Well yes, putting on a belt of a certain color isn't going to magically give you any extra skill and knowledge, its the other way around, you wear a belt of whatever color because you have the skill and knowledge that the belt represents.
How the Japanese view of the black belt
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
- Start date
Some students don't care about earning belts and I respect that. The problem is when people try to tell other people that they should make the same choices as them in regards to not caring about earning belts.
Hyoho
2nd Black Belt
But it's still a very Western concept. In my kids dojo that is if they wore belts there would be different colours. In High School around 55 all above shodan so they all have "black belts". All adults have practiced since childhood and all are black belt ranked. So who cares? Its kids thing which actually is why Kano Jigoro, head of education invented it in the first place.
It looks like I left a word out of my sentence "a test may be made much harder for a bunch of reasons". I'm not saying it should happen, but I also can't think of any strong reason it shouldn't.
When I was in school, it was:
- 94-11 A
- 86-93 B
- 80-86 C
- 70-79 D
- 69 and below F
And again, it depends why a difficulty jump exists. In the NGAA with ikkyu, it's because it falls at a point where they're making sure only serious folks (and those who are good enough) can get to the student teaching, because that takes a lot of the supervising instructor's time and energy. And the significant jump in difficulty for shodan is because they want to make sure only those who are very committed (and even better enough) get that instructor certification.
I made my requirements more gradual. That resulted in the first rank taking more than a year for most folks to reach, as opposed to about 3 months (often less) in the NGAA. I also moved the instructor certification away from the core curriculum (and ranking), so it could be done independent of rank, which removed some of the jump at ikkyu and shodan. Is mine better? I liked it better, but I think most folks would prefer the climbing curve (each belt taking about 50% longer than the one before it) in the NGAA.
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Correction: it was a kids thing. It was adopted by some systems (mostly outside of Japan, as I understand it, but not entirely unknown in Japan) for use with adults, too.
Hyoho
2nd Black Belt
But generally MA in Japan is guided by Monbusho 文部省 (Education authority) Kano Jigoro was it's director. Basically the old system is still maintained. Anything else is a variation invented by an association. Anything below Rokudan is only prefectural level and you need nanadan to do any national demonstration. The bar is high but has come down as some associations have given up on 9/10 dan level.
That is still about six or seven points in between grades. In that system, you don't have to get an 100 to get an A and where 86-99 is a B.
Ranks in the martial arts are different than letter grades in school but the concept is the same, it doesn't make much sense for a rank or grade to be proportionally much harder than the rank or grade before it. Naturally it will be harder with it being a higher rank or grade but it seems unbalanced to me if it's much harder.
Yes in many dojos you are expected to teach when you make first degree black belt but if that's the case you should be first introduced to teaching in the brown belt ranks. In the first dojo I started training at seriously I was expected to do some teaching at brown belt. That is one of the ways in which you're being groomed for the black belt which if you ask me is what the brown belt ranks, particularly ikkyu brown belt, is about, grooming students for the black belt.
Anyway the whole point of this thread is that for there to be a big jump from ikkyu to shodan, a much bigger jump than there is from nikkyu to ikkyu in terms of time and difficulty, for it to take much longer and be much harder to get from ikkyu to shodan than it is to get from nikkyu to ikkyu, is very much an American thing but not a Japanese thing, to the best of my knowledge.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Man, I'm a pretty old dude, and I've never seen or heard of that grading scale before. Is it possible that was unique to your school? That seems pretty rigorous.
In all my years and experience with schools in several different states in the North and South, I've only ever experienced the scale mentioned by Photonguy. The more exotic ones would add plusses and minuses, and in Seattle public schools, they used E instead of F.
As someone who was perpetually at night school and summer school anyway, I'm really glad that 60 and above was passing, or I might never have graduated.
That was the grading scale for all the schools I attended through all of grade school (including 5 years in a private Catholic school). Maybe it was just the grading scale in SC at the time.Man, I'm a pretty old dude, and I've never seen or heard of that grading scale before. Is it possible that was unique to your school? That seems pretty rigorous.
In all my years and experience with schools in several different states in the North and South, I've only ever experienced the scale mentioned by Photonguy. The more exotic ones would add plusses and minuses, and in Seattle public schools, they used E instead of F.
As someone who was perpetually at night school and summer school anyway, I'm really glad that 60 and above was passing, or I might never have graduated.
Interesting. And just like earning belts in the martial arts, the numeric systems and cut-off points for grading don't mean anything by themselves. Getting a 90% in one school might be tougher than a 94% in a different school with a different teacher. Or not.
Most schools do use plusses and minuses with their grades, from my observations. And I've heard of E occasionally being used in place of F.
True, I did know of a fellow from Boy Scouts who was a straight A student and top of the class when he was in public school, then he switched to this really hard private school where he was getting mostly Bs and Cs and was in the middle of the class.
I still remember the exact numeric score that equates to each letter, plus, and minus. Because that's very useful information to have ready to hand in the professional world.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
To be fair, I get it. Usefulness has little to do with what my brain locks in and what it lets go. If you haven’t noticed, I remember all kinds of minutiae that is of marginal importance anywhere, much less in a professional environment.I still remember the exact numeric score that equates to each letter, plus, and minus. Because that's very useful information to have ready to hand in the professional world.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
I'm back. Got a new computer and took a while to get back on the site.
I do fully agree with you. In fact, I failed my brown belt test and had to retest. (This was in 1969 when the top instructors knew each other and still had direct links with their style's master. Reputation was important). IMO, brown belts should look sharp and have advanced ability in all the basics. By this, I mean technically correct form and very good speed, power and focus, and be able to hold their own in fighting.
These solid skills are needed to provide the platform for further development as a black belt.
The main difference between brown and black belt skills (Again, IMO), is poise, or smoothness in execution of the techniques. This will enhance all the brown belt skills I mentioned. This is in addition to learning the more advanced kata and self-defense skills. I think of it as the brown belt sculpture is fully carved and 1st degree black shows the sanding process has begun. Later degrees get to the polishing.
The black belt test is often longer as a greater amount of new material has been added than on previous tests and the student is put under more physical and mental pressure to test conditioning and poise. It's not just the difference between an A or a B grade in school, but more like having to pass the SAT to get into the university, or the GRE (graduate record exam) to get into grad school. It's an accomplishment that should be savored. The more you work for something, the more it's appreciated.
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So were your instructors for the orient? When I made Shodan in Goju Ryu this past October some of the stuff I had to do was I had to break two bricks, run three miles, attend a two day seminar for seven hours each day, that among other stuff. Going from Ikkyu to Shodan was quite a bit harder than going from Nikkyu to Ikkyu at my Goju Ryu dojo, but my sensei is from the US, he was born in the US and grew up in the US.
A sensei from Japan I would think would make the Ikkyu test almost as hard as the Shodan test, so if you had the kind of requirements for Shodan that I had, for Ikkyu you would have to break one brick and run two miles and attend a one day seminar for seven hours. That's how it would be with a sensei from Japan although not necessarily with a sensei from the USA.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
A goju ryu sensei in Okinawa would likely have you break 0 bricks, run 0 miles and make you attend 0 seminars for black. Your karate however would be thoroughly tested in all respects. All the other stuff is mostly a Western thing - But not in any dojo I attended, thank goodness.
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Are you sure about that? Your username suggests your style is isshin ryu but do you know much about goju ryu? My sensei has been to Okinawa multiple times and has trained under Tetsuhiro Hokama, the current president of the goju ryu system.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
I know a goodly amount about traditional Okinawan karate in general (and base my comment on this and my years of experience) and have a little familiarity with your style. But the kind of things you're talking about I think have less to do with style and more about the head instructor of the dojo. Why not ask your instructor how testing in Okinawa compares with the West?
I don’t think there’s necessarily the hard cultural divide you suggest. I definitely know US schools that represent both of these extremes, as well as points between them.
