Wong Jack Man and Bruce Lee’s Private Match

[Napitenkah]

Not the way I see it, but then you are entitled to your opinion.

Actually I think you are right there. There is always a reason.
Kids; when someone new comes in and doesn't socialize the way they feel he/she should, the kids often don't know how to handle it, but to be petulant toward the new kid.
But we are adults, we can come up with better ways.

Out of curiosity, what culture might that be? I have delt with multiple cultures and so far all of them introduce themselves. Heck we even have multipel cultures represented here on MT and one way or another they seem to always introduce themselves.
Look here
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/115-Meet-amp-Greet
That is where a lot of people introduce themselves and give some background as to what they have done and so on.

Would you like me to introduce myself, because I will for you, you seem nice and are not being petulant.
Napitenkah means fight in shoshoni. I am Newe sosohni.
Western shoshoni. Which means each shoshoni is an individual, and although many sosohni are not on the social ritual of introducing themselves, some will do it.
When I say MY culture, I mean me as an individual sosohni.
I have been doing martial arts, off and on, depending on finance and availibility since I was 17.
I am 46.
I am a Black Belt in taekwondo,
I know the 3 short forms of the tiger from Pai Lum Kung Fu, and am currently going to the Soards Shaolin, and am a yellow belt.
And yes, I like getting belts, or sashes, certificates, I like that. But, of course I do like actually knowing what the belt represents knowing, and I practice by myself on it as well.
I write, compose and record music, I do art of varying sorts, with my wife, we sell some of it online.
I like when people use chinese names, they are cool, and can tell the difference between a chinese name and a japanese name. And to some extent a vietnamese name.
I do maintenance of all sorts, I have a degree in HVAC, and am curently learning and putting together materials to build a solar panel.
I don't like fine dining and have never been to a fine restaurant in my life.
Well maybe, but I don't recall. I know one place served haagen daaz for dessert ice cream, so that might have been.
Another thing about me is I don't understand the importance of introducing oneself as a means of a group being friendly, but that is because it doesn't happen with adults in person most times.
In the kwoon, we introduce each other by name before we spar, or if a black belt is showing me something. Most people have a hard time pronouncing my name. Which isn't Napintenkah, but another shoshoni set of words.
But otherwise I don't, I will just go up and talk to someone, and they can with me.
In a group, I prefer natural interaction. Not a custom.
I don't know everything about you guys, and I could scour the 50 or more pages of the meet and greet, but I will probably find out eventually anyway.

 

[Tames D]

No... there's on a gap on how you are writing & therefore there's a gap in how I am responding to your post. That would be the problem. However, you could've perceived my responses as differently than intended given your
newbness here. Read on...



It is quite friendly. We are a great bunch. But like any established community, you need to introduce yourself. Maybe browse around a bit, see how things are done, see how the personalities are, how interaction between
established members are, etc... before deciding to join & post away with little regard for giving anybody a clue about who you are, your experience, your likes/dislikes, etc...
Now unlike KFO & your short time there (yes, I've been there for way before Kung Fu Magazine bought the board), the mod staff here is different. If you feel you've been abused or treated unfiarly. Review the TOS you should've read already & report the post. If it's actionable, it will be addressed accordingly. But don't expect big warm hugs & kisses without establishing yourself first.



That's always advisable.

Or... what's better is why not dust off your Dungarees from the dirt of the playground & rather than taking your toys & go home... why not introduce yourself to the kids here on the playground
that've been around longer & didn't trip you quite the way you think you were tripped.

Or not... it's up to you. But you'll find a serious amount of knowledge & first hand experiences here. However... it comes with a price. That price is interaction & experience.

Thank God we're driving this newbie out of here. Good job!

 

[seasoned]

Ladies and gentlemen, if you find during your discourses here that there is a point of view that you simply cannot reconcile yourselves to, then the simplest of approaches is not to take part in threads that contain that view.

Likewise, if there is a particular poster that you cannot respond to civilly or that you feel has breached the regulations of the forum in some fashion, then there are two tools available to you to cope with this:

If you cannot get along with someone else, then place them on your Ignore List.

If a breach of the regulations has occurred then use the RTM function so that the Staff can deal with the problem.

The temptation to "have it out" in a public forum should be resisted at all costs."

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually I think you are right there. There is always a reason.
Kids; when someone new comes in and doesn't socialize the way they feel he/she should, the kids often don't know how to handle it, but to be petulant toward the new kid.
But we are adults, we can come up with better ways.

Would you like me to introduce myself, because I will for you, you seem nice and are not being petulant.
Napitenkah means fight in shoshoni. I am Newe sosohni.
Western shoshoni. Which means each shoshoni is an individual, and although many sosohni are not on the social ritual of introducing themselves, some will do it.
When I say MY culture, I mean me as an individual sosohni.
I have been doing martial arts, off and on, depending on finance and availibility since I was 17.
I am 46.
I am a Black Belt in taekwondo,
I know the 3 short forms of the tiger from Pai Lum Kung Fu, and am currently going to the Soards Shaolin, and am a yellow belt.
And yes, I like getting belts, or sashes, certificates, I like that. But, of course I do like actually knowing what the belt represents knowing, and I practice by myself on it as well.
I write, compose and record music, I do art of varying sorts, with my wife, we sell some of it online.
I like when people use chinese names, they are cool, and can tell the difference between a chinese name and a japanese name. And to some extent a vietnamese name.
I do maintenance of all sorts, I have a degree in HVAC, and am curently learning and putting together materials to build a solar panel.
I don't like fine dining and have never been to a fine restaurant in my life.
Well maybe, but I don't recall. I know one place served haagen daaz for dessert ice cream, so that might have been.
Another thing about me is I don't understand the importance of introducing oneself as a means of a group being friendly, but that is because it doesn't happen with adults in person most times.
In the kwoon, we introduce each other by name before we spar, or if a black belt is showing me something. Most people have a hard time pronouncing my name. Which isn't Napintenkah, but another shoshoni set of words.
But otherwise I don't, I will just go up and talk to someone, and they can with me.
In a group, I prefer natural interaction. Not a custom.
I don't know everything about you guys, and I could scour the 50 or more pages of the meet and greet, but I will probably find out eventually anyway.

I know virtually little to nothing about Shoshoni culture and none of its language, thank you for telling me, so Napitenkah means fight, I shall be very careful about using the word, there are a lot of words in Beijing Mandarin that in english mean nothing but in Mandarin will get you into a fight if you put "nei" in front of it, never call a married man a turtle or tell a woman she is a chicken or tell someone they are crazy in Beijing

Xue Sheng (Mandarin for Student) I am I American of mostly western european heritage, not Chinese, but half of my family is from China (wife)

Trained in
Jujutsu, Teakwondo with a dash of Karate in my youth

These days and for the last 20 years, Chinese martial arts, started with Yang Taijiquan, also.

Chen Taijiquan, with a dash of Northern Wu Taijiquan
Shaolin Long Fist, Baguazhang, Sanda, and Wing Chun (not as long)
Also a very short time in JKD and JF
Xingyiquan is by far my favorite style but I can no longer train it due to knee injuries


These days I am strickly Yang Taijiquan, which I have been trainiing for a little over 20 years

I tend to beleive that once someone calls themselves, or thinks of themselves as a master all learning stops, which is why I always try to think of myself as a student (xue sheng)

 

[colemcm]

He also described him as someone who perhaps didn't have a lot of patience in teaching. He would show you something a couple times and if you still don't get it, then he wouldn't often have patience to show it again. My sifu speaks Cantonese and felt that gave him a real advantage in this regard, being able to communicate with Sifu Wong better. He has a tremendous amount of respect for Sifu Wong.

This seems to be a pretty common Chinese way of teaching. My Sifu taught the same way. Confucius said, "But if I hold up one corner and he cannot respond with the other three I will not repeat myself."

Of course, that could just be his personality.

 

[geezer]

It's okay, but I don't unless they gave me some kind of instruction.
After that I will always refer to them as Sifu, even if I leave the school.
I left a pai Lum Kung Fu school, but the sifu, if I saw him anywhere, I would still bow and say sir, as it was.

Napitenkah: Just a note of clarification on the term sifu. According to my old Cantonese speaking Chinese instructor, there are two separate terms pronounced as "sifu", represented by different characters and with differing meanings. The first version is "sifu" meaning teacher-father and that term is reserved just for your personal teacher with whom you have an established sifu-todai (teacher- student) relationship. The second term "sifu" is simply used as an honorific or term of respect for any highly skilled practitioner or instructor. In Chinese culture it is common and good manners to use the word "sifu" in this sense to refer to any respectable master other than your own sifu.

When my sifu (that is "teacher-father) took us to have dinner, etc. with other well known Chinese martial arts instructors, we (his to-dai) would always keep the guest instructor's teacup filled and refer to the guest using the term "sifu" in the second sense meaning "respected master".

Interestingly, my first brush with formal martial arts training way back in the mid '70's was also with the Pai Lum system as taught by David L. Smith in New London, Ct. He claimed that the Pai Lum family system had Northern Chinese roots and he used the Mandarin pronunciation Shifu. Later, after studying with actual Chinese instructors, I have come to understand that the Pai Lum system of Daniel K. Pai is unknown in China and is actually more akin to Chinese Kenpo --being an Americanized blend of Japanese and Chinese techniques. This may also affect the understanding and use of Chinese terms. Regardless, good luck and best wishes as you progress in the martial arts.

 

[Napitenkah]

The thing is, we could go on and on through out history, and find that no martial art or MA history is not without some kind of credibility issue, controversy, deception, misinformation.

Like a common acceptance is that Bodhidharma brought martial arts to the Shaolin temple. But apparently there is historians that have discounted that on the premise that the Yi Jin Jing is a forgery, and that some of the monks were already involved with MA before becoming the first Monks of Shaolin. They apparently knew staff and empty hand techniques before Bodhidharma.

So if that is how it is, and we cannot for sure know, it is a solid feature of martial arts history that what we have been told of how things were created, done and achieved may not be. So it inadvertently may be a tradition in MA history.

I know one thing, all martial arts had to be made up, at some point. People watched animals and ripped off their movements to make a MA form.

So I feel, as long as the sifu can teach well, whether they made up the forms themselves or someone did 2 thousand years ago, it will probably help achieve fitness, self defense and health.

I know it has with me.

 

[Flying Crane]

The thing is, we could go on and on through out history, and find that no martial art or MA history is not without some kind of credibility issue, controversy, deception, misinformation.

Like a common acceptance is that Bodhidharma brought martial arts to the Shaolin temple. But apparently there is historians that have discounted that on the premise that the Yi Jin Jing is a forgery, and that some of the monks were already involved with MA before becoming the first Monks of Shaolin. They apparently knew staff and empty hand techniques before Bodhidharma.

So if that is how it is, and we cannot for sure know, it is a solid feature of martial arts history that what we have been told of how things were created, done and achieved may not be. So it inadvertently may be a tradition in MA history.

I know one thing, all martial arts had to be made up, at some point. People watched animals and ripped off their movements to make a MA form.

So I feel, as long as the sifu can teach well, whether they made up the forms themselves or someone did 2 thousand years ago, it will probably help achieve fitness, self defense and health.

I know it has with me.

Well there's truth to that, but personally I don't like to find out that someone was deliberately deceiving me. It makes me wonder, why? What else are they hiding? And once we've gone down that path I begin to question the very material that I've been taught. The "history" that I've been told doesn't actually exist, there is no history of this material being effective, etc. Maybe the material was built on top of this guy's fantasy? Things that make ya go "hmmm..."

With the Shaolin history, it's true that the Damo story may not be true, but there are centuries of history with the material being effective. So even if that story isn't true, the material has still been shown to be good stuff.

But when it's just one generation out, like with the Pai Lum stuff, well that's not much foundation to go on. Hybridized systems sometimes work well, sometimes they don't. It really depends a lot on what material was mixed together, and HOW it was mixed. So I don't know anything about Pai Lum, but those are the concerns that I would have.

 

[Napitenkah]

What I feel, is there are no bad martial arts, it is all up to the aspiring martial artist.
Pai lum came about When Daniel pai, learned various martial arts from his family, and from that formulated Pai Lum Kung Fu.
Let's say I learn wushu, and Taekwondo, and jiujitsu, and then make my own martial art on it.
And from there, I come up with some of my own forms which have strikes, blocks, kicks of various types, but can only be ones that relate to a style, like Se meng t'ao lian, if sin-the made that one up, it still incorporates strikes, blocks and movements found in Taichi and Kung fu.
Where does the part of it not being established as useful come in?
I have the sense to see that for some of the strikes of Se meng t'ao lian to work, I have to practice. Just like I would for a form that is known to be a genuine shaolin form.
A knife hand is useless unless you condition your fingers and hand to make it a weapon.
People will say they don' teach forms because they say they don't work in a real fight.
Because, if they did ever learn them, they didn't take the real energetic time and imagination to go over what they were doing. They didn't condition their body to where it moves with the chi power, let alone just condition their body in a purely physical manner to make their martial art work.
There are only so many strikes, blocks, and movements and they all have been done before, and it is all up to the student to make them effective. Pai lum and the chinese shaolin center isn't teaching some totally knew kind of martial art curriculum that has never been seen before.
They teach a curriculum, some of which is from older martial arts and some stuff they came up with, but is still based in the tools of the older martial art.
They put something together that incorporates all the things they would like to see in one martial art. Then they call it one martial art. Which is the deception, but it is not a malicious deception that requires a strong stand. It isn't like someone that takes your money and leaves you with nothing. People from other schools will say that, because they want you to go to their school instead. You got to know the sharks from the guppies, and the only way that can really be done is to feel people energetically.
if someone overlooks the Boddhidarma story possibly being false, and yet is really hardcore on people today that are perceived to be frauds, then you are probably in line with the tradition.
Because back then, likely the same kinds of conversations were going on.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm not passing judgement on Pai Lum because I have no experience with it. I'm only commenting on some things that I consider with regard to "new" systems or hybrid systems.

Not every form is equal. Some were well designed and well constructed, and, when properly understood and properly taught and properly trained, they are very valuable training tools. Those same forms have little or no value if NOT properly understood, properly taught, and properly trained.

Other forms were no so well designed and are just superficial exercise with little value in martial training.

So when it comes to passing along forms and other martial material, it really does depend on a number of issues as to how much value those forms will have for you.

 

[Tai Mantis Warrior]

Came across this interesting thread and thought I'd throw in my thoughts on this.

I practise a set of martial arts (Tai Chi Praying Mantis, Bagua, Xing-Yi, Northern Shaolin etc) that are closely connected to the teachings of Wong Jack Man. Some of my master's teachers were taught by him. I never met Sigung Wong but from what my teachers have told me about him, he was enormously well respected in the Chinese martial arts community. He was also a highly skilled fighter, which is why he was chosen to fight Bruce Lee. It was supposed to be a message issued by the older more experienced martial arts teachers. From the stories I heard, it resembled a kind of classic mafia battle where the older mustache petes wanted to take out a younger, brasher upstart. By all acounts, Sifu Wong was an old school-style teacher whose doors were open to all who sought his instruction. As a man, he was described as extremely soft-spoken, kind, modest, fair, and very private - which helps explain why he remained rather quiet about this incident for so many years. He is has lived now for over 70 years, and still taught up until a few years ago after decades of practice and trying to spread the fitness and self defense teachings of his art to everyone he possibly could, so that everyone could benefit both morally and athletically from training in the martial arts.

Apparently, he felt some regret for having participated in the fight with Lee, because it made both him and Lee look like bickering hotheads. He blamed the fight on arrogance on the part of both fighters (Lee and Wong were both about 23 when they fought). However, according to my teachers the fight was not about Lee teaching Chinese martial arts to foreigners - indeed Sifu Wong himself had several non-Chinese students and probably taught many more non-Chinese students throughout his 45 years of teaching than Lee did. Rather, it was more about Lee having a big mouth and putting down the teachings of other martial arts teachers in the area. Sifu Wong requested a public fight with Lee after Lee had issued an open challenge during a demonstration at a Chinatown theater in which he claimed to be able to defeat any martial artist in San Francisco. A mutual acquaintance delivered a note from Lee inviting him to fight so he showed up at Lee's school to challenge him.

According to Wong and another man who was there - a Tai Chi instructor named William Chen - the fight was a draw and lasted about 20 or 25 minutes. But of course, Bruce became the more famous of the two and so his version stuck. Wong was obviously unhappy about Lee's version and in a local Chinese newspaper once again challenged Lee to another fight - this time in public so there could be no confusion as to the winner.

Lee never responded.

But whatever the case, what we do know for sure is that it was Lee who eventually had to leave San Francisco due to the pressure from other martial artists right before, during, and after this fight. Also, let's not forget that it was Lee who eventually abandoned his art as being ineffective after this fight.

I'm not sure about Lee, but I know Sifu Wong would rather be remembered for his excellence as both an instructor and a practitioner of Chinese Martial Arts than this fight, which only gives the martial arts a bad name by showing that people settle their problems through violence.