Hsing i/Zing yi - a Root of Karate

[Xue Sheng]

In the city I now have lived for the past 7 years Xinyi-Liuhequan hold a strong position in its wushu community and I have some regular connection with the group and have included some of its exercises in my own Xingyi practice. Take the horse shape(one version of it) of XYLHQ, it’s directly related to Xingyiquan’s splitting fist/ Dragon shape/ Bear-Eagle shape.

But not only similarities in shape/forms but also in spirit, quick spirited footwork

Originally, that will say original origin it’s said that there was only the “three old fists”, they are still there, but expanded into five elements and/or into 10/12 animals depending on witch Xinyi or Xingyi method one look at, but the core specific is same through them all.

The elements changed over the years to

And i am very aware of all you have posted, but this is getting off the rails from my original point….. xinyiquan and Xingyiquan are not the sams, even with the similarities. If that were the case Yiquan could also be Xinyiquan and every style that uses the horse stance would be the same.

And thank you, but i do not need the history lesson… i am aware of much of it. My point is, and all it ever was, is that Xinyi and Xingyi are not the same nor are the interchangeable in a conversation. And yes you did use Xinyi multiple times. Just wanted to clear things up for other users

And to get back on point of the OP. I have serious doubts that karate roots are in xingyiquan. And since you brought it in, i have serious doubts it has any relation ti xinyiquan as well

 

[Same Trick]

The elements changed over the years to

And i am very aware of all you have posted, but this is getting off the rails from my original point….. xinyiquan and Xingyiquan are not the sams, even with the similarities. If that were the case Yiquan could also be Xinyiquan and every style that uses the horse stance would be the same.

And thank you, but i do not need the history lesson… i am aware of much of it. My point is, and all it ever was, is that Xinyi and Xingyi are not the same nor are the interchangeable in a conversation. And yes you did use Xinyi multiple times. Just wanted to clear things up for other users

And to get back on point of the OP. I have serious doubts that karate roots are in xingyiquan. And since you brought it in, i have serious doubts it has any relation ti xinyiquan as well

That you don’t want to look at the history of Xin/xingyiquan of course becomes an obstacle in the frame of this thread topic.
As for Yiquan so was it during wang xiangzhai’s time considered a branch of XYQ,
Early on they did keep practicing some of XYQ shapes, Yiquan punching is from horse shape of xyq .
As for any relation of xyq with karate I do think there is, but it far back in history.
But it kind of went full circle with yiquan through taikiken inspired Oyama’s kyukushinkai development

 

[Xue Sheng]

That you don’t want to look at the history of Xin/xingyiquan of course becomes an obstacle in the frame of this thread topic.
As for Yiquan so was it during wang xiangzhai’s time considered a branch of XYQ,
Early on they did keep practicing some of XYQ shapes, Yiquan punching is from horse shape of xyq .
As for any relation of xyq with karate I do think there is, but it far back in history.
But it kind of went full circle with yiquan through taikiken inspired Oyama’s kyukushinkai development

Huh!? I know the history, when did i ever say I didn’t?

This is pointless, you want to right…. I think your wrong….. and running with pure speculation…. You an i will not agree.

I’m not wasting any more time here on this,

 

[Same Trick]

Huh!? I know the history, when did i ever say I didn’t?

This is pointless, you want to right…. I think your wrong….. and running with pure speculation…. You an i will not agree.

I’m not wasting any more time here on this,

“But Hebei is not the origin. Xingyiquan comes from Dai family Xinyiquan.“



It’s ok if you don’t want to dwell deeper into the shared history of xin/xingyiquan, but you can not say that your opinion is period for this thread topic and no need to further talk

The above bolded quote is what you wrote early in the thread, but now you say they have nothing in common and share nothing??

But yes Hebei Xingyiquan is not the origin of XYQ, Li Luoneng the originator of that branch came from Shanxi province same as Dai family and thus do Shanxi Xingyiquan have closer relation to Xinyiquan. In Hebei Li Lounengs Xingyiquan evolved further, that’s where Li Lounengs student Gou Yunshen brought the art, he knew other martial arts before becoming a student of Li Luoneng and by so put his mark on (Xin)/Xingyiquan, banbu/the half step footwork as example is said to be of GYS origin, also some credit the Santi stance as pile standing as his development.

Santi can be seen in some animal shapes/forms of some branches of XYLH but only as a transitional posture.

You say you practice Wudang Xingyiquan, now that’s a quite modern phenomenon and it looks straight from Hebei XYQ, there’s a guy in my former Chinese hometown that’s into that with full ancient wudang robes and hairstyle

Anyway as for the thread topic, I’ve a hunch of a Karate with a somehow Dai shi XYQ relation.

I know very well that lots of ppl involved in CMA don’t want to talk any relation to Japanese/(okinawan) martial arts, almost as if they feel getting tainted when the subject is brought forth.
However I see you display a text in your avatar that’s related to Aikido, so I’m not meaning you as one of those ppl

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Since we are discussing the XY system, do you guys agree that XY Heng Quan is not a punch but a "body squeeze" throw?

When doing Heng Quan, most of the XY guy will twist the fist and make the big fist eye to face horizontal. In my XY system, we do it as a vertical fist side way punch.

 

[Same Trick]

Since we are discussing the XY system, do you guys agree that XY Heng Quan is not a punch but a "body squeeze" throw?

When doing Heng Quan, most of the XY guy will twist the fist and make the big fist eye to face horizontal. In my XY system, we do it as a vertical fist side way punch.

As in Xingyiquan the animal forms (can be)/are variations of the 5 elements fists, then snake form may be variation of heng-quan/crossing fist, which your gif actually may showcase. Heng can also be a switch hand from a parry hand to a press hand/arm, one arm parries the other switch in to press.

And to take this into the realm of Karate the Uchi-uke(a mid level “block”) can be applied exactly like that of XYQ heng

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As in Xingyiquan the animal forms (can be)/are variations of the 5 elements fists, then snake form may be variation of heng-quan/crossing fist, which your gif actually may showcase. Heng can also be a switch hand from a parry hand to a press hand/arm, one arm parries the other switch in to press.

And to take this into the realm of Karate the Uchi-uke(a mid level “block”) can be applied exactly like that of XYQ heng

Agree that Heng Quan can be a block. But is it strange that all other XY punches are offense moves and this is the only defense move?

 

[Xue Sheng]

“But Hebei is not the origin. Xingyiquan comes from Dai family Xinyiquan.“



It’s ok if you don’t want to dwell deeper into the shared history of xin/xingyiquan, but you can not say that your opinion is period for this thread topic and no need to further talk

The above bolded quote is what you wrote early in the thread, but now you say they have nothing in common and share nothing??

But yes Hebei Xingyiquan is not the origin of XYQ, Li Luoneng the originator of that branch came from Shanxi province same as Dai family and thus do Shanxi Xingyiquan have closer relation to Xinyiquan. In Hebei Li Lounengs Xingyiquan evolved further, that’s where Li Lounengs student Gou Yunshen brought the art, he knew other martial arts before becoming a student of Li Luoneng and by so put his mark on (Xin)/Xingyiquan, banbu/the half step footwork as example is said to be of GYS origin, also some credit the Santi stance as pile standing as his development.

Santi can be seen in some animal shapes/forms of some branches of XYLH but only as a transitional posture.

You say you practice Wudang Xingyiquan, now that’s a quite modern phenomenon and it looks straight from Hebei XYQ, there’s a guy in my former Chinese hometown that’s into that with full ancient wudang robes and hairstyle

Anyway as for the thread topic, I’ve a hunch of a Karate with a somehow Dai shi XYQ relation.

I know very well that lots of ppl involved in CMA don’t want to talk any relation to Japanese/(okinawan) martial arts, almost as if they feel getting tainted when the subject is brought forth.
However I see you display a text in your avatar that’s related to Aikido, so I’m not meaning you as one of those ppl

Stop putting words in my mouth, and stop making accusations that are not factual

I never said they had nothing i common, I said “they are not the same” you were using xinyi and xingyi interchangeably. I wanted to clarify and you went off on an ego driven tirade that is still going on. You like many newbs on web forums seem to have the need to not only be right, but have the need for others to say you are right. You can post on this topic as much as you want but I will never agree with you that xinyi and xingyi are the interchangeable

And please stop with history lesson, I told you before I know this already.

So check the ego, accept the fact that I do not agree with you that xinyi and xingyi are the same, and move on

My avatar is aikido related!? Well you are wrong on that to. It’s a taiji with eyes over that how it that related to aikido

Also to correct your incorrect accusation. I trained mostly hebei style, I did a bit of Shang and dabbled in Wudang. Did a bit of shanxxi.as well, but only a little bit. So you might want to get your facts straight before you post things that are not exactly correct about others

And what is your former Chinese home town? Didn’t you say you were there now? What web browser are you using?

This entire thing is sounding suspiciously familiar to a previous poster who was posting a lot of questionable stuff… not that you are that person, just stating to sound familiar

Now would you please check your ego and let the post get back on topic. Like I have tried to do in 3 posts now

I do not believe there is any xingyiquan link to karate

 

[Same Trick]

Agree that Heng Quan can be a block. But is it strange that all other XY punches are offense moves and this is the only defense move?

Sure a block it can be, as same as the most common application in Karate.

However XYQ footwork suggest stepping in taking opponent’s space as kind of shown in you gif.

So what I mean, in completion of Heng the Heng arm is pressing on opponents upper attacking arm preferably locking it close to his body and also have him somewhat unbalanced and under temporary control from where one can go on with other technique that feel suited to the situation .

(What precede the completion of the Heng is a slight parry/deflect with one’s other arm/hand..) In this sense Heng is more a technique of control/setting up the opponent .



Damn difficult to explain such a simple thing, I blame that English is not my native language



But to keep to the topic of thread I say the Karate “block” Uchi- uke hold the potential to be a XYQ Heng-quan

 

[Same Trick]

Stop putting words in my mouth, and stop making accusations that are not factual

I never said they had nothing i common, I said “they are not the same” you were using xinyi and xingyi interchangeably. I wanted to clarify and you went off on an ego driven tirade that is still going on. You like many newbs on web forums seem to have the need to not only be right, but have the need for others to say you are right. You can post on this topic as much as you want but I will never agree with you that xinyi and xingyi are the interchangeable

And please stop with history lesson, I told you before I know this already.

So check the ego, accept the fact that I do not agree with you that xinyi and xingyi are the same, and move on

My avatar is aikido related!? Well you are wrong on that to. It’s a taiji with eyes over that how it that related to aikido

Also to correct your incorrect accusation. I trained mostly hebei style, I did a bit of Shang and dabbled in Wudang. Did a bit of shanxxi.as well, but only a little bit. So you might want to get your facts straight before you post things that are not exactly correct about others

And what is your former Chinese home town? Didn’t you say you were there now? What web browser are you using?

This entire thing is sounding suspiciously familiar to a previous poster who was posting a lot of questionable stuff… not that you are that person, just stating to sound familiar

Now would you please check your ego and let the post get back on topic. Like I have tried to do in 3 posts now

I do not believe there is any xingyiquan link to karate

Don’t see it as you are being lectured, the historical stuff I know is quite limited and you as most that are long timers into CMA most probably have read up about most on history, but as I said, the history of these stuff are not set in stone, new findings comes around and revisions are made.

However as the thread topic is about history, then at least as good as we can we got to try to dwell into it, you bluntly say no there’s no connection to be found karate/XYQ wise , and almost as bluntly say no similarities between Xinyi and Xingyi exist despite the fact that of their historical connection, and that’s OK, I’m not here to try change your opinion, my main intent on the topic is for general reading, absolutely not exclusively just for you even if I happen to use “you” in the writing.

Now let’s look at these xin/xingyi branches , Xinyi that you say is its own separate system, however Xinyi Liuhequan and Dai-shi Xinyiquan, surface wise look quite different from each other and could by your otherwise measurements be two completely different gong fu systems, but they’re not, they are as close to each other as Xingyiquan is to Dai-shi Xinyiquan, they’re all of the same branch….



Again it’s not a lecture, and dont feel you’re under attack or something, it’s just an opinion of mine on the topic



Next, no I’m not a former member of this forum, I’m completely fresh here.

As for China, I’ve lived in Beijing then Dalian and nowin Huainan, altogether 20+ years, I’m not the whoever you suspect me to be

 

[Xue Sheng]

Don’t see it as you are being lectured, the historical stuff I know is quite limited and you as most that are long timers into CMA most probably have read up about most on history, but as I said, the history of these stuff are not set in stone, new findings comes around and revisions are made.

However as the thread topic is about history, then at least as good as we can we got to try to dwell into it, you bluntly say no there’s no connection to be found karate/XYQ wise , and almost as bluntly say no similarities between Xinyi and Xingyi exist despite the fact that of their historical connection, and that’s OK, I’m not here to try change your opinion, my main intent on the topic is for general reading, absolutely not exclusively just for you even if I happen to use “you” in the writing.

Now let’s look at these xin/xingyi branches , Xinyi that you say is its own separate system, however Xinyi Liuhequan and Dai-shi Xinyiquan, surface wise look quite different from each other and could by your otherwise measurements be two completely different gong fu systems, but they’re not, they are as close to each other as Xingyiquan is to Dai-shi Xinyiquan, they’re all of the same branch….



Again it’s not a lecture, and dont feel you’re under attack or something, it’s just an opinion of mine on the topic



Next, no I’m not a former member of this forum, I’m completely fresh here.

As for China, I’ve lived in Beijing then Dalian and nowin Huainan, altogether 20+ years, I’m not the whoever you suspect me to be

Wow, you are using all the web tactics to sound right aren’t you

I don’t feel I am under attack, I am rather confused by your persistent and your need for me to think you’re right though, and you are not nor are your accusation.

“Almost as bluntly” really. You felt the need to repost what I said as to xingyi coming from xinyi… I posted it, you reposted what I said… how is that even remotely saying there is no connection between xinyi and xingyi

You were the one saying they were the same, all I said was they were not…. And how many posts is this now you have been changing my words, making false accusations and trying to get me to agree….

You really need to move on, give it up, you are not right.

So where in China are you and what browser/search engine are you using?

 

[Same Trick]

Wow, you are using all the web tactics to sound right aren’t you

I don’t feel I am under attack.

So where in China are you and what browser/search engine are you using?

Relax, sink you weight to underside.
Now we should actually talk Karate/Xyq topic, your questions are not related to that.
Anyway, I did write where in China I now live, I have no clue why you want to know about that, do you live here too and want to meet ?
About “web tactics”? Look, I’m a caveman, computer stuff are still much alien to me.
So that’s about that, now I will continue focus on the topic of this thread.

Xinyi/Xingyi-

Feng Zhiqiang the famed Chen style master also learned Xinyiquan from famed Xinyiquan master Hu Yaozhen, now the interesting thing here is that their Xinyiquan is Santishi based just as regular Xingyiquan.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Relax, sink you weight to underside.
Now we should actually talk Karate/Xyq topic, your questions are not related to that.
Anyway, I did write where in China I now live, I have no clue why you want to know about that, do you live here too and want to meet ?
About “web tactics”? Look, I’m a caveman, computer stuff are still much alien to me.
So that’s about that, now I will continue focus on the topic of this thread.

You come to a lot of unfounded conclusions don't you.... so what browser/search engine are you using..in China....its the thing you see when you boot your computer.... you know, like google, yahoo

 

[Same Trick]

You come to a lot of unfounded conclusions don't you.... so what browser/search engine are you using..in China....its the thing you see when you boot your computer.... you know, like google, yahoo

Sorry I don’t know what this has to do with the topic, what difference does it make whatever google, yahoo, bing, baidu, yandex ?

 

[Same Trick]

The OP wonder about a possible relationship of karate and XYQ, basing this on two things - a research made I think back in the 80’s by an Englishman that claim the legendary Okinawan karate master Chatan Yara(1740–1812)studied XYQ during his time in China(Fujian) .The other source OP have for his question is a video of excellent Xingyiquan master Yang Hai.

So both a very historical source from when the art was named “Xinyi”, and a “modern” source thats named Xingyi.

The most verifiable origin source of XYQ creation is with Ji Longfeng(1588-1662) who converted his spear methods into boxing method, it’s said he did this during his stay at the Shaolin temple and the boxing method became known as ‘Xinyiba’.

When Ji Longfeng left the temple he continued teaching his boxing around in Henan province, it’s known some of his students came from or moved to neighboring provinces. Henan province with its Kaifeng was at time a major hub for trading and of course had relations with other trading hubs of China such as Fuzhou in Fujian province.

So it’s quite plausible Ji Longfeng’s XY boxing method by the trading rout could have made the journey and settled in Fuzhou/Fujian just in time to when Chatan Yara lived there.

Another plausible historical Henan/Fujian link can be the Shaolin temple link. As the legend tells, there was also a Shaolin temple in Fujian, if so, the Fujian temple might very well have had strong connection with the “original” Shaolin in Henan and so Ji Longfeng’s Xinyiba might have traveled to Fujian.

Li Luoneng learned Xinyiquan from the Dai family in the mid 1800’s, after many years of study he began teaching in his home province Shanxi, he called the method Xingyiquan.

Dai family was a wealthy family doing various businesses often traveling to other provinces, by this Li Luoneng worked for sometime in the Dai family’s bodyguarding business traveling with trade caravans, routs may have been to Fujian province but not likely.

However, Li Lounengs Xingyiquan is a branch of Xinyiquan , and that could be so too for Chatan Yara’s boxing method he brought to Okinawa much later to be named Karate. The Naihanchi kata is by some attributed to Chatan Yara thatcould be a long lost in China original Xinyiba exercise !

Later in life back in Okinawa Chatan Yara met a Chinese envoy to there whose name we only from Okinawan dialect as Kushanku. Kushanku knew boxing very well and Chatan Yara adopted those methods into his curriculum, if Yara just learned singled out boxing techniques, or boxing routines is not known, but later a longer Kata named after the Chinese envoy appears(today a fundamental pillar of the art of Karate)………

And with this we may step into the realm of a possible Karate/Taijiquan connection

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The OP wonder about a possible relationship of karate and XYQ,

We cannot just look at the similarity between XY Heng Quan and Karate block. We should look at whether XY principles are used in Karate or not.

1. XY use 3-7 stance that I have not seen Karate system uses it.
2. XY treats Pao Quan as lift up the curtain and walk underneath. When Karate guy makes an upward block, his body usually is not moving forward.
3. XY coordinates punch with either the front foot landing, or the back foot landing. This requirement is not emphasized in Karate.
4. The compress/release power generation method is also not emphasized in the Karate system.
5. Hand coordinates with foot, elbow coordinates with knee, shoulder coordinates with hip are not addressed in Karate...
6. XY dragon coordinates palm strike and kick at the same time (such as left Pi Quan and right kick at the same time). Also not addresses in Karate.
7. Karate has strong influence from the southern CMA system white crane. The XY system is the northern CMA system.
8. XY uses dynamic punches. Karate usually uses static punches.
9. ...

 

[isshinryuronin]

XY uses dynamic punches. Karate usually uses static punches.

Please explain "dynamic" and "static" and how the punches are different.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Please explain "dynamic" and "static" and how the punches are different.

Dynamic punch - coordinate punch with leading foot landing. When the punch makes contact, the back foot is still sliding along the ground. The body is still moving forward at that moment.

Static punch - coordinate punch with back foot landing. When the punch makes contact, the back foot is connected to the ground. The body is not moving forward at that moment.

 

[Same Trick]

We cannot just look at the similarity between XY Heng Quan and Karate block. We should look at whether XY principles are used in Karate or not.

1. XY use 3-7 stance that I have not seen Karate system uses it.
2. XY treats Pao Quan as lift up the curtain and walk underneath. When Karate guy makes an upward block, his body usually is not moving forward.
3. XY coordinates punch with either the front foot landing, or the back foot landing. This requirement is not emphasized in Karate.
4. The compress/release power generation method is also not emphasized in the Karate system.
5. Hand coordinates with foot, elbow coordinates with knee, shoulder coordinates with hip are not addressed in Karate...
6. XY dragon coordinates palm strike and kick at the same time (such as left Pi Quan and right kick at the same time). Also not addresses in Karate.
7. Karate has strong influence from the southern CMA system white crane. The XY system is the northern CMA system.
8. XY uses dynamic punches. Karate usually uses static punches.
9. ...

1. 
   The back stance/ kokutsu dachi is held weight distribution 30/70..if that what you men 3-7 ?, its a common stance.
2. Yes usually Karate use a 1-2/block then strike, however blocks usually in solo practice performed while moving forward so the upper block(age-uke) fits very well as lifting curtain, also Kata chinto in some Shorin-ryu schools do the block and strike in one move.
3. In karate there are not just one foot/hand coordination with striking, it comes clear when reaching more advanced training.
4. I mostly agree. As I wrote earlier in this thread some methods do seem to have been lost…But compress/release can be found, Naihanshi/Tekki kata comes to mind may hold this method.
5. Yes the 6 harmony method is not taught, but I can easily see it can be part of the Naihanchi katas if one would mind those harmonies, but the Kata design almost let the harmonies come by by themselves.
6. In Long-xing and Pi-quan the kick comes out in mid move when fist drill up and forward, at least that’s in the XYQ I practice. Block and kick simultaneously is found in many karate kata.
7. Yes the Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu styles are if not exactly then to a big part derived from Fujian crane style gongfu, and kata Seisan(meaning: 13) is one of the oldest kata on Okinawa(I guess that kata also in Fujian crane style ?), but the styles I’m referring to in comparison to XYQ are Okinawa Shorin-ryu group, Goju-ryu belong to Shorei-ryu group. Shorin-ryu is older than the Shorei-ryu group and hold a completely different set of Katas(except for Seisan)
8. I’ll guess when you say dynamic vs static punching it relates to Nr:3 the foot/hand coordination thing, so I refer to my explanation in Nr:3
9. …

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry I don’t know what this has to do with the topic, what difference does it make whatever google, yahoo, bing, baidu, yandex ?

Proof of your claim of location=, which I am doubting a little....

But whatever, you want to hide, so be it.

I will not waste anymore time on your unfounded claims, misrepresentation of styles, nor will I allow you to waste anymore of my time