Hsing i/Zing yi - a Root of Karate

[Kung Fu Wang]

1. 
   The back stance/ kokutsu dachi is held weight distribution 30/70..if that what you men 3-7 ?, its a common stance.

The Karate back stance uses 4-6 stance (wider stance). It's different from the XY 3-7 stance (narrow stance). That 10% difference on weight distribution makes the XY system different from other CMA system (such as the long fist system).

The advantage of the 3-7 stance are:

- harder for foot sweep.
- faster footwork.
- better groin protection.
- since the back foot is facing 45 degrees forward, it's a better "ready to spring forward" stance (the 4-6 stance back foot is 90 degree instead).
- ...

IMO, the 3-7 stance is the best "fighting stance". It's only used (or emphasized) in the XY system. The XY 3-7 stance is not used in the CMA long fist, Baji, praying mantis, Taiji, Bagua, white crane, CLF, Hong Ga, ...

3-7 stance:

4-6 stance (please check the back foot angle):

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think Wang's post #58 is way too generalized and often inaccurate. Same Trick did a very good job responding from a karate viewpoint, so I'll just detail a few points he listed.

When Karate guy makes an upward block, his body usually is not moving forward.

Some Okinawan styles are aggressive and will block while moving in, or in at an angle.

XY dragon coordinates palm strike and kick at the same time (such as left Pi Quan and right kick at the same time). Also not addresses in Karate.

Striking and kicking at the same time is present in karate and can be found in Pinan kata #1 or #2 (depending on style) Kusanku kata and likely others.

XY uses dynamic punches. Karate usually uses static punches.

I'd say karate uses both. In a full stepping thrust punch contact is made with the rear foot planted. When slide stepping in and doing a reverse punch, the rear foot is moving forward. There are many ways in coordinating the feet.

7. Karate has strong influence from the southern CMA system white crane. The XY system is the northern CMA system.

Yes, southern Fujian systems play a major part. However, there is recent evidence of northern Shaolin influence as well, namely Arahat/Monk fist/Luohanquan. One possible venue of transmission is that during the 1500 and 1600's the north China temple was destroyed several times during wars with some of the monks fleeing to the south temple.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes, southern Fujian systems play a major part. However, there is recent evidence of northern Shaolin influence as well, namely Arahat/Monk fist/Luohanquan. One possible venue of transmission is that during the 1500 and 1600's the north China temple was destroyed several times during wars with some of the monks fleeing to the south temple.

The XY system came from general Yue Fei. It has nothing to do with the northern Shaolin temple. The only northern CMA system went to south is the Hong Quan system.

Some Okinawan styles are aggressive and will block while moving in, or in at an angle.

Do you have any video that when a Karate guy uses upward block, his back foot is still sliding forward on the ground (dynamic punch).

We are talking about training and not sparring here.

 

[Same Trick]

Proof of your claim of location=, which I am doubting a little....

But whatever, you want to hide, so be it.

I will not waste anymore time on your unfounded claims, misrepresentation of styles, nor will I allow you to waste anymore of my time

Yes I understood you playing detective, but your doing in vain, I live in Huainan/Anhui province, done so for about 8 years by now, nothing to hide here

 

[Same Trick]

The XY system came from general Yue Fei. It has nothing to do with the northern Shaolin temple. The only northern CMA system went to south is the Hong Quan system.


Do you have any video that when a Karate guy uses upward block, his back foot is still sliding forward on the ground (dynamic punch).

We are talking about training and not sparring here.

The Yue Fei theory is not at all well documented, too far back in history, however if I not misremember what I’ve read before Yue Fei’s “XYQ” was called Yiquan ?(not same as Wang Xiangzhai’s YQ)
The most reliable origin source lies with Ji Longfeng, who hailed from Henan province and supposedly reside a while at Shaolin and his boxing there was named Xinyiba, outside Shaolin and around in Henan province it became known as Xinyi, later in Shanxi and Hebei became known as Xingyi

 

[Same Trick]

The Karate back stance uses 4-6 stance (wider stance). It's different from the XY 3-7 stance (narrow stance). That 10% difference on weight distribution makes the XY system different from other CMA system (such as the long fist system).

The advantage of the 3-7 stance are:

- harder for foot sweep.
- faster footwork.
- better groin protection.
- since the back foot is facing 45 degrees forward, it's a better "ready to spring forward" stance (the 4-6 stance back foot is 90 degree instead).
- ...

IMO, the 3-7 stance is the best "fighting stance". It's only used (or emphasized) in the XY system. The XY 3-7 stance is not used in the CMA long fist, Baji, praying mantis, Taiji, Bagua, white crane, CLF, Hong Ga, ...

3-7 stance:

View attachment 31538

4-6 stance (please check the back foot angle):

View attachment 31537

Weight distribution of the “back stance” is not set in stone, it may vary from style to style in karate, also so within different XYQ linages, but 30/70% is a common view

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In order to compare XY with Karate, we need to look at the XY DNA.

Most of the MA systems (include Karate) use exhale to emphasize the punch. But XY system is different. The XY system doesn't train exhale but train inhale. When you pull back your XY punch, you use "heavy inhale". This kind of "light out and heavy back, long exhale and short inhale" is the XY system DNA.

In other words, the Karate "Kiai" is the opposite of the XY "light exhale and strong inhale" principle (XY DNA).

 

[Same Trick]

In order to compare XY with Karate, we need to look at the XY DNA.

Most of the MA systems (include Karate) use exhale to emphasize the punch. But XY system is different. The XY system doesn't train exhale but train inhale. When you pull back your XY punch, you use "heavy inhale". This kind of "light out and heavy back, long exhale and short inhale" is the XY system DNA.

In other words, the Karate "Kiai" is the opposite of the XY "light exhale and strong inhale" principle (XY DNA).

View attachment 31548

I agree, the exhale longer than inhale. However in my practice it’s not conscious focus on the breath, but rather comes naturally by conscious use of “pull” and “push” visualizations.
And this method I’ve not experienced in karate practice.
This breath eventually lead to “breathing through skin”.
However, in some traditional Karate kata breath is done sequence wise not individual technique/move wise and so the “long” out breath method gets involved.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Another XY DNA is also interested.

In XY system, the training and application are different.

- In training, your body pushes shoulder, shoulder pushes elbow, elbow pushes hand.
- In application your elbow chases your hand, shoulder chases elbow, body chases shoulder.

A good example of "body chase arm" can be:

- A mosquito flies over your head. Your both palms extends and smash that mosquito.

Not sure if we can find this XY DNA in Karate.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I agree, the exhale longer than inhale. However in my practice it’s not conscious focus on the breath, but rather comes naturally by conscious use of “pull” and “push” visualizations.

So since the normal Inspiratory:expiratory ratio is 1:3-1:5, you just breathe normally.

This breath eventually lead to “breathing through skin”.

What does this even mean?

 

[Same Trick]

Another XY DNA is also interested.

In XY system, the training and application are different.

- In training, your body pushes shoulder, shoulder pushes elbow, elbow pushes hand.
- In application your elbow chases your hand, shoulder chases elbow, body chases shoulder.

A good example of "body chase arm" can be:

- A mosquito flies over your head. Your both palms extends and smash that mosquito.

Not sure if we can find this XY DNA in Karate.

View attachment 31549

Yes there are definitely differences in mind/body arrangements and applications.

And there should be if the original root art been evolving in different locations far from eachother during long timespan.

 

[Same Trick]

So since the normal Inspiratory:expiratory ratio is 1:3-1:5, you just breathe normally.

What does this even mean?

Breath through skin” -

That’s not easy to understandably explain, it’s best to be experienced to be understood

Closest may be as - to be able of keeping breath low/resting in whatever situation.

An aim of “internal” martial arts methods is to refine this, refined it’s as if almost there’s no out and in breath, this is not same as holding one’s breath, it as if the two has merged and are at work at same time, and so a sense of breath through the skin, at that stage ones senses are sharp and enhanced as if one from distance can feel as if actually touching



A note - humans actually breathe through the skin, but this is not in the sense internal martial arts training mean

 

[Dirty Dog]

Breath through skin” -

That’s not easy to understandably explain, it’s best to be experienced to be understood

Closest may be as - to be able of keeping breath low/resting in whatever situation.

An aim of “internal” martial arts methods is to refine this, refined it’s as if almost there’s no out and in breath, this is not same as holding one’s breath, it as if the two has merged and are at work at same time, and so a sense of breath through the skin, at that stage ones senses are sharp and enhanced as if one from distance can feel as if actually touching



A note - humans actually breathe through the skin, but this is not in the sense internal martial arts training mean

Bollocks.

 

[Same Trick]

Bollocks.

Oh, those!
There are some Chinese gongfu for those too but not within the XYQ curriculum or even Karate, see there’s another common thing between those two

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes I understood you playing detective, but your doing in vain, I live in Huainan/Anhui province, done so for about 8 years by now, nothing to hide here

You are a condescending fellow aren't you....

祝你今天过得愉快

 

[Same Trick]

You are a condescending fellow aren't you....

祝你今天过得愉快

Hmm, that’s on you, reading such into my answer to your way of request of an answer from me, and this has nothing to do with the topic, so why insist with these questions? If you want to continue asking personal questions we can take it by PM…(is there is such a function on this forum?)

Look, you’re a XYQ guy, so it would be fun an interesting and possible even educating if you participated on the topic of XYQ in a more elaborate way than just sayin - yes it is/ no it isn’t .

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Look, you’re a XYQ guy, so it would be fun an interesting and possible even educating if you participated on the topic of XYQ in a more elaborate way than just sayin - yes it is/ no it isn’t .

The original discussion can be difficult. I have argued with people about:

- Judo came from Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling).
- Taiji came from long fist.

In those discussion, the best that you can do is just you say what you believe, and others say what they believe.

 

[Same Trick]

The original discussion can be difficult. I have argued with people about:

- Judo came from Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling).
- Taiji came from long fist.

In those discussion, the best that you can do is just you say what you believe, and others say what they believe.

Yes of course, you’re right, one answer and comment as one knows and wish to.

And you’re probably very right about the long fist/taiji connection, and Judo yeah sure perhaps from shuaijiao but through sumo ? All ancient cultures had their wrestling some still in practice. I as a Scandinavian have looked into the native Glima, not very throughout but find it interesting.

here’s a website on that that might be of interest it elaborate very briefly on other ancient wrestling arts too.

GLIMA - A BRIEF HISTORY by Þorsteinn Einarsson — ACADEMY of VIKING MARTIAL ARTS



I know you view Taiji applications quite from your wrestling(shuaijiao) background. But how would you think about XYQ to fit in with that ? Is it mere a striking method or do you see “wrestling” potential in it too? Your previous Hengquan vid suggest so.?

To tie it to eventual likeness with karate, there’s quite many throws and chin-na to be found in that too.

Some historians and records make karate to tie with ancient Okinawan wrestling.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Most Chinese martial arts are made up of Kicking & Striking, Qinna and Shuaijiao to varying degrees. And if one actually knows Xingyiquan it too has Shuaijiao, Qinna and kicking and striking. Although it is primarily striking, it is not "just" a simple striking art.

As for links between Karate and XIngyiquan, there are none beyond theory, and speculation, and some of that theory and speculation is just plan bad and not worth discussing. It accomplished nothing other than giving some folks a false view of how things evolved.

Long Fist to Taijiquan links have long been discussed by historians in China, and they do actually make since, but as of yet there are no verifiable historic references to such. And Taijiquan also has Shuaijiao in it, more than Xingyiquan actually. It also has striking, kicking and qinna. And my Yang lineage is from Tung Ying Chieh, to my teacher, who only train Yang Taijiquan, from Tung Ying Chieh. You can also very easily prove a link between Xinyiquan, Xingyiquan, Yiquan (Dachengquan) and Taikiken. But they are not the same, nor are the names interchangeable in a discussion, unless you goal is to confuse.

But there are no Xingyiquan link to Karate, no proof, only speculation and not much more to say there.

These types of discussions about links from one style to a completely different unrelated style never cease to amaze me, and there have been many of these over the years on MT, and I always end up saying almost the same thing every time..

If Sir Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz can come up with Calculus, independently of one another, and at the same time. Then two unrelated guys in different countries can come up with a Horse stance, or a specific punch, or a special takedown, independently from one another too..... martial arts and fighting is a lot less complicated than Calculus

 

[windwalker099]

Breath through skin” -

That’s not easy to understandably explain, it’s best to be experienced to be understood

Interesting

Possible topic for another thread

Don't feel an explanation is necessary;
maybe share your experiences or what it felt like when someone used it on you."

Have heard and used this in explaining different aspects of practice,
Chinese use word "air" at times interchangeably with "Qi"