Learning Another Art

[drop bear]

Redirecting certainly can be soft but in the video clip it was a physical pull on the leg breaking the balance, not a redirection of force.

And a fake is not a soft punch, it is what it is called, a fake.

So, not by my definition ... for either.
:asian:

I am not sure how you re direct without manipulation of their body. In less you are describing something like a fake which is a redirection without any sort of force used at all.

 

[K-man]

I am not sure how you re direct without manipulation of their body. In less you are describing something like a fake which is a redirection without any sort of force used at all.

the techniques are performed without tension and with minimum force.

David Brown is one of the top aikido guys in Australia ...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=De_kp7hPj84

You might have missed Mook's post earlier ...

Originally Posted by mook jong man

[video=youtube_share;KePHdXgpAdk]http://youtu.be/KePHdXgpAdk[/video]

[video=youtube_share;7j_lsIPgMcE]http://youtu.be/7j_lsIPgMcE[/video]

[video=youtube_share;0POu0pxzO28]http://youtu.be/0POu0pxzO28[/video]

All these videos demonstrate or discuss the soft part of martial art.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

the techniques are performed without tension and with minimum force.

David Brown is one of the top aikido guys in Australia ...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=De_kp7hPj84

You might have missed Mook's post earlier ...


All these videos demonstrate or discuss the soft part of martial art.
:asian:

I am more confused than before now. The wing chun videos show hard punching and there was physical pulling to break balance in the akido vid. It still looks like hard and soft concepts are being combined.

What have I missed?

 

[mook jong man]

I am more confused than before now. The wing chun videos show hard punching and there was physical pulling to break balance in the akido vid. It still looks like hard and soft concepts are being combined.

What have I missed?

What you have missed , is that it is all in the execution of the technique.
Wing Chun uses so called "soft force" when striking , but to the person on the receiving end it feels anything but soft.

If you were able to feel the man in the videos muscle groups when he is performing punching or any movement at all , they would feel like jelly , no tension in the muscles at all.

I have actually leant on his arm with my whole body weight , I'm like 45 degrees to the floor leaning on his raised arm and his Bong Sau is just holding me there , and his arms , shoulders , chest just stay relaxed.

So what you are seeing are physical movements but you can't see what is going on underneath at the muscular level.
Don't do Aikido , but I presume it's probably the same.

 

[MJS]

Not the best analogy when you consider that often physical skills are harder to get down than mental skills. Many beginners think they know how to perform a technique well until they actually try it.

Amen to that! I'd need 5 more arms to provide me with enough fingers, to count the number of times that I taught someone a tech, told them to practice it, came back a few min. later, asked to see it, they'd do it, and then ask for another, 'because they've got the first tech down' only to have them crumble once I put them under some pressure.

 

[wingchun100]

Amen to that! I'd need 5 more arms to provide me with enough fingers, to count the number of times that I taught someone a tech, told them to practice it, came back a few min. later, asked to see it, they'd do it, and then ask for another, 'because they've got the first tech down' only to have them crumble once I put them under some pressure.

Yes, putting something into muscle memory is a lot harder than just your mental memory.

 

[K-man]

What you have missed , is that it is all in the execution of the technique.
Wing Chun uses so called "soft force" when striking , but to the person on the receiving end it feels anything but soft.

If you were able to feel the man in the videos muscle groups when he is performing punching or any movement at all , they would feel like jelly , no tension in the muscles at all.

I have actually leant on his arm with my whole body weight , I'm like 45 degrees to the floor leaning on his raised arm and his Bong Sau is just holding me there , and his arms , shoulders , chest just stay relaxed.

So what you are seeing are physical movements but you can't see what is going on underneath at the muscular level.
Don't do Aikido , but I presume it's probably the same.

Exactly. Until you feel it for yourself you won't fully understand what we are talking about. When you do feel it you may well change the way you train.
:asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sometimes (well, a lot of times) people will post threads here on MT where they say they are studying one art that covers a certain range of combat (let's say kicking), and they want to know what style they could learn to handle other ranges (punching/trapping/grappling). More often than not, these people are poo pooed on here and told that it takes a long time to "master" the one they are already studying. (Some people go on to say you can never even master the first one...all you can do is keep refining it...but that's a whole other thread.)

However, a thought struck me the other day: as long as the style they picked for the other range complimented what they are currently studying, what would be the harm in that? For example, from what little knowledge I have, I can see how judo would be a better compliment to my wing chun training than aikido if I wanted to add a grappling range art to my curriculum. (However, I don't know what style that covers kicking range would fit well with it.)

At any rate, your thoughts?

I think that it depends on what you really want. People who want to "fill holes" usually have some end goal in mind of being ready for anything should the need to defend themselves arise. Other people simply want to do more of what they enjoy. I sing. I enjoy singing choral music, and the majority of my experience is in that type of music. I also enjoy singing rock and roll, blues, and sometimes even country. I don't have to ask if it's okay to sing other styles of music or to get style specific voice coaching. If I want to, I simply do so.

Martial arts suffers from a lot of what I consider to be mostly fortune cookie logic. "You never truly master anything" is a good example. It pours a meaning into the word that is rarely used outside of the martial arts, where mastery is generally used synonymously with proficiency and is considered to exist at different levels rather than being a level above. I differentiate the two words here because it causes two pages of asinine debate over what it means to master something as opposed to simply be proficient.

Another is the idea that if you depart from your one art to pursue something else because you're not getting what you want/need from it, then you're somehow shortchanging yourself. You may be, but that is hardly axiomatic. Part of the problem is that many of us have a lot of our ego wrapped up in the art(s) we practice. Which leads to the notion that 'my art prepares me for everything' mentality that I see and have probably at times participated in.

Generally, I feel that if you're trying to round out your skill set, it is good to find complimentary arts. But if you've been doing taekwondo and suddenly decide you want to be a Talhoffer sword wielding aikidoka who can kick like a mule (from all that taekwondo), then by all means, go and do so. The only person you need to satisfy is yourself, not a bunch of self important keyboard jockeys.

 

[wingchun100]

I think that it depends on what you really want. People who want to "fill holes" usually have some end goal in mind of being ready for anything should the need to defend themselves arise. Other people simply want to do more of what they enjoy. I sing. I enjoy singing choral music, and the majority of my experience is in that type of music. I also enjoy singing rock and roll, blues, and sometimes even country. I don't have to ask if it's okay to sing other styles of music or to get style specific voice coaching. If I want to, I simply do so.

Martial arts suffers from a lot of what I consider to be mostly fortune cookie logic. "You never truly master anything" is a good example. It pours a meaning into the word that is rarely used outside of the martial arts, where mastery is generally used synonymously with proficiency and is considered to exist at different levels rather than being a level above. I differentiate the two words here because it causes two pages of asinine debate over what it means to master something as opposed to simply be proficient.

Another is the idea that if you depart from your one art to pursue something else because you're not getting what you want/need from it, then you're somehow shortchanging yourself. You may be, but that is hardly axiomatic. Part of the problem is that many of us have a lot of our ego wrapped up in the art(s) we practice. Which leads to the notion that 'my art prepares me for everything' mentality that I see and have probably at times participated in.

Generally, I feel that if you're trying to round out your skill set, it is good to find complimentary arts. But if you've been doing taekwondo and suddenly decide you want to be a Talhoffer sword wielding aikidoka who can kick like a mule (from all that taekwondo), then by all means, go and do so. The only person you need to satisfy is yourself, not a bunch of self important keyboard jockeys.

Right. Well, I wasn't thinking of it so much in the terms of wanting to prove the keyboard jockeys wrong. I was thinking of it in regards to whether or not a martial artist could truly benefit from it, provided the arts compliment instead of contradict each other.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Right. Well, I wasn't thinking of it so much in the terms of wanting to prove the keyboard jockeys wrong. I was thinking of it in regards to whether or not a martial artist could truly benefit from it, provided the arts compliment instead of contradict each other.

I think it really depends on the person in question. I could theoretically benefit from a lot of things but I only have but so much time to study and train. BJJ may benefit me, but when am I going to go practice it?

For some, there may be no direct benefit other than personal enjoyment. Look at all the guys who say things like this: 'I study boxing, taekkyeon, aikido, karate, haedong gumdo and Talhoffer! I also dabble in ninjutsu and have a replica of Aragorn's sword, Narsil, on my wall! Right next to Connor MacLeod's katana!' Seems like a Frankenstein's monster of a course of study, but they love that they do what they do, even if there's questionable practical value and little sustainability once they have a job.

Generally, I feel that if arts compliment one another, you can really enhance your experience and achieve practical, usable results.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Sometimes (well, a lot of times) people will post threads here on MT where they say they are studying one art that covers a certain range of combat (let's say kicking), and they want to know what style they could learn to handle other ranges (punching/trapping/grappling). More often than not, these people are poo pooed on here and told that it takes a long time to "master" the one they are already studying. (Some people go on to say you can never even master the first one...all you can do is keep refining it...but that's a whole other thread.)

With regards to the bolded portion of your post I have to say I have not noticed this attitude on MT at all with regards to cross training. Most of the posters I've seen are in favor of cross training if a person perceives the style they practice to have any shortcomings, in fact. While it certainly is true that mastery is a life long endeavor I do not recall seeing anyone use that as a reason why someone else shouldn't broaden their martial arts horizons. YMMV, of course (and apparently it does ).

In my opinion many arts emphasize certain ranges but that doesn't mean they don't have strategies and tactics to deal with ranges they don't focus on. The problem is that often times students and/or instructors don't realize this and so training against less common attacks (for that style) is not done nearly enough. But that doesn't mean cross training should be avoided.

However, a thought struck me the other day: as long as the style they picked for the other range complimented what they are currently studying, what would be the harm in that? For example, from what little knowledge I have, I can see how judo would be a better compliment to my wing chun training than aikido if I wanted to add a grappling range art to my curriculum. (However, I don't know what style that covers kicking range would fit well with it.)

At any rate, your thoughts?

Someone already pointed out, I think, that the main problem with mixing styles is getting to the point where the bleed over is controlled. Different arts have different concepts underlying them which can, and sometimes do, conflict.

Pax,

Chris

 

[drop bear]

Exactly. Until you feel it for yourself you won't fully understand what we are talking about. When you do feel it you may well change the way you train.
:asian:

But we are both commenting on videos from what we can see not feel. I am not sure how you can tell soft principals are not being used.

 

[K-man]

But we are both commenting on videos from what we can see not feel. I am not sure how you can tell soft principals are not being used.

If you were familiar with the principles you would be able to see the softness. Lots of people talk about softness but I doubt most have come across it. In my early days I never got a glimpse of it and to be honest I wasn't even aware it existed so I wasn't looking for it. After I was introduced to it about eight years ago I reassessed my whole training. Not only that, I started looking more closely at different styles and different people. In the video of David Brown you could be forgiven for thinking his Uke was just receiving for him. At some stages he is, where he rolls out of the technique, but at 3:44 for instance there is an example where there is no effort but Uke cannot resist. How do I know it is real? David is my teacher's teacher and I have felt it first hand.

To save you having to go back to find it here is the clip again.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=De_kp7hPj84
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

If you were familiar with the principles you would be able to see the softness. Lots of people talk about softness but I doubt most have come across it. In my early days I never got a glimpse of it and to be honest I wasn't even aware it existed so I wasn't looking for it. After I was introduced to it about eight years ago I reassessed my whole training. Not only that, I started looking more closely at different styles and different people. In the video of David Brown you could be forgiven for thinking his Uke was just receiving for him. At some stages he is, where he rolls out of the technique, but at 3:44 for instance there is an example where there is no effort but Uke cannot resist. How do I know it is real? David is my teacher's teacher and I have felt it first hand.

To save you having to go back to find it here is the clip again.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=De_kp7hPj84
:asian:

Well let's put it this way.

A elderly akido master is doing a seminar for people who want to learn a specific way of doing things. It is doubtful anybody is going to start yelling " come at me bro"

And really go for the guy.

I have been the victim of some very delicate sweeps by good guys who know where my balance is. That is the essance of good grappling.
And I was yelling come at me bro and going for them.

 

[K-man]

Well let's put it this way.

A elderly akido master is doing a seminar for people who want to learn a specific way of doing things. It is doubtful anybody is going to start yelling " come at me bro"

And really go for the guy.

I have been the victim of some very delicate sweeps by good guys who know where my balance is. That is the essance of good grappling.
And I was yelling come at me bro and going for them.

Mate, David did just that. I'll leave you to explore what happened. Suffice to say a lot of high profile karate guys started training with him.
:asian: