the US) and Joo Sang Lee (in Korea), An Sang Duk (in Korea), Yoo Chan Kim (US), Park Yong Soo (Korea), and Kwon Lee (Korea). But since I lived in various Hwarang Dojangs for most of my two years in Korea I was fortunate to meet many great Hwarang Do people.

>> Good luck in finding information on them. I doubt very much you will find nothing past the Lee's. <<

Back in last millennium people could simply claim that Hwarang Do was created in America, and people would believe it. Now people can look at some of the old black and white photos from the 60ies online (http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/60s.html), or some of the 8mm videos (http://www.hwarangdo.com/videoclips.htm) and I think the discussion is pretty much over.

>> I would still love to know more about <<

I'll be pretty busy until next year, but I'll try to come back as often as possible.

 

[miguksaram]

Originally posted by Hwarang
>> Do you know anything about Taesoodo? Have you meet anyone practicing Taesodo, trained with anyone, seen anything? Very curious since you seem to be saying that people who train Taesoodo don't know anything and are being exploited by the nieve Hwarang Do people to grab a few $.
(I don't have my dictionary here, so I'm not sure what nieve means, but I get the picture).

" The martial art of Tae Soo Do® was created as the undergraduate program to Hwa Rang Do®. Since the Hwa Rang Do® curriculum is very advanced and complicated because there is so much learn, it was often difficult for an individual without previous martial skill training to progress through Hwa Rang Do®. The Tae Soo Do® syllabus is designed to build a foundation of physical skills as well as proper attitude for the nonexperienced practitioner. This program helps the student understand the fundamentals, basic mechanics, and philosophies inherent in Hwa Rang Do®.

Just paraphrasing what is written on your website. Never said people who practice it are not any good, I just said that the program was designed for people with no martial art background. To get pissy with me, get pissy with the person who wrote your website. Never put words in my mouth. People who know me, know that if I felt that it was crap, I would say so, I don't imply anything. BTW...glad you all decided to seperate your definition of Tae Soo Do from the original meaning.

>> Currently I am a correspondence student under GM De Alba <<

Enjoy your training.

I do sir. GM De Alba has definetly evolved the art to a higher level. Stop by his dojang and see for yourself.

As for the history...I would recommend any Korean College History Text book. That should be your start. Or look up the many Korean history links on the web. The site that I was getting informaiton from 6 years ago (http://koisnet.kois.go/kr/history/korean/I-chosun/pragmati.html) doesn't seem to be up anymore. I also could reference my wife who I have discussed history with (oh who is Korean born and raised, with an associates in Korean History). Add that with the fact that every time I've been to Korea, and asked about HRD, I received two basic answers, 1) Never heard of it or 2) Oh you mean hapkido. This was asking martial art instructors along with general people. Good luck and research hard. I would recommend starting with researching the different Kings of Korea and how they took over.

 

[Mithios]

My First Hapkido instructor, master Choi. Was training at the same time as Jo Bang lee and told me that master Lee trained with the Hapkido founder Young Sool Choi and that Lee received master rank from him. and that Hwarang Do is hapkido with extra weapon's and different uniform's. I trained in hwarang do and the techniques are the same as Hapkido and in the same order. The extra weapon's training is cool. Anyway a quick question. why would master lee call his other system Tae Soo Do when it is documented fact that Tae Soo Do was the name for korean karate in the early to middle 60's before being changed to TaeKwon-Do in 65. Before Tae Soo Do it Was called Tang Soo Do!Anyway i would think lee would want an original name. Mithios

 

[Hwarang]

>> Just paraphrasing what is written on your website. Never said people who practice it are not any good, I just said that the program was designed for people with no martial art background. <<

The quote means what it says on the website. Hwarang Do is very difficult to learn if you've never trained martial arts before. That does not make Taesoodo an "empty" system and I'm refering to "So for the nieve it is a great way to grab a few more dollars from them."

>> glad you all decided to seperate your definition of Tae Soo Do from the original meaning.<<

Not sure what you're saying, but guessing you're refering to The Korean Taesoodo Association from the 60ies?
If you are, the definition has always been clear. Even the (original) "Hwarang Do Taesoodo" logo clearly shows the Chinese characters (http://www.hwarangdo.com/pics/logo2.gif). More on this below.

>> definetly evolved the art to a higher level. <<
Haha - you probably need to know something about Hwarang Do before you can say anything like that.

>> every time I've been to Korea, and asked about HRD, I received <<
Next time you go, please send me an email and I'll point you in the right direction.

>> Good luck and research hard. I would recommend starting with researching the different Kings of Korea and how they took over. <<

Thanks. Actually I'm "Magister in Korean Studies" from University of Copenhagen, which would be somewhere between an American ph.d. and m.a. I was mostly interested in the 3 Kingdoms Period, what area did your wife study?
If you're interested in Hwarang history http://www.hwarangdo.com/hwarang.htm are translations of the original sources, no intrepretation. But there is *no* support for your claim that "Hwarangdo history is farce", rather it synch up with Korean history very well.

Mithios:
>> Anyway a quick question. why would master lee call his other system Tae Soo Do when it is documented fact that Tae Soo Do was the name for korean karate <<

I actually answered that question in this thread on 11-12-2002 03:45 PM
Quoting me:
"(it's the) same pronounciation and same spelling in western letters, but very different Chinese characters.
The Korean Taesoodo Association was formed in 1964 when Taekwondo was beeing united from the Kongsoodo, Tangsoodo etc associations, but already in 1965 the name was changed from Taesoodo to Taekwondo. The "Tae" character in this association was the same "Tae" as in Taekwondo (to stomp/trample).
The "Tae" character in the "Hwarangdo Taesoodo" means "great", the same character as in Taeguk Kwon/Taichi Chuan."

So Taesoodo is definitely an original name. Just because an obscure organisation briefly used a (different) name with the same English pronounciation 40 years ago we can't use the (different) name?

>> My First Hapkido instructor, master Choi. Was training at the same time as Jo Bang lee and told me that <<

You probably don't know it, but those 4 sentences are both very interesting, and at the same time tells me a lot about the history of your style.
Anyway, you're welcome to start a new thread on HRD><HKD, and I'll post why Hwarang Do is not Hapkido. As mentioned above I'll be pretty busy until next year, but I'll try to come back as often as possible.

 

[jkn75]

Originally posted by Mithios
My First Hapkido instructor, master Choi. Was training at the same time as Jo Bang lee and told me that master Lee trained with the Hapkido founder Young Sool Choi and that Lee received master rank from him. and that Hwarang Do is hapkido with extra weapon's and different uniform's.

I think at different times the founders of the various modern Korean Arts all trained together at one point. It is very unclear what everyone's relationship was.

I trained in hwarang do and the techniques are the same as Hapkido and in the same order. The extra weapon's training is cool.

I have heard these same things about Kuk Sool Won and Han Moo Do. I train in Kuk Sool Won and have known some Hapkido black belts who have said that the under black belt curricula are similar but at black belt they diverge. Does anyone have a similar experience with HwaRangDo and Hapkido as Mithios? Does anyone know if the black belt curriculum in Hwa Rang Do diverges at Black Belt from other arts?

 

[Mithios]

Thank's for the info on the Tae Soo Do as developed by jo Bang Lee ! I did not know they were using different writing. Also I read the b.b. magazine article from 2000, and it say's the same thing my instructor told me. Hun Jae ji and Jo Bang Lee getting there rank at the same time from Young Sool Choi etc. I had thought master Lee was not admiting he trained in Hapkido. Oh well i was wrong.The good thing is if a person can't find a Hwa Rang Do dojang, they can train in HapKiDo or vice a versa. and still be able to keep up on the core techniques, joint lock's,control hold's, throw's etc. Thank's for the info, Mithios