How Wing Chun is supposed to look...in my book

[Tez3]

I'm not sure I understand this, are you questioning why a system would teach an unarmed person to defend against an armed attack such as a knife?



Again, I'm not sure I understand this. If you train an art that spars you are training to defend an attack from an experienced fighter. Any sportive system like judo for example trains you how to defend against a skilled fighter. If you can handle a skilled fighter you can handle an unskilled fighter but the reverse is not true.

No, what I'm questioning is why he's saying he would defend someone who is carrying a weapon which is what he said. Personally I'd defend myself against someone with a weapon. the only people who defend armed assailants are the lawyers they employ after they've been caught by the police, you don't defend people who go around armed with intent to harm.

 

[Mephisto]

No, what I'm questioning is why he's saying he would defend someone who is carrying a weapon which is what he said. Personally I'd defend myself against someone with a weapon. the only people who defend armed assailants are the lawyers they employ after they've been caught by the police, you don't defend people who go around armed with intent to harm.

Ah, well I'm sure it was a typo. Maybe not though, maybe you're just being pedantic. I'm not sure why someone who has a weapon would need defending maybe in some very specific scenario. Not sure too many arts cover that.

 

[ballen0351]

Again, I'm not sure I understand this. If you train an art that spars you are training to defend an attack from an experienced fighter.

No your training to spar.

Any sportive system like judo for example trains you how to defend against a skilled fighter.

No it trains you to compete against other Judo players

If you can handle a skilled fighter you can handle an unskilled fighter

No if they were true you would never have an upset. You wouldnt need to fight at all just write your skills on paper and who ever has a list that is longer wins

but the reverse is not true.

Nope again that comes down to the individual not the style

 

[Tez3]

Ah, well I'm sure it was a typo. Maybe not though, maybe you're just being pedantic. I'm not sure why someone who has a weapon would need defending maybe in some very specific scenario. Not sure too many arts cover that.

No, I'm not being pedantic, it's what was written, it says exactly that and it's not understandable because no one defends armed assailants.

 

[J W]

No, I'm not being pedantic, it's what was written, it says exactly that and it's not understandable because no one defends armed assailants.

Oh, English. I'm still not certain that Americans and Brits speak the same language.

 

[Tez3]

Oh, English. I'm still not certain that Americans and Brits speak the same language.

Yep I read it exactly as it was written, you defend someone when you look after them, stand up for them, speak up for them etc

 

[Mephisto]

Well as usual the wc crowd is getting increasingly irrational. We're a few posts shy of issuing challenges that will never happen and the inevitable rage quit.

No your training to spar.


No it trains you to compete against other Judo players

No if they were true you would never have an upset. You wouldnt need to fight at all just write your skills on paper and who ever has a list that is longer wins


Nope again that comes down to the individual not the style

Guess what, what you spar someone that has experience YOU'RE sparring someone with experience unless it's their first time sparring. In judo matches you'll be working defenses and counters. In a competition you still work defense and counters while you compete. It's not an isolated bubble where no fighting skills are used. After that you pretty much lose all coherence. Yes upsets happen but that doesn't change the fact that martial arts competitors fight other skilled competitors and also defend attacks from said competitors.

 

[ballen0351]

Well as usual the wc crowd is getting increasingly irrational. We're a few posts shy of issuing challenges that will never happen and the inevitable rage

Guess what, what you spar someone that has experience YOU'RE sparring someone with experience unless it's their first time sparring
[/quote]
Guess what that has nothing to do with self defense. It has nothing to do with anything outside your school. It has nothing to do with styles

. In judo matches you'll be working defenses and counters. In a competition you still work defense and counters while you compete

Great it works well against other judo players as long as you follow the rules again has nothing to do with self defense. its all about the sport. Nothing wrong with playing games Im just not into it

. It's not an isolated bubble where no fighting skills are used. After that you pretty much lose all coherence. Yes upsets happen but that doesn't change the fact that martial arts competitors fight other skilled competitors and also defend attacks from said competitors.

And that has nothing to do with STYLES which is what your were talking about comparing styles that do spar vs styles that dont. So in reality styles dont matter its all about the person. There is no BETTER style. Actually my main style I practice if I took it into the ring Id never loose. But Firearms are against the rules

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So essentially your WC training revolves around fighting armed opponents and multiple opponents, over countering the attacks of a skilled unarmed fighter. AKA Self Defense vs Competition Fighting.

By that logic, you're arguing that a WC fighter is better at taking down armed assailants on the street than skilled unarmed brawlers in the ring.

Not necessarily. Let's look at some (completely made up) figures to see why that might not be the case.

Suppose an optimum set of unarmed tactics against a skilled puncher gets you a 90% chance of success, but an optimum set of unarmed tactics against a knife-wielding attacker gets you only a 30% chance of success.

Now suppose martial art A cuts out a bunch of techniques that are effective against a puncher, but dangerous to try against an attacker with a knife. (clinching, covering like a boxer, etc). That might drop art A's effectiveness vs a skilled puncher down to 50%, while leaving its effectiveness vs the knife at 30%.

Meanwhile, martial art B keeps all those techniques and thus manages 90% effectiveness against a puncher, but success against the knife drops down to 10%.

This gives you a situation where martial art A is superior for knife defense, art B is superior for punch defense, but A still has a higher success against the punch than against the knife.

Grammar has nothing to do with it. You are saying that you are defending an armed assailant. You are saying you defend an attack, that's just nonsense. Nobody does that.

Use of the phrase "defend an attack/punch/armed attacker" to mean "defend (against) an attack/punch/armed attacker" isn't exactly standard English, but I've seen it before. It's pretty clear from context what was meant.

If you can handle a skilled fighter you can handle an unskilled fighter but the reverse is not true.

Yes ... and no. There are always tradeoffs to be made, and the ones you might choose against a skilled fighter are not necessarily the ones you might make against an unskilled one. (I'll expand on this later - I need to be heading out to the dojo now.)

 

[Hanzou]

Guess what that has nothing to do with self defense. It has nothing to do with anything outside your school. It has nothing to do with styles

Great it works well against other judo players as long as you follow the rules again has nothing to do with self defense. its all about the sport. Nothing wrong with playing games Im just not into it

And that has nothing to do with STYLES which is what your were talking about comparing styles that do spar vs styles that dont. So in reality styles dont matter its all about the person. There is no BETTER style. Actually my main style I practice if I took it into the ring Id never loose. But Firearms are against the rules

If it was all about the person, we should be seeing a much wider variety if styles in MMA, and quite a few more "pure" styles than what we're seeing in the sport. The fact of the matter is that you can't enter the cage without style x,y, and z, or stylistic equivalents. That kind of proves that it isn't just the person, but the style as well.

 

[Tez3]

Use of the phrase "defend an attack/punch/armed attacker" to mean "defend (against) an attack/punch/armed attacker" isn't exactly standard English, but I've seen it before. It's pretty clear from context what was meant.

No, it wasn't clear from context it was a very short post with no other explanation. If you have seen it before you obviously know what it means, I haven't, so didn't.

 

[ballen0351]

If it was all about the person, we should be seeing a much wider variety if styles in MMA, and quite a few more "pure" styles than what we're seeing in the sport. The fact of the matter is that you can't enter the cage without style x,y, and z, or stylistic equivalents. That kind of proves that it isn't just the person, but the style as well.

Nonsense. Damn near every style is represented in MMA at some level.

 

[Mephisto]

Not necessarily. Let's look at some (completely made up) figures to see why that might not be the case.

Suppose an optimum set of unarmed tactics against a skilled puncher gets you a 90% chance of success, but an optimum set of unarmed tactics against a knife-wielding attacker gets you only a 30% chance of success.

Now suppose martial art A cuts out a bunch of techniques that are effective against a puncher, but dangerous to try against an attacker with a knife. (clinching, covering like a boxer, etc). That might drop art A's effectiveness vs a skilled puncher down to 50%, while leaving its effectiveness vs the knife at 30%.

Meanwhile, martial art B keeps all those techniques and thus manages 90% effectiveness against a puncher, but success against the knife drops down to 10%.

This gives you a situation where martial art A is superior for knife defense, art B is superior for punch defense, but A still has a higher success against the punch than against the knife.



Use of the phrase "defend an attack/punch/armed attacker" to mean "defend (against) an attack/punch/armed attacker" isn't exactly standard English, but I've seen it before. It's pretty clear from context what was meant.



Yes ... and no. There are always tradeoffs to be made, and the ones you might choose against a skilled fighter are not necessarily the ones you might make against an unskilled one. (I'll expand on this later - I need to be heading out to the dojo now.)

I think most of what you said makes sense. I'd argued that any empty hand vs knife is pretty low percentage but I think that's beside the point, I see where you're going.

 

[Hanzou]

Nonsense. Damn near every style is represented in MMA at some level.

Eh, not really. Perhaps some theories and concepts, but every MA is definitely not represented.

 

[ballen0351]

Eh, not really. Perhaps some theories and concepts, but every MA is definitely not represented.

Prove it

 

[Hanzou]

Prove it

Post some vids of guys doing Aikido in the cage.

 

[ballen0351]

Post some vids of guys doing Aikido in the cage.

You do it. Im not the one making claims that I know EVERY MMA fighter around the world and I know what they are trained in. Thats you so you do it

Not to mention MMA is a sport not real life so..........

 

[Mephisto]

I think most of what you said makes sense. I'd argued that any empty hand vs knife is pretty low percentage but I think that's beside the point, I see where you're going.

Accidently posted and was unable to edit my above post. It's important to realize where an arts specialty lies. Some specialties like blade defense are more important for street, understandably. Blade vs empty hand stacks the odd against you ideally one would have both blade and empty hand skills. However, I've never known wc to be an art sought out for blade defense skills. As an FMA practitioner, I've run across quite a few wc guys taking up FMA for blade defense and ability, and the wc reaction needs some significant modification based on my experience.

 

[Transk53]

Post some vids of guys doing Aikido in the cage.

Hey do me a favour, get around to reading the other thread that you have been loud!!

 

[Mephisto]

Nonsense. Damn near every style is represented in MMA at some level.

How do you figure?