Hsing i/Zing yi - a Root of Karate

[Same Trick]

what the heck did the Japanese sword guy and Yang Luchan have to do with it.. that you brought in...Why not tell Kung Fu Wang that Shuaijiao Sumo and Judo have nothing to do with it and get him back on track... and just so you know, bolding text can be takin as yelling at someone on a forum...so stop yelling at me... a discussion does on ocassoin drift, has for years on MT. Sorry I know more about it than you would like

additionally, the way you quoted that in your response made it look like I posted the above, and I most certainly did not post that, you did

Sorry for the boldness I was looking for a quote function but can’t find it there when writing a new message, I figured I bold your text I quote and do mine reply unbolded, but it just kept on with writing bold, anyway I could not think about anyone would get upset by that - that’s news for me, let’s put weight underside/sink the qi and we’ll be calm again (I did put your text within “ “)

Yes it’s understandable you don’t know, and I should have thought about explaining it, Sokon Matsumura was as Okinawan one can be, but apart being a Karate(tode) master he was also a Sword/fencing master of the Japanese Jigen-ryu sword school which was the sword school of the Satsuma clan in Satsuma/Kagoshima area in the most southern part of Kyushu, satsuma clan was in feud against the Tokugawa shogunate and was forced even more south ….to Okinawa and there the jigen-ryu sword school became a thing for the aristocracy and the royal house……Very simplified explained, but hope it clears up some

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry for the boldness I was looking for a quote function but can’t find it there when writing a new message, I figured I bold your text I quote and do mine reply unbolded, but it just kept on with writing bold, anyway I could not think about anyone would get upset by that - that’s news for me, let’s put weight underside/sink the qi and we’ll be calm again (I did put your text within “ “)

Yes it’s understandable you don’t know, and I should have thought about explaining it, Sokon Matsumura was as Okinawan one can be, but apart being a Karate(tode) master he was also a Sword/fencing master of the Japanese Jigen-ryu sword school which was the sword school of the Satsuma clan in Satsuma/Kagoshima area in the most southern part of Kyushu, satsuma clan was in feud against the Tokugawa shogunate and was forced even more south ….to Okinawa and there the jigen-ryu sword school became a thing for the aristocracy and the royal house……Very simplified explained, but hope it clears up some

Thank you, I did not know all that, but you missed my point.

My point being that you seem to have no problem with your own thread drift off topic or Kung Fu Wang's thread drift off topic, or anyone erlse for that matter, but if I go off, even slightly you like to remind me what the topic is about. That is the point.

Thread drift occurs on MT and many other forums as well, and if that drift is somehow related to a previous post, and anything I post was, I have no issue with that at all. However if the OP shows up and starts restricting the topic, that is different, and you are not the OP.

Some thread drift, with the occasional side story is, IMO, to be expected, that is how conversation works on and off the web, a classroom is very different, but then this is not a classroom. Now if one has a thread discussing a link between Xingyi and Karate and someone shows up and starts talking about Ice Cream, or just starts to flame for no reason, then they need to be reminded

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kung Fu Wang's thread drift off topic,

I already have a bad reputation trying to drift off abstract discussion into concrete discussion.

For example, when someone starts a thread "What skill are learned in Taiji?" I like to drift off that thread into "How do you develop/test your Taiji skill?" When there is a concrete discussion, I'll never try to drift it off.

Instead of talking about the history of XY and Karate, I prefer to talk about the DNA similarity/difference.

 

[Same Trick]

So i just came upon an article on the Fighting Arts website ,authored by Joe Swift, an American Budoka/karateka and longtime resident to Japan.

And, Ah ! I should have thought about this since I myself made a reference and wrote it recently in another thread.

In the article Joe Swift refers refers to Chinese martial arts Kata’s as Hsing(Xing), that do hold the meaning - shape/form.

And with that, I can see the that the previous theory that surfaced many years ago by a karate historian claiming the legendary Okinawan karate master Chatan Yara learned Hsing-I Chuan(Xinyiquan) in China might have been misinterpreted from just that Yara studied (boxing)-hsing - boxing forms - Kata
So original source on Chatan Yara might not mention an specific style of Quan-fa, but rather just say something as -“Boxing forms”

 

[Same Trick]

Expand on my previous post about Hsing/Xing. when mention in Chinese the different exercises in XYQ as for example each of the 10/12 animal exercises one refer them as Xing - shape.
Example - Dragon the first of the animal exercises is “Long-Xing - dragon shape/form.
So I can see how mistake can have been made when a westerner met writing the history of an Okinawan learning boxing in China .
But I not sure if Xing(form) is used outside of XYQ to refer as forms/(kata) in other Chinese MA’s(it’s not in TJQ I do, but the tongbei I do has its wuxing(refers to the elements) but that a fairly new creation).
Maybe still can be so that Karate may have its root in XYQ xing/forms ?
The article by Joe Swift I mention in previous post, talks about an original Chinese gongfu kata taught by a Chinese staying in Okinawa, that kata was eventually remodeled/reformed into five katas coming to be known as Pinan(ping-an in chinese). I’m not claiming the pinan katas are XYQ but the story show that Chinese gongfu master was in Okinawa also during a time when Xingyiquan had evolved somewhat to its present performance, story also show that Chinese gongfu not only from the characteristic Fujian gongfu style’s continued inspire Okinawan karate into the early 1900’s.

Happy speculations

 

[isshinryuronin]

Chinese gongfu kata taught by a Chinese staying in Okinawa, that kata was eventually remodeled/reformed into five katas coming to be known as Pinan

Itosu Anko devised the pinans based off of several other kata, some already practiced in Okinawa including Kusanku around 1900. Mr. Swift, a noted karate historian, mentioned the possibility of the source being a form called, or named after Channon. Whether this form was one influencer of the pinan or a major foundation which Itosu reworked is not known. There is even a chance it played no part.

The pinan forms are short and sweet, easy to perform, slightly escalating in difficulty as they progress 1 to 5. They were presumably designed as a progressive curriculum for the intended introduction into the Okinawan school system in 1905/07. As such, much modification was required, probably erasing IMO any clear history of its origins. One of many mysteries we must accept (at least for now) regarding karate history.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Any relation to North Shaolin monk fist boxing?

The Shaolin MA came from outside. You killed somebody. You hide yourself in Shaolin temple. You teach your MA to the monks.

The first time I visited the Shaolin temple was in 1980. China only opened few cities to the foreigner. During that visited, I walked through the whole temple. I counted there were only 4 monks. None of those monks was training MA (It was still a communist society back then).

 

[Same Trick]

The Shaolin MA came from outside. You killed somebody. You hide yourself in Shaolin temple. You teach your MA to the monks.

The first time I visited the Shaolin temple was in 1980. China only opened few cities to the foreigner. During that visited, I walked through the whole temple. I counted there were only 4 monks. None of those monks was training MA (It was still a communist society back then).

Wang Xiangzhai visited the temple a decade or two before chairman Mao takeover. Back then the temple was in ruin two or three monks taking care of the little to take care of at the grounds, one of the elderly monks remembered little Xingyiba but according to Wang has no skill. Doshin So founder of Japanese shorinji-kempo visited the temple around the same time and met same elderly monk but mainly recal drawing inspiration from the mural depicting monks in gongfu sparring.

But as legend say, upon the destruction of the Henan Shaolin 13(?) monks went south and established themselves there, I guess that’s the story that laid foundation to the Hongmen