Hsing i/Zing yi - a Root of Karate

[Kung Fu Wang]

Judo yeah sure perhaps from shuaijiao but through sumo ?

Do Sumo look similar to these ancient SC pictures?

Yuan Dynasty (1277 ~ 1367).

Ming Dynasty (1368 ~ 1644).

Ching Dynasty (1644 ~ 1911).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I know you view Taiji applications quite from your wrestling(shuaijiao) background. But how would you think about XYQ to fit in with that ? Is it mere a striking method or do you see “wrestling” potential in it too? Your previous Hengquan vid suggest so.?

It's not proper to say a MA system has throwing skill if that system only has 1 or 2 throws, Both XY and Taiji may contain

撞(Zhuang) - Trunk hitting,
靠(Kao) - Advance squeeze.

But as far as the hip throw (mother of all throws) and leg skill (such as shin bite, scoop, sticky lift, sweep, leg twist, leg lift, leg block, front cut, sickle hook, inner hook, outer hook, ...) are all missing in both systems.

The funny thing is, Taiji contain "firemen's carry" (snake creep down). But some Taiji people don't even want to admit it. Taiji people think the throwing skill is low level skill (this is a big insult to the throwing art), and they feel ashamed to have anything to do with the throwing art.

IMO, Taiji people and SC people don't live on the same planet.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Ming Dynasty (1368 ~ 1644).

I thought this was from the Kama Sutra.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It's not proper to say a MA system has throwing skill if that system only has 1 or 2 throws, Both XY and Taiji may contain

撞(Zhuang) - Trunk hitting,
靠(Kao) - Advance squeeze.

But as far as the hip throw (mother of all throws) and leg skill (such as shin bite, scoop, sticky lift, sweep, leg twist, leg lift, leg block, front cut, sickle hook, inner hook, outer hook, ...) are all missing in both systems.

The funny thing is, Taiji contain "firemen's carry" (snake creep down). But some Taiji people don't even want to admit it. Taiji people think the throwing skill is low level skill (this is a big insult to the throwing art), and they feel ashamed to have anything to do with the throwing art.

IMO, Taiji people and SC people don't live on the same planet.

Talked with one of Yang Jwing Ming's students, who helped at his seminars, about the different groups at the seminars. He said the Qigong people were a little spacey, the Taijiquan people were pretty level headed, the Long Fist folks were a bit rough, and the qinna folks belonged in prison

There is a lot of Shuaijiao in Taijiquan, a lot of Qinna too. But there was a group that came through my shifu's school that were offended is I even talked about taijiquan and martial arts in the same sentence..... Also had a lady walk out of a class I was teaching when I answered another students question about martial arts...she looked at me and said "I'm here to learn TAI CHI!!!! Not KARATE!!! and she stormed out and never returned.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I even talked about taijiquan and martial arts in the same sentence..... Also had a lady walk out of a class I was teaching when I answered another students question about martial arts...she looked at me and said "I'm here to learn TAI CHI!!!! Not KARATE!!! and she stormed out and never returned.

I have the same experience too. When I taught the Austin Community College Taiji class, during the 1st class, I taught the Taiji basic stances (horse, bow-arrow, empty, 7 star, ...), a guy stood up and said, "This is not Taiji" and left.

I truly don't know how some Taiji people may think about MA.

 

[windwalker099]

When I work with people learning taiji.

If they talk about health and such things, I'm always sure to recommend other teachers' who focus on those aspects.
Nothing wrong with that for those who do, IMO.

Just seems like if that's the case why not just practice a moving type of qi gong...
Would be more direct, clear in purpose and expected outcome..

 

[Same Trick]

Do Sumo look similar to these ancient SC pictures?

Yuan Dynasty (1277 ~ 1367).

View attachment 31563

Ming Dynasty (1368 ~ 1644).

View attachment 31564

Ching Dynasty (1644 ~ 1911).

View attachment 31565

Those depictions of ancient Chinese shuaijiao are interesting, specifically in the way the boys are “dressed” just as todays sumo combatants, modern Chinese shuaijiao are fully dressed in almost as an Japanese judo-gi, even the Mongolians wear a jacket like thing but made of leather.

Maybe the Japanese Sumo is the actual preserver of the ancient Chinese wrestling tradition ?

With that one can also wonder if karate is to an extent upholding some of the original origin of XYQ, there of their similarities

And perhaps Judo inspired modern shuaijiao dress code

 

[Same Trick]

It's not proper to say a MA system has throwing skill if that system only has 1 or 2 throws, Both XY and Taiji may contain

撞(Zhuang) - Trunk hitting,
靠(Kao) - Advance squeeze.

But as far as the hip throw (mother of all throws) and leg skill (such as shin bite, scoop, sticky lift, sweep, leg twist, leg lift, leg block, front cut, sickle hook, inner hook, outer hook, ...) are all missing in both systems.

The funny thing is, Taiji contain "firemen's carry" (snake creep down). But some Taiji people don't even want to admit it. Taiji people think the throwing skill is low level skill (this is a big insult to the throwing art), and they feel ashamed to have anything to do with the throwing art.

IMO, Taiji people and SC people don't live on the same planet.

Taiji as you say, yes sure plenty shuaijiao stuff to find in there, my Yangtaijiteacher is also since childhood a SJ practitioner all his taiji application work is is related to SJ, plenty of all that leg skill you mention, it’s very interesting practice, but the fireman carry I’ve not experienced from his teaching.

However sure I can imagine fireman’s carry as a possible SCD app .

 

[isshinryuronin]

Maybe the Japanese Sumo is the actual preserver of the ancient Chinese wrestling tradition

Two arguments that can be made against this theory. Sumo is steeped in Shinto tradition, a distinctly Japanese religion if I'm not mistaken. And its history in Japan goes back over 1300 years.

 

[Same Trick]

I have the same experience too. When I taught the Austin Community College Taiji class, during the 1st class, I taught the Taiji basic stances (horse, bow-arrow, empty, 7 star, ...), a guy stood up and said, "This is not Taiji" and left.

I truly don't know how some Taiji people may think about MA.

Can be weird the other way too. A wushu teacher in my home country’s hometown, a Chinese guy, and very skilled practitioner and teacher, he was holding an introduction exhibition for upcoming classes, a guy who I know was a student of another Taiji school(Earle montague line) came forward and asked if the Wushu teacher knew the Yang Luchan fighting form, the teacher answered no, what is that ?!

The guy said, if he didn’t knew the YLC fighting form the teacher didn’t know TJQ and quickly left.

 

[Same Trick]

Two arguments that can be made against this theory. Sumo is steeped in Shinto tradition, a distinctly Japanese religion if I'm not mistaken. And its history in Japan goes back over 1300 years.

If sumo goes that far back in time, on can speculate it inspired the development of Chinese wrestling.
There actually been Japanes sword schools of which came to migrate to China and became Chinese

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There actually been Japanes sword schools of which came to migrate to China and became Chinese

The Chinese 苗刀 Miao_Dao look similar to the Japanese sword. Not sure the relationship between both.

 

[Same Trick]

It was brought forward that there’s absolutely no factual evidence of a Karate/XYQ connection, it was argued they’re so far from each other it’s an impossible theory to connect them.

However that is not true, I mean that there’s no possibility of connection. Even the most un-scholarly can understand that there for long time been connection between Okinawa and China, in fact quite tight connections. Back when Okinawa was its own kingdom it preferred tight connection with China rather than with Japan, its know fact that okinawans regularly travelled to and had settlements in China, same is true the other way around with Chinese settlement in Okinawa, its documented history goes back to the late 1300’s.

And here we are maybe not exactly within the time frame but still near after the legendary Yue Fei supposedly created or lay the foundation for XYQ

Also an interesting fact that may have nothing to do with XYQ but still interesting in the sense of Okinawan/japanese MA connection with CMA to speculate with -
The legendary karate master Sokon Matumura and official of the Okinawan kingdom traveled as an envoy at least two times to China one of those two times took him to Beijing. His position head and instructor of the Okinawan royal guard. In Beijing meeting with representatives of the Qing government it’s said Matsumura was asked to demonstrate some martial art, he demonstrated sword art, Matsumura was master of the jigen-ryu sword school.
Interesting too is that Matsumura was contemporary with Yang Luchan whom is said to have had a similar position as martial arts instructor within the Qing royal court - Could they both have met ?



Before anyone jump to conclusions, my post is meant as fun theorizing on possibilities based on fact

 

[Same Trick]

The Chinese 苗刀 Miao_Dao look similar to the Japanese sword. Not sure the relationship between both.

The Japanese style sword is most probably derived from China at som point back in history. Later in Japan there sprung forth many sword/fencing schools, some such school came to get a foothold in China brought there by Japanese pirates who roamed the Chinese coastline

 

[isshinryuronin]

The Chinese 苗刀 Miao_Dao look similar to the Japanese sword. Not sure the relationship between both.

It lacks the distinctive curve (sori) of the Japanese shinken blade (Samurai sword) and from what the video shows, is wielded completely different. The movement is nothing like kenjutsu/iai. I think the actual construction of shinken was a guarded secret with very few having the necessary skill to make one. So, they are different in form, use and construction. Probably very little or no relationship. Gyakuto may be able to detail this further.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have the same experience too. When I taught the Austin Community College Taiji class, during the 1st class, I taught the Taiji basic stances (horse, bow-arrow, empty, 7 star, ...), a guy stood up and said, "This is not Taiji" and left.

I truly don't know how some Taiji people may think about MA.

Most come to taijiquan these days thinking of it only as a moving meditation, a way to improve balance, a peaceful retreat, for health..... They don't even know it is a martial art and many don't want to know. My shifu and I had a discussion, has to be over 25 years ago now, where he told me he had retired from teaching taijiquan and now only would teach the forms....since all people seemed to want was to learn the long form, call themselves master, and go teach it....I was also told during that discussion I was his last serious student...

I fought it a long time to no avail, but if I ever teach again, I have no plan to teach the martial side since no one wants to know it. If a student asks, I will teach them, but in general, I will not do it these days.

 

[Same Trick]

It lacks the distinctive curve (sori) of the Japanese shinken blade (Samurai sword) and from what the video shows, is wielded completely different. The movement is nothing like kenjutsu/iai. I think the actual construction of shinken was a guarded secret with very few having the necessary skill to make one. So, they are different in form, use and construction. Probably very little or no relationship. Gyakuto may be able to detail this further.

The Miao-dao had its hey day all the way back to Tang-dynasty, it probably was the inspiration for the Japanese sword.

Later it was kind of “lost” in China. The miao-dao practice we see today is a reconstruction/ reinvention of just a few record’s survived from ancient times

 

[Xue Sheng]

It was brought forward that there’s absolutely no factual evidence of a Karate/XYQ connection,

There is no historically verifiable connection

it was argued they’re so far from each other it’s an impossible theory to connect them.

Who argued this, as far as I can tell, no one in this discussion has

However that is not true, I mean that there’s no possibility of connection. Even the most un-scholarly can understand that there for long time been connection between Okinawa and China, in fact quite tight connections. Back when Okinawa was its own kingdom it preferred tight connection with China rather than with Japan, its know fact that okinawans regularly travelled to and had settlements in China, same is true the other way around with Chinese settlement in Okinawa, its documented history goes back to the late 1300’s.

Even the most unscholarly of us know this professor, this is not new to most. There is even a connection between Karate and Chinese martial arts, just not Xingyiquan. But, professor, the more scholarly of us know there are more connections between China and Japan than just martial arts. Buddhism connects them around the 6th century and of course there were the Mongol invasions during the Yuan dynasty. There was also a serious scholarly discussion about a possible connection between China and Japan as early as the Qin dynasty. There were even talk of an archeological expidition in Japan. And then there is the writing system.....

Now for the record if it were not for a divorce I went through I would have a degree in Chinese studies. But the divorce forced me into something to make money quicker, so I ended up in IT...so can we agree to stop the passive aggressive attack stuff now....

And here we are maybe not exactly within the time frame but still near after the legendary Yue Fei supposedly created or lay the foundation for XYQ

Legendary yes, connection is questionable, many Chinese systems are linked to historical figures in China. Taijiquan to Zhang Sanfeng for example. However, unlike Yue Fei, there there is no actual historically verifiable evidence Zheng Sanfeng ever existed at all. Its a great sales pitch though to get people to train a system

Also an interesting fact that may have nothing to do with XYQ but still interesting in the sense of Okinawan/japanese MA connection with CMA to speculate with -
The legendary karate master Sokon Matumura and official of the Okinawan kingdom traveled as an envoy at least two times to China one of those two times took him to Beijing. His position head and instructor of the Okinawan royal guard. In Beijing meeting with representatives of the Qing government it’s said Matsumura was asked to demonstrate some martial art, he demonstrated sword art, Matsumura was master of the jigen-ryu sword school.
Interesting too is that Matsumura was contemporary with Yang Luchan whom is said to have had a similar position as martial arts instructor within the Qing royal court - Could they both have met ?

Yang Luchan may have meant him or even taught him, but to be equally as speculative, likely not his Yang Style that he taught to others.

He did not teach the full system to Wu Quanyou. He taught Wu how to defend, not how to attack. Which is why Wu is so good at the Yin side. The offensive stuff comes from the MA he knew previously, which is likely why many Wu postures look a lot more like pure Long Fist. As my Yang Shifu stated Yang Luchan was Han, Wu Quanyu was Manchu, and teaching ones enemies hoe to attack you is not a good idea. My guess he wouldf have felt the same about someone from Japan

Before anyone jump to conclusions, my post is meant as fun theorizing on possibilities based on fact

Thank you and yes I know

 

[Same Trick]

Xue Sheng

Wrote -

“But, professor, the more scholarly of us know there are more connections between China and Japan than just martial arts. Buddhism connects them around the 6th century and of course there were the Mongol invasions during the Yuan dynasty. There was also a serious scholarly discussion about a possible connection between China and Japan as early as the Qin dynasty. There were even talk of an archeological expidition in Japan. And then there is the writing system.....”

Nothing to argue against that, however thread is about possible historical root of karate in XYQ, and as so we must look to historical Okinawa, which was its own kingdom as I wrote previously. Karate is a fairly new thing to Japan(mainland”)introduced by Okinawans about a hundred yrs ago

 

[Xue Sheng]

Nothing to argue against that, however thread is about possible historical root of karate in XYQ, and as so we must look to historical Okinawa, which was its own kingdom as I wrote previously. Karate is a fairly new thing to Japan introduced by Okinawas about a hundred yrs ago

what the heck did the Japanese sword guy and Yang Luchan have to do with it.. that you brought in...Why not tell Kung Fu Wang that Shuaijiao Sumo and Judo have nothing to do with it and get him back on track... and just so you know, bolding text can be takin as yelling at someone on a forum...so stop yelling at me... a discussion does on ocassoin drift, has for years on MT. Sorry I know more about it than you would like

additionally, the way you quoted that in your response made it look like I posted the above, and I most certainly did not post that, you did