How old for Black Belt?

[vincefuess]

Oh man- just ten per post??? I love these smiley guys! Can't get enough These little dudes are too much fun Do ya have one that barfs? That would be awesome and useful!!:rofl:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Tangent....

http://forums.rustaz.com/misc.php?action=showsmilies

Go shopping and PM me the top couple y'all like. Might add em next upgrade.

BTW: Fan-Cons another forum I run. Needs people.



/tangent

 

[vincefuess]

Barf is great!!! Bomb would be quite useful here. Blue boingy was cool, but not sure how to use him.

 

[Rob_Broad]

I kind of like the the tank, it is what I would want to have with me at a knife fight.

The barfing doesn't do much for me but the flush was cool.

 

[DWright]

I like the 18 year age limit as a guideline. Jr. BB for those under that age. If a younger student shows the maturity, and the skill then the instructor can evaluate that student for Black Belt. I believe those cases would be rare.

 

[Jim M]

I agree that there are too many 8 and 9 year old blackbelts out there. It seems that 18 would be a good general rule with few excepteions. If a 16 year old has been training diligently for 10 years and demonstrates the proper attitude and skills, it seems unfair to say that the person cannot earn a black belt until s/he is 18.

But then again, I saw an orange belt that I used to study with who was incredibly respected. He could mop the floor with many black belts (certainly any that did not deserve the rank and probably some that did). The guy was huge, powerful, incredibly quick for a 250+ pound man, and had studied various martial arts for nearly 10 years! He just was not interested in earning belt rank. While I was there, the senior instructor insisted that the person work towards gaining rank and he quickly advanced. The rank was certainly deserved.

If you're good (or bad for that matter) it really doesn't matter what belt you're wearing. I guess any student who was under 18 who really deserved a black belt could live with wearing a brown belt, and those that couldn't probably don't deserve the black belt rank to begin with. Now I've gone and contradicted my intitial statement.

I guess it's a case by case decision to be decided by the instructor. Many will base that decision on $$$$.

Jim

 

[Kirk]

The general consensus of this post seems to be that a mature
child around the age of 16, if well deserved, should be given
his black belt, but otherwise .. wait until he's 18. At my school,
my instructor gives Jr Black Belts to his kids, basically, in taekwon
do. Then they start to earn tabs on that belt, for doing
techniques in the kenpo curriculumn. At this point, they're of an
age where they can ascertain that this style is different from that
of TKD, and the techniques can have fatal results. That's where
the maturity comes in for me, and I think it's something that
should be considered. Teaching a 5 year old kid how to blind
a guy that fights him over the monkey bars sure seems a bit
harsh to me. I say it over and over again, I'm new to kenpo,
so fill me in on the knowledge I'm missing here .. but I'm not
sure that kenpo should be taught to young kids.

Once a "kid" has received his junior black belt, then gotten all
of his tabs, then he'll start coming to the adult class .. it does
take awhile to get there, so typically the kids are 16. They
test as adults at the next belt test, and if they pass, then they
receive a purple belt. Going from there, to black in 2 years
would be a hell of a task. You get to come to the adult class
regardless at 16, but those guys that have received their
Jr Black Belts have serious skills when they get there!

 

[GouRonin]

Ever since that damn chimpanzee got his black belt it's been nothing but hell in a handbasket.

 

[Jim M]

We tended to teach the kenpo techniques with modified targets to anyone (adults included) that we felt could not be trusted with the full technique. That begs the question of why these people (at least the adults) were being taught in the first place but I think that really boiled down to money and not wanting to remove a student and cause an issue when there were other ways to circumvent the problem. It also provided the student with the opportunity to mature or otherwise change their ways. Seems reasonable for children.

Jim

 

[Rob_Broad]

Lets try and look at the other side of the coin. How old is too old to get a Black Belt. One of the local instructors where I live was just in the newspaper for promoting 3 senior citizen ladies to Black Belt. They all have been with him for two years, one is 74, one 69, and the third 67. They all are studying Tae Kwon Do, yet none of them can't kick over their waist. They can't break boards, and they have their own special 45 minute class once a week. To me it seems like just another publicity stunt. Is there an age when someone shouldn't get their Black Belt.

What do you all think?

 

[vincefuess]

I am willing to cut a bit more slack for old timers getting their black belts, though it IS generally a publicity stunt. At least the old folk are on the completing end of life's journey, so giving them an honorary black belt isn't likely to screw them up the way it could a kid- y'know, thinking rewards in life come easy.

 

[Cthulhu]

This may make me look like a jerk, but what the heck...

I would like it better if the people in question were given honorary black belts. To me, a black belt can imply that one day, the person will pass the art on. A person who has just trained for a year or so is not going to be capable of passing the art on...especially if the person can't do many of the techniques.

Giving actual rank to the very young or very old is great for publicity and most certainly gives the people a great sense of accomplishment, but it trivializes what I have worked so hard for. And I just don't like that. An honorary black belt with some sort of certificate stating the belt is for outstanding achievement or something is just as good.

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
Lets try and look at the other side of the coin. How old is too old to get a Black Belt.

This is I think different from the idea of giving a black belt to those too young to understand and teach. It's more akin to giving a black belt to a physically handicapped person. I've never had to face the issue of giving a belt to someone clearly unable to perform the technique due to such limitations--I'm not sure what I'd do. I'd like to be inclusive but I'd also like people to be able to demonstrate and not merely explain the techniques. I suspect I would err on the side of granting a belt to someone who was doing their best and who understood the techniques. I don't find it an easy issue. Medical schools face similar issues all the time. Blind individuals have been graduated but people with other disabilities have not always been allowed to study. Should every medical school graduate be a potential surgeon?

 

[Nate_Hoopes]

Originally posted by vincefuess

I feel better about seeing junior BB's in TKD uniforms than Kenpo. The way most TKD schools teach, even the adults are junior black belts.

Now that isnt very nice vince... Funny but not nice.

 

[Sandor]

Originally posted by arnisador


This is I think different from the idea of giving a black belt to those too young to understand and teach. It's more akin to giving a black belt to a physically handicapped person. I've never had to face the issue of giving a belt to someone clearly unable to perform the technique due to such limitations--I'm not sure what I'd do. I'd like to be inclusive but I'd also like people to be able to demonstrate and not merely explain the techniques. I suspect I would err on the side of granting a belt to someone who was doing their best and who understood the techniques. I don't find it an easy issue. Medical schools face similar issues all the time. Blind individuals have been graduated but people with other disabilities have not always been allowed to study. Should every medical school graduate be a potential surgeon?

You bring up some very interesting points. If I may, I'll share my perspective on 'geriatric' dans. One of the instructors I have studied under promoted a student to black not so long ago. Not a big deal in the big picture until you stop to realize the student started as a white belt at 71. At 76 he earned his rank and is one heck of a black belt not to mention the inspirational factor of seeing a person so advanced in years acheive the rank. Old folks can hit, and hit hard. They need the material because they are potential victims of violent crime due to their age. I have no problem with the promotion at all. Like I said it is inspiring especially considering my father passed away at that age.

This is entirely a different issue than the Jr. black issue. A senior not only understands the implications of their rank (a child can't really fathom what shodan means when they are 6 yrs old). I also don't have a problem with physically disabled promotions to black. I know a parapalegic who you wouldn't want to mess with. The tenacity and drive to get the rank couppled with the specialized material they have to develop based upon their own limitations makes Kenpo ideal for them.

Bruce Lee, who was an inspiring athlete and martial artist often stated that he acheived his proficiency in the arts in spite of his own physical disability. Food for thought.

One other thing, you made a reference to doctors which is an analogy I often use in class. You have two students who graduate from med school, both are doctors. One is an A student, the other barely passes by some miraculous feat of mathematics. Still both are doctors and the question becomes; Which one do you want to perform surgurey on you?

 

[Robbo]

I think Sandor has stated the issue to a 'T'. If you want to put age restrictions on getting a black belt then you have to define what the criteria for getting said black belt is.

The point is you are a better person when you get your black than when you start classes.

I know, I know there is some technical proficiency involved here. But picture this, you practise for 30 years and due to some sort of illness you can't perform the way you used to. Should you be demoted then because you don't fit somebody's ideal of what a black belt should do or should you tailor your art to keep it's effectivness and yet allow you to actually do the techniques. That was one of Mr. Parker's great contributions. He said that the art should fit the person not the other way around.

This doesn't really apply to the under 18 situation, I believe in junior black belts and keeping them seperate until they are ready to bang with the adults (within reason of course, don't throw them to the 19 year old 1st degrees) Then move them up and start them learning the real stuff, by the time they are ready to grade again they will be 18 or over.

Our job as teachers is to inspire and instill confidence not kick the crap out of people just because they are not as talented as the next guy.

 

[shine]

This has been a great thread to watch unfold! :asian:

One of my favorite martial arts websites (Shotokan Planet) has some interesting comments on what the dan rankings mean in Japan:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/belts/rankhistory.html

My favorite comment:

"You can hold dan rank not only in the martial-arts, but also in calligraphy,
flower arrangement, and even baseball."

Of course a bb in kenpo has it's own meaning and that meaning comes mostly from the relationship between you and the person who decides you are to wear the rank and partly from the community in which you operate.

Cheers,

Shine, 10'th dan in joie de vivre :lol:

 

[Bob]

Originally posted by shine

My favorite comment:

["You can hold dan rank not only in the martial-arts, but also in calligraphy,
flower arrangement, and even baseball."]

I agree with this totally..........

First of all, I don't think this thread is out of line, but I do think it my be a little counter productive for the older generation who may want to train but may be a little insecure about their age and abilities. And on the otherside of the coin this thread may take away the feeling of pride that some of the older readers may feel from attaining their black belts.

I think there is much more to attaining a black belt then just being able to physically perform techniques. I feel that in order to attain a black belt, one must have heart. Having heart to go out there and train with all the young'ins every day shows a different form of physical strength. For example, to push yourself when you know that you have severe asthma and not allowing that to stop your drive to learn and excel, I think heart is a good substitute for the criteria of physical prowness......
I don't think that just because someone is older they should have it easier then me, but they should be allowed to show a different attribute to replace certain ones that time my have taken from them.
I have trained with many from the "older" crowd, and they taught me many lessons about heart and having them around displaying their love for the arts, helps me to strive harder and not take my attributes for granted....
and after awhile seeing them grow and adapt their training to who they are is where they prove the right to wear a black belt.....

I think this statement sums it all up
[Of course a black belt has it's own meaning and that meaning comes mostly from the relationship between you and the person who decides you are to wear the rank and partly from the community in which you operate.]

Just my 2 cents........
Thanks
Bob
p.s. Final note: don't teach to many of your tricks to the "older" generation, because they will come back to use it on you at a later date!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know, I am still regretting it to this day!!!!!!!!!!! Way to go GEO...........

 

[Rob_Broad]

Since I am the one who directed this into who old is too old for Black Belt. I must say that I am not against seniors getting a Black Belt, actually I am all for it. My problem is with the schools that use seniors getting Belts as a publicity stunt. Most of the time these people now have a false sense of secuirty because the program has mean modified so much so that they can get thru it. I have met several senior citizens that have earned a Black Belt, many deserve it, some do not. I feel bad for these people who have had the program so modified and then have smoke blown up their **** to think that they can actually defens themselves.

I hope more seniors train, do the best they can, earn their Black Belt even if the program has been modified to fit them. Just lets hope the instructor is giving them their rank for what they have accomplished not for another story in the newspaper.

 

[Sandor]

Originally posted by shine
..."You can hold dan rank not only in the martial-arts, but also in calligraphy,
flower arrangement, and even baseball."

...

Musashi wrote about how a true warrior mastered many ways. For three years Musashi sat locked away, no human contact save the visitations of his keepers who brought him food and Takuan who brought him a seemingly endless supply of books. Essentually a prison sentence, the result of a wise bargain between Takuan and the Emporer for Shienmen Takezo's crimes against the state. His adventure in life was really beginning when Takuan and the Emporer released him. An incredible education, natural skills and some incredible luck... He was bound to be a great man. I digress.

The reason I am rambling about Musashi is he made an incredible effort to understand and master the other arts, perhaps being one of Japan's first renaissance men in that context and became an accomplished caligrapher/artist/sculptor. I have often wondered if this was the way before his time or a result of it.

It doesn't surprise me that dans are awarded for mastery of other things.

Thanks for the link

Peace,
Sandor