Hwa Rang Do

[pknox]

Originally posted by Mithios
The good thing is if a person can't find a Hwa Rang Do dojang, they can train in HapKiDo or vice a versa. and still be able to keep up on the core techniques, joint lock's,control hold's, throw's etc.

They may be similar, but they are definitely not the same. For example, you would be missing out on a whole lot of weapons training. I have seen Hapkido dojangs train in staff, what looks like an escrima stick, a smaller stick similar to the "pocket stick" used in some FMA schools, cane, belt, and kumdo sword (shinai for the kendoka out there). There may be other weapons out there, but HWD studies quite a few more than that. As the weapons work is taught as an extension of the unarmed work, there may be concepts that you would be missing. Once at higher black sash levels, the HWD curriculum gets even more complex, bringing in some techniques from the Sulsa, and also incorporating healing arts such as acupuncture, moxibustion, and acupressure. It is quite possible that there are Hapkido dojangs that do this too - I have just never seen one.

Be careful. Training in the "core techniques" of an art may be useful to someone who is going to be away from their art for a time, plans to return, and needs to keep fresh in the interim - however, any art really shouldn't be learned on an a la carte basis. If that is done, you run the risk of passing an incomplete curriculum down to future practitioners, and therefore diluting the art. This is part of the origin of the criticism often aimed at "sporting styles" like TKD or Judo - many people criticize them as arts that only contain competition techniques. If you study the art with an instructor who approaches it in an a la carte fashion, that may be true. However, if you take in the whole art, there is much more to it than that.

 

[bujinclergy]

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[Doc]

Originally posted by arnisador
I remember when Hwa Rang Do was the hot thing--the series of books by Joo Bang Lee and of course the Michael Echanis phenomenon (I do have the books). It's interesting to see what has become of it; Joo Sang Lee evidently retired from the martial arts leaving Joo Bang Lee with all of Hwa Rang Do. They have added an "undergraduate" art, Tae Soo Do, pre-black belt. Meanwhile a former student has a site with a warning to members of the official Hwa Rang Do organization and many tales told out of school.

Does anyone here practice this art?

I remember when the Lee Brothers were black belts in Hap-Ki-Do under Sea Oh Choi. When Choi constantly showed displeasure at what they were teaching, they changed the name and became "Masters." Not hearsay, I was there and remember it well. That mural on the wall in Huntington Park used to say "Hap Ki Do."

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Doc:

".......I remember when the Lee Brothers were black belts in Hap-Ki-Do under Sea Oh Choi. When Choi constantly showed displeasure at what they were teaching, they changed the name and became "Masters." Not hearsay, I was there and remember it well. That mural on the wall in Huntington Park used to say "Hap Ki Do."........"

Since you were there, maybe you could help to clarify something for me. When you said that Choi "constantly showed displeasure at what they were teaching" could you distinguish something for me? Was the displeasure directed at the content of what they were teaching, or towards the manner in which it was being taught? I know this must seem like splitting hairs but I think its important because so many separate styles seem to have more to do with teaching priorities than actual curriculum. When I look at techniques executed by early Hapkido people the ultimate performance is similar but the attendant moves are often very different. Any help you can provide would be appreciated.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Bob D.]

I remember when the Lee Brothers were black belts in Hap-Ki-Do under Sea Oh Choi. When Choi constantly showed displeasure at what they were teaching, they changed the name and became "Masters." Not hearsay, I was there and remember it well. That mural on the wall in Huntington Park used to say "Hap Ki Do

What year was this? where?

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by glad2bhere
When you said that Choi "constantly showed displeasure at what they were teaching" could you distinguish something for me? Was the displeasure directed at the content of what they were teaching, or towards the manner in which it was being taught?

Bruce:

Are you asking whether the conflict was over the method by which the content itself was being taught, or whether it was a "personality conflict", either over teaching styles or some other, non teaching-related matter?

 

[Doc]

We're talking mid-sixties before Han came over. Choi expressed to us they were "doing things wrong" and expressed that we should show them what they were doing was "not good." He urged us to be "vigorous" (my word) in our interaction with those students in Huntington Park.

I'm afraid I cannot distinguish between their method of teaching, and what they were teaching as the source of Choi's displeasure. All I know is he was very adamant, and resulted in a split. I also should clarify I do not know whether they left or were asked to leave. I'll ask one of the students if he remembers when I see him.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by pknox
For example, you would be missing out on a whole lot of weapons training. I have seen Hapkido dojangs train in staff, what looks like an escrima stick, a smaller stick similar to the "pocket stick" used in some FMA schools, cane, belt, and kumdo sword (shinai for the kendoka out there).

I remember the first time I ever saw a set of nuchauku. Choi showed them to us in class and demonstrated their effectiveness as a control tool and used them to throw.

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by Doc
I remember the first time I ever saw a set of nuchauku. Choi showed them to us in class and demonstrated their effectiveness as a control tool and used them to throw.

Good point, and a very cool story! However, it seems that for some reason, most Hapkido schools don't teach them. That is a shame, especially if it is something familiar to the art, due to the lineage. It really can be a rather useful weapon, especially in the way you described in your post. I wonder why HRD decided to incorporate them, but so few Hapkido schools do? Could it have been simply as a way to differentiate themselves, or actually a throwback to the more "traditional" Hapkido (through DRAJJ) curicculum?

 

[glad2bhere]

"......Are you asking whether the conflict was over the method by which the content itself was being taught, or whether it was a "personality conflict", either over teaching styles or some other, non teaching-related matter?....."

Yes, pretty much. When it comes to HwaRangdo, Kuk Sool Won, Sin Mu and a lot of other "versions" of early Choi material there is always much made of the similarities among the techniques. I agree that they seem to share general biomechanics, but there is often vairations among different ways of executing a specific technique. Its generally known that, though these originators of various "styles" worked around and about the same time, they couldn't seem to make a go of working together. If Choi found pleasure/displeasure with what his students were doing I would be interested to know what he was responding to. Was it their manner of teaching? Was it the order in which they introduced the material to their students? Was it the context in which they represented their skills? Was it their goals in teaching? For myself I never seem to get a straight answer out of sources about this time in history, but certainly there is enough evidence to suggest that everybody had their own idea of how things were to be done. Maybe too many cooks with their fingers in the soup, or maybe it was just too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Bob D.]

Lee, Joo Sang started the Huntington Park school in 1968. Bob Duggan was one of the first to enroll there. He was studying at another school a few blocks away and joined Joo Sang's "Hapkido" school almost right away (yes, it was called Hapkido at the time). He was there consistantly thru the four years at which time Lee Joo Bang came to America in 1972.
Doc, Joo Sang was affiliated with Choi thru thier superiors in Korea, but I don't think he was necessarily "under" him. He was at least a 5th degree and possibly 6th.
Bob Duggan and Vicente Montenegro where both full time students at Huntington park all thru this time and they do not recall ever having Choi and his students visit for training. It may have happened, but Duggan says he never saw it.
I would like to hear more of what you or your fellow students remember of that period.
Regards, Bob Donnelly