How Wing Chun is supposed to look...in my book

[Tez3]

Sparring is nothing like real life? Wow! Do you expect that people won't punch and kick you? I wasn't taking a jab at rbsd just trying to see where you're coming from. How do you put the techniques you train to the test? What in your book gets close to real life? Obviously you can't perfectly simulate real life but sparring is close, it brings resistance, unpredictability and aggression to the picture all of which are very real things you should be able to handle. Please elaborate and tell us how you train for real life.

Ballen's real life training is his real life job. I imagine he can handle very well resistance, unpredictability and aggression to the point where we could all take a lesson from him.

 

[ballen0351]

Sparring is nothing like real life? Wow! Do you expect that people won't punch and kick you?
I wasn't taking a jab at rbsd just trying to see where you're coming from. How do you put the techniques you train to the test? What in your book gets close to real life? Obviously you can't perfectly simulate real life but sparring is close, it brings resistance, unpredictability and aggression to the picture all of which are very real things you should be able to handle. Please elaborate and tell us how you train for real life.

Sorry but punching and kicking in real life is not like they do in sparring. 2 people dont square up and trade blows in real life. Ive been punched and kicked in real life its never been anything like sparing. Sparring is two people that both train an art and agree to a set of rules and are working on techniques and most importantly they are NOT trying to hurt eachother.
I train for scenarios, I train repetition, I train for natural responses to attacks. For example I have trained my reaction to a right hook over 10000 times. I do it over and ove and over so if someone throws a hook at me, my response will be reflex and Ill react without thinking. Ive done that for several common attacks.
I train for the things Ive seen in the real world and things I believe will happen in the real world. I dont trade blows with people I dont hit people to score points I dont spar to build my skills. I do spar sometimes because its fun. The real world isnt fun.
Im not saying my way is the best or even better then yours. Im saying in my opinion my way works for what I do

 

[Mephisto]

Ballen's real life training is his real life job. I imagine he can handle very well resistance, unpredictability and aggression to the point where we could all take a lesson from him.

That's great, but everyone is not an LEO, and I've trained with many cops who would disagree with his view. Cops are people too, and they can be wrong.

 

[ballen0351]

Shoot Im wrong at least 10 times a day ask my wife she will tell you

 

[Steve]

Ballen's real life training is his real life job. I imagine he can handle very well resistance, unpredictability and aggression to the point where we could all take a lesson from him.

This is so true. I think we all have to realize that our training cannot replace experience. The idea of training is to prepare ourselves as best we can for the transition from an artificial training environment to the chaos of reality. Sparring gets us pretty close in some ways. Quality scenario based training gets close in other ways. But neither can replace actual experience.

If ballen uses the skills day to day, he's got a level of understanding I'll likely never have, and I'd be foolish to dismiss his observations. Same with drop bear or tez or jks or anyone else with Practical expertise.

 

[Tez3]

That's great, but everyone is not an LEO, and I've trained with many cops who would disagree with his view. Cops are people too, and they can be wrong.

Yep, we can that's true but you were suggesting that his training had no basis in reality to the point of being sarcastic about his not expecting to be hit etc. Police officers may disagree with methods chosen for training but I don't know any that would disagree that what they do doesn't prepare them for resistance, unpredictability and aggression. All methods police officers use to train will train for this this because that's what the job is has loads of.

 

[Steve]

That's great, but everyone is not an LEO, and I've trained with many cops who would disagree with his view. Cops are people too, and they can be wrong.

id say that it's far more likely that both are right. In any what if scenario, we naturally fill in the blanks based upon our own experiences.

 

[Mephisto]

Sorry but punching and kicking in real life is not like they do in sparring. 2 people dont square up and trade blows in real life. Ive been punched and kicked in real life its never been anything like sparing. Sparring is two people that both train an art and agree to a set of rules and are working on techniques and most importantly they are NOT trying to hurt eachother.
I train for scenarios, I train repetition, I train for natural responses to attacks. For example I have trained my reaction to a right hook over 10000 times. I do it over and ove and over so if someone throws a hook at me, my response will be reflex and Ill react without thinking. Ive done that for several common attacks.
I train for the things Ive seen in the real world and things I believe will happen in the real world. I dont trade blows with people I dont hit people to score points I dont spar to build my skills. I do spar sometimes because its fun. The real world isnt fun.
Im not saying my way is the best or even better then yours. Im saying in my opinion my way works for what I do

That's a reasonable reply. How do you train avoid the hooks and other attacks? Probably the same way I do or something similiar. Than you can put on some head gear and have someone aggressively try to hook punch you, they can mix in other common attacks too, and before you know it you're sparring. Don't you think all arts seek to train a response to become reflex? I know I certainly do in boxing and in FMA. The goal isn't to trade blows, it's to ko the other guy. But when one shot doesn't ko the guy and he punches back you're trading blows.

The needs of an Leo are different than most people and an Leo is better equipped to handle a confrontation that your average person and the confrontations you face are different than those an average person faces. It makes sense that an Leo would train differently.

 

[Mephisto]

Yep, we can that's true but you were suggesting that his training had no basis in reality to the point of being sarcastic about his not expecting to be hit etc. Police officers may disagree with methods chosen for training but I don't know any that would disagree that what they do doesn't prepare them for resistance, unpredictability and aggression. All methods police officers use to train will train for this this because that's what the job is has loads of.

I didn't say his training had no basis in reality. I questioned his assertion that sparring is nothing like reality. There are several clear commonalities between sparring and a real fight, so I believe he is wrong that sparring is nothing like real life but I assume that his trainibg has some basis in reality. I'd say that pretty much any guy who throws a punch is training something that has a basis in reality. I don't agree that all methods cops train will prepare them for resistance, unless the drills specifically have a resisting partner.

 

[Tez3]

It will depend I think on what you think a 'real' fight will look like, there are those who think it looks like the films where the attackers will go for the 'hero/ine one by one neatly waiting until one attacker is KO'd before attacking, others who think it's going to be a clean one on one.
Sparring is useful for many things already covered but I'm not sure they are useful for preparing someone for a 'fight' in reality. The sheer suddenness can take many by surprise, the way the attack happens may mean it's not much of a fight, real fights are messy and sparring is limited in what it can teach. Some of the ablest brawlers don't do martial arts and don't ever spar.

 

[Hanzou]

It will depend I think on what you think a 'real' fight will look like, there are those who think it looks like the films where the attackers will go for the 'hero/ine one by one neatly waiting until one attacker is KO'd before attacking, others who think it's going to be a clean one on one.
Sparring is useful for many things already covered but I'm not sure they are useful for preparing someone for a 'fight' in reality. The sheer suddenness can take many by surprise, the way the attack happens may mean it's not much of a fight, real fights are messy and sparring is limited in what it can teach. Some of the ablest brawlers don't do martial arts and don't ever spar.

Can't say I agree with that. Ever stop to wonder why every art that forms the core of MMA are MAs that are based around pretty heavy sparring? You can tell pretty quickly which styles have a pretty heavy sparring, and which ones don't.

 

[Tez3]

Can't say I agree with that. Ever stop to wonder why every art that forms the core of MMA are MAs that are based around pretty heavy sparring? You can tell pretty quickly which styles have a pretty heavy sparring, and which ones don't.

Then I don't think you read what I wrote which was nothing to do with styles of martial arts at all just that often the expectation of what a fight is like doesn't marry up to what it is actually like.
there really isn't much that prepares someone for a brawl that starts out, they may know technically what to do, taking and giving punches and kicks aren't the problem. It's the psychological impact of actually having people try to kill you that can cause the problem and no amount of heavy sparring is going to deal with that whatever some might think because they know in their head it's sparring, they may get hurt but not killed, raped or both. You can train soldiers up to deal with every eventuality in war, (and they do), but soldiers first experience of being in a fire fight is something he isn't as ready for as they think they are. Likewise a proper brawling, confusing melee that is a brawl in a bar for example.

 

[Jake104]

Sorry but punching and kicking in real life is not like they do in sparring. 2 people dont square up and trade blows in real life. Ive been punched and kicked in real life its never been anything like sparing. Sparring is two people that both train an art and agree to a set of rules and are working on techniques and most importantly they are NOT trying to hurt eachother.
I train for scenarios, I train repetition, I train for natural responses to attacks. For example I have trained my reaction to a right hook over 10000 times. I do it over and ove and over so if someone throws a hook at me, my response will be reflex and Ill react without thinking. Ive done that for several common attacks.
I train for the things Ive seen in the real world and things I believe will happen in the real world. I dont trade blows with people I dont hit people to score points I dont spar to build my skills. I do spar sometimes because its fun. The real world isnt fun.
Im not saying my way is the best or even better then yours. Im saying in my opinion my way works for what I do

I think the worse thing you can do in a real situation is to square off with someone. Once you square off it becomes a 50/50% chance. Any advantage you just had as a trained fighter is lost. That's why in the ring they square you off. To make it fair. In the street fair is to risky. I want the element of suprise on my side.. This is why I train in a neutral stance for self defense situations.

 

[ballen0351]

Can't say I agree with that. Ever stop to wonder why every art that forms the core of MMA are MAs that are based around pretty heavy sparring? You can tell pretty quickly which styles have a pretty heavy sparring, and which ones don't.

I would assume because sparring is close to what you encounter in MMA. So it lends itself better to the rules.

 

[ballen0351]

. You can train soldiers up to deal with every eventuality in war, (and they do), but soldiers first experience of being in a fire fight is something he isn't as ready for as they think they are. Likewise a proper brawling, confusing melee that is a brawl in a bar for example.

Yep Nobody knows what they will do when crap hits the fan until the crap actually hits the fan

 

[Tez3]

Some fights though very few are exactly as you would see in a bar room brawl in a Western lol. We had one up not that long ago, no one got hurt as that wasn't really anyone's intention but it was quite funny. We had a large section of Royal Marine Commandos up here on exercise and before going home a couple of them wanted some cigarettes so they stopped the wagon outside a local pub and a couple of lads went in only to come flying out chased by a lot of soldiers, the Royal Marines jumped out of the wagon and everyone piled in. It was more or less over by the time the Royal Military police, ourselves and the civvy coppers arrived but as we dragged everyone off each other they all had cuts, bruises and broad grins. Honour was satisfied, the bootnecks went back to their base happy at bashing a few squaddies and the squaddies were happy at bashing a few bootnecks. If the authorities hadn't turned up it would have most likely ended with them all in the bar drinking. We do have to be careful in these fights though because when the RMPs turn up, its just as likely that all those fighting will turn on them cos no one likes military policemen bless their little cotton socks.

 

[Jake104]

Then I don't think you read what I wrote which was nothing to do with styles of martial arts at all just that often the expectation of what a fight is like doesn't marry up to what it is actually like.
there really isn't much that prepares someone for a brawl that starts out, they may know technically what to do, taking and giving punches and kicks aren't the problem. It's the psychological impact of actually having people try to kill you that can cause the problem and no amount of heavy sparring is going to deal with that whatever some might think because they know in their head it's sparring, they may get hurt but not killed, raped or both. You can train soldiers up to deal with every eventuality in war, (and they do), but soldiers first experience of being in a fire fight is something he isn't as ready for as they think they are. Likewise a proper brawling, confusing melee that is a brawl in a bar for example.

So true! Most people will become overwhelmed by fear.

 

[Hanzou]

Then I don't think you read what I wrote which was nothing to do with styles of martial arts at all just that often the expectation of what a fight is like doesn't marry up to what it is actually like.
there really isn't much that prepares someone for a brawl that starts out, they may know technically what to do, taking and giving punches and kicks aren't the problem. It's the psychological impact of actually having people try to kill you that can cause the problem and no amount of heavy sparring is going to deal with that whatever some might think because they know in their head it's sparring, they may get hurt but not killed, raped or both. You can train soldiers up to deal with every eventuality in war, (and they do), but soldiers first experience of being in a fire fight is something he isn't as ready for as they think they are. Likewise a proper brawling, confusing melee that is a brawl in a bar for example.

I never said that sparring is a replacement for experience. I'm saying that sparring is the closest thing to fighting experience you can get while training. Additionally, there's a marked difference in performance for styles that spar, and styles that don't spar. I've seen it and experienced it personally.

Again, which is why the core styles of MMA are all styles that have a pretty strong base of heavy sparring. MMA isn't a street fight, or a self defense situation, however its the closest thing we have to controlled and relatively safe "fighting".

 

[Hanzou]

I would assume because sparring is close to what you encounter in MMA. So it lends itself better to the rules.

Let's say an Aikido school invited a group of boxers to spar with the Aikidokas and see how to apply their Aikido against someone throwing fast punches at them. Would that improve the abilities of the Aikidoka, or make them worse?

 

[Tez3]

I never said that sparring is a replacement for experience. I'm saying that sparring is the closest thing to fighting experience you can get while training. Additionally, there's a marked difference in performance for styles that spar, and styles that don't spar. I've seen it and experienced it personally.

Again, which is why the core styles of MMA are all styles that have a pretty strong base of heavy sparring. MMA isn't a street fight, or a self defense situation, however its the closest thing we have to controlled and relatively safe "fighting".

Yes, dear, we know.