Hsing i/Zing yi - a Root of Karate

[Kung Fu Wang]

True, but since the question was about Xingyiquan……

I don't like to look at from a MA style point of view. I like to look at from principal point of view. 6 Harmonies principle is above all MA styles (include XingYi).

- Taiji trains in slow speed because it's easier to coordinate your body parts in slow speed.
- Baji use heavy foot stomping to train body coordination.

All MA system try to achieve body unification (include XingYi, Taiji, Baji, ...). They may just use different training method.

 

[marvin8]

I don't like to look at from a MA style point of view. I like to look at from principal point of view. 6 Harmonies principle is above all MA styles (include XingYi).

- Taiji trains in slow speed because it's easier to coordinate your body parts in slow speed.

Taiji (e.g., Chang), 6 Harmonies Praying Mantis, Shuai Chiao diagonal striking and most CMAs/MAs do not "try to achieve coordinate lead foot and rear hand."

- Baji use heavy foot stomping to train body coordination.

All MA system try to achieve body unification (include XingYi, Taiji, Baji, ...). They may just use different training method.

Not by your definition. Whole body unification and your "coordinate hand and foot" are separate concepts. Not all MAs rely on "stepping/stomping to generate power." Most MAs can generate power by weight shifting. A problem with stepping with every punch is it's slower and telegraphs.

Can you post Xingyi or Baji sparring/fighting (movement, timing, energy [resistance]) showing "coordinate (rear) hand and foot?"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Taiji (e.g., Chang), 6 Harmonies Praying Mantis, Shuai Chiao diagonal striking and most CMAs/MAs do not "try to achieve coordinate lead foot and rear hand."


Not by your definition. Whole body unification and your "coordinate hand and foot" are separate concepts. Not all MAs rely on "stepping/stomping to generate power." Most MAs can generate power by weight shifting. A problem with stepping with every punch is it's slower and telegraphs.

Can you post Xingyi or Baji sparring/fighting (movement, timing, energy [resistance]) showing "coordinate (rear) hand and foot?"

Your rear hand can coordinate with either your leading foot, or your back foot.

6 harmonies (body unification) is more than just power generation. The human body is like 3 separate springs. Without training, each spring is compressed individually and release individually. With training, all 3 springs can be compressed at the same time and then release at the same time.

Again, you ask for sparring video. I don't have that many sparring/tournament videos to share here.

Body unification is used in Chinese wrestling. You can see in their training.

- Left arm pull,
- Right arm strike,
- Right leg kick back,

all try to start at the same time and finish at the same time. The order 1, 2 is given. 1 is compress. 2 is release.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't like to look at from a MA style point of view. I like to look at from principal point of view. 6 Harmonies principle is above all MA styles (include XingYi).

- Taiji trains in slow speed because it's easier to coordinate your body parts in slow speed.
- Baji use heavy foot stomping to train body coordination.

All MA system try to achieve body unification (include XingYi, Taiji, Baji, ...). They may just use different training method.

yes, but the OP was asking specifically about Xingyiquan

 

[marvin8]

Derived from Dai Shi Xinyiquan, which Li Luoneng learned, it's the oldest of the 'big three' IMA.
www.chinafrominside.com has some good interviews/articles on the history.
dai xinyi and xinyiliuhequan are it's ancestor arts, also influencing shaolin xinyiba.

A Monkey Steals Peach playlist - Exploring Xingyi Quan...

 

[mograph]

A Monkey Steals Peach playlist - Exploring Xingyi Quan...

Interesting video.
May take on li, qi, and obvious, subtle power: the goal is to distribute the effort through as many body structures as possible.

Benefits:

• each muscle or structure does less work for the same effect
• or, for the same amount of work per muscle or structure, a distributed effort has a greater effect.

Xingyiquan, like many arts, aims for this distributed effort.

 

[Same Trick]

I can understand you seeing similarities - Xingyiquan is definitely considered the linear neijiaquan. In terms of it's history and provenance, influence is very unlikely though. It's a northern CMA.
Derived from Dai Shi Xinyiquan, which Li Luoneng learned, it's the oldest of the 'big three' IMA.
www.chinafrominside.com has some good interviews/articles on the history.
dai xinyi and xinyiliuhequan are it's ancestor arts, also influencing shaolin xinyiba.

Despite superficial similarities, the power generation is very different from that used in Karate, and the power generation/shenfa is it's signature. dai xinyi squatting monkey can give an idea of this.

I’ve got this gut feeling long time that parts of Shorin-ryu share a common spot of origin with Xinyiquan more specific with the Dai-shi XYQ.

A fairly common hand/arm gesture/move done at very beginning of katas in Shorin-ryu especially the naihanchi kata is I believe a understanding lost in time move of Dai- XYQ’s squatting monkey exercise.

 

[Same Trick]

Very linear.
Santi shi stance practice is essential.
Taijiquan: Rubber ball. Baguazhang: spinning top. Xingyiquan: wrecking ball.

Watch this guy:

FYI ...

Pinyin: xingyi
Wade-Giles: hsing-i or hsing i
Yale: sying-yi or sying yi

Mandarin Chinese Romanization: Comparing Pinyin to Yale and Wade-Giles

however some of the old legendary Xingyiquan masters referred to the spinning top.

 

[Tigerwarrior]

Ok, let me start by saying I've never trained xing yi. I've only seen demonstrations and videos and read a book(good luck learning this stuff from a book near impossible) I do notice one similarity to this art and shotokan, they are both linear. That video of the guy doing punching and moving drills looked a bit similar to kihon punching drills in shotokan dojos. It does look similar, but there is more to this stuff than meets the eye. I've trained karate but like I said I read a book on xing yi, the philosophy and power generation is very different. In hard styles of karate they use the hips for power. In xing yi it is an internal art, the power generation is different, although it looks very similar there are big differences. I've also known a school that taught both shotokan and xing yi where I grew up, most of the blackbelts trained in both, mostly shotokan as their main focus and xing yi as a supplementary art. They are both definitely linear arts, I do not see a lineage connection even though I've questioned this before myself too. We all know karate came from kung fu then to Okinawa where they developed their own styles of karate from the teachings from China, then developed their own stuff. I know of arts that have been quoted as being related to karate from China. Like white crane boxing, and another northern art that the name I don't remember. But yeah definitely some styles that inspired karate. Maybe xing yi inspired karate but not in lineage. Kind of like I get inspiration from other arts but do not train them, but use that inspiration to develop my own stuff. Like I said I never trained xing yi but these are just my observations.

 

[Same Trick]

Any relation to North Shaolin monk fist boxing? This art may have influenced karate development.

Yes - Xinyiba.

Ji longfeng a master of spear methods as legend says created fist method out of his spear techniques, it’s said he resided for a while at the Shaolin temple and there his method came to be known as Xinyiba, later he taught outside Shaolin in Henan province where his fist method was called Xinyiquan.

You mention a “Wong” in the 1600’s that taught Xinyiquan to Yara who brought it to Okinawa, I’ve read this too long ago, a British researcher/karateka had come to that conclusion.

However in the 1600’s the only know figure of Xinyiquan is Ji Longfeng(the founder) and he taught his art in Henan.

I understand that Chatan Yara is supposed to have studied in Fujian province?

 

[Tigerwarrior]

Yes - Xinyiba.

Ji longfeng a master of spear methods as legend says created fist method out of his spear techniques, it’s said he resided for a while at the Shaolin temple and there his method came to be known as Xinyiba, later he taught outside Shaolin in Henan province where his fist method was called Xinyiquan.

You mention a “Wong” in the 1600’s that taught Xinyiquan to Yara who brought it to Okinawa, I’ve read this too long ago, a British researcher/karateka had come to that conclusion.

However in the 1600’s the only know figure of Xinyiquan is Ji Longfeng(the founder) and he taught his art in Henan.

I understand that Chatan Yara is supposed to have studied in Fujian province?

Fujian white crane is the Chinese art I hear is related to karate. One of them anyways.

 

[Same Trick]

Ok, let me start by saying I've never trained xing yi. I've only seen demonstrations and videos and read a book(good luck learning this stuff from a book near impossible) I do notice one similarity to this art and shotokan, they are both linear. That video of the guy doing punching and moving drills looked a bit similar to kihon punching drills in shotokan dojos. It does look similar, but there is more to this stuff than meets the eye. I've trained karate but like I said I read a book on xing yi, the philosophy and power generation is very different. In hard styles of karate they use the hips for power. In xing yi it is an internal art, the power generation is different, although it looks very similar there are big differences. I've also known a school that taught both shotokan and xing yi where I grew up, most of the blackbelts trained in both, mostly shotokan as their main focus and xing yi as a supplementary art. They are both definitely linear arts, I do not see a lineage connection even though I've questioned this before myself too. We all know karate came from kung fu then to Okinawa where they developed their own styles of karate from the teachings from China, then developed their own stuff. I know of arts that have been quoted as being related to karate from China. Like white crane boxing, and another northern art that the name I don't remember. But yeah definitely some styles that inspired karate. Maybe xing yi inspired karate but not in lineage. Kind of like I get inspiration from other arts but do not train them, but use that inspiration to develop my own stuff. Like I said I never trained xing yi but these are just my observations.

I’m a Shotokan practitioner for 20+ years, but that’s some 30 years ago.
30+ years ago I began learning XYQ .
Yeah the grinding kihon up and down the dojo floor is similar to XYQ training regime.
But there’s more similarities, as for techniques.
Karate has its 5 basic blocks, XYQ it’s 5 elements fists, so I stick with those.
First, you might not agree with my conclusion, but I’d say Gedan-barai and Shuto-uke are same just that one finish in lower level(gedan) the other at mid level(chudan). Then we have Uchi-uke and Age-uke also same but finish in mid level respectively at high level(jodan).

So, Im saying that Gedan-barai and Shuto- Uke directly correspond with XYQ Pi-Quan(splitting fist), and then Uchi-uke with Age-uke relates to XYQ Heng-quan(crossing fist) and Tsuan-quan(drilling fist).

The gedan-barai and shuto-uke of kyukoshinkai karate are especially similar to the xyq’s splitting fists variations, but then Oyama’s friend and mentor Kenich Sawai had extensively learnt XYQ/Yiquan from Wang Xiangzhai a famous master in China.

As for Shotokan, Masatoshi Nakayama had brief encounter with Chinese martial art training during his time in Manchuria although not with XYQ I guess.



But as you’ve noticed the power generation methods differ, parts of karate may share a same origin with XYQ, but quite far back in history.

 

[Same Trick]

Fujian white crane is the Chinese art I hear is related to karate. One of them anyways.

Fujian martial arts were the main CMA inspiration source for Okinawan karate.

Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu show clear relation with katas that also found in Fujian Kung fu such as white crane.

The famed XingYi/Yi quan master Wang Xiangzhai went south to Fujian in the early 1900’s to research and compare notes, now this just mine theory but I think possible Wang had a lead to eventual relation between XYQ and the martial arts of Fujian.

There is the theory of a southern Shaolin temple once located in Fujian .

 

[Xue Sheng]

For the record and for purposes of clarification
Xinyiquan and Xingyiquan are not the same art. Although Xingyiquan comes from Dai xinyi, they are not the aame

 

[Same Trick]

For the record and for purposes of clarification
Xinyiquan and Xingyiquan are not the same art. Although Xingyiquan comes from Dai xinyi, they are not the aame

Simplified genealogy of Xin/Xingyiquan : Xinyiba -> Xinyi Liuhe / Dai shi Xinyi -> Xingyiquan .

Li Luoneng the founder of Xingyiquan merged what he learned from Dai shi XYQ with his already mastery of tongbeiquan and called it Xingyiquan.
And actually on a “deeper” comparison view Xinyiquan and Xingyiquan share many similarities, to the point they are basically the same

 

[Xue Sheng]

Simplified genealogy of Xin/Xingyiquan : Xinyiba -> Xinyi Liuhe / Dai shi Xinyi -> Xingyiquan .

Li Luoneng the founder of Xingyiquan merged what he learned from Dai shi XYQ with his already mastery of tongbeiquan and called it Xingyiquan.
And actually on a “deeper” comparison view Xinyiquan and Xingyiquan share many similarities, to the point they are basically the same

Yes, I know, however they are not the same IMO. To me, they should not be used indiscriminately in a conversation about xingyi or xinyi. They are not IMO interchangeable

 

[Same Trick]

Yes, I know, however they are not they are not same IMO. To me, they should not be used indiscriminately in a conversation about xingyi or xinyi. They are not IMO interchangeable

As the topic is a question if Karate has its roots in “Hsing I(Xingyiquan)” I think we have to look back in history to Xinyiquan the “parent” art of Xingyiquan.
I don’t really think Li Luoneng intended a new style when he changed Xin to Xing, heck it could have been just a mistake switch the two words sound just the same.

 

[Xue Sheng]

As the topic is a question if Karate has its roots in “Hsing I(Xingyiquan)” I think we have to look back in history to Xinyiquan the “parent” art of Xingyiquan.
I don’t really think Li Luoneng intended a new style when he changed Xin to Xing, heck it could have been just a mistake switch the two words sound just the same.

“you think”
He also modified the style, not just the name.

You can make an argument that taijiquan roots are in long fist, does not make it long fist. Taiji mantis name is similar to taiji but it is not taiji. Yiquan, for the most part comes from Xingyiquan, but it is not xingyi

And i also do not think xingyiquan is the root of karate

I work within historical facts and look at speculation for what it is worth. Some good some questionable, some bad

And yes the names are similar, but not the same in translation or in the Chinese characters. Which is why, IMO one needs to be careful what one says in such conversations

 

[Same Trick]

“you think”
He also modified the style, not just the name.

You can make an argument that taijiquan roots are in long fist, does not make it long fist. Taiji mantis name is similar to taiji but it is not taiji. Yiquan, for the most part comes from Xingyiquan, but it is not xingyi

And i also do not think xingyiquan is the root of karate

I work within historical facts and look at speculation for what it is worth. Some good some questionable, some bad

And yes the names are similar, but not the same in translation or in the Chinese characters. Which is why, IMO one needs to be careful what one says in such conversations

Yes sure, “I think”. Even the most well known Xin/xingyiquan teachers and organizations in China keep researching, the history is not really set in stone.

It’s known that Li Luoneng was knowledgeable in tongbeiquan before he took to study Xinyiquan so that most certainly had some influence, but then maybe not too much since there are similarities between the two arts ,body type may also play part why some changes may come around.

Yes Xin and Xing sound similar as I mentioned, so it may have been a mistake somewhere in line when it was written down, not at all an impossible theory.

You mention Taijiquan, there are 5 major styles of TJQ, on surface they can look quite different but they all are related just as Xinyiquan’s different versions + Xingyiquan’s versions are, just that all taiji styles choose to keep palling them Taiji, actually wasn’t it so that Yang style was first to be named Taiji even before the older Chen style ?

Actually before they took Taiji for their name it’s said it was called “Longfist”

 

[Same Trick]

In the city I now have lived for the past 7 years Xinyi-Liuhequan hold a strong position in its wushu community and I have some regular connection with the group and have included some of its exercises in my own Xingyi practice. Take the horse shape(one version of it) of XYLHQ, it’s directly related to Xingyiquan’s splitting fist/ Dragon shape/ Bear-Eagle shape.

But not only similarities in shape/forms but also in spirit, quick spirited footwork

Originally, that will say original origin it’s said that there was only the “three old fists”, they are still there, but expanded into five elements and/or into 10/12 animals depending on witch Xinyi or Xingyi method one look at, but the core specific is same through them all.