How important is sparring in traditonal karate?

[Charlemagne]

Because you are familiar only with a specific model of training. That model of training, while effective for one type of martial art, isn't necessarily effective for other types of martial arts. It all boils down to the focus, goal and teaching methodology.

No, that isn't it. I've trained other supposed martial arts that never sparred, to include some of the ones mentioned above. And yes, sparring is effective for any kind of martial art. Pretending that sparring is not necessary in order to be able to pull off your techniques against someone who is trying to resist that is delusional.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And yet I've been doing it successfully for over 40 years. And against violent felons, both armed and unarmed for nearly 30 years. I don't spar, nor do I teach sparring. And my students, both high liability professionals and private citizens alike have successfully defended themselves against violent felons. Your assumption is not correct.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

@Charlemagne

What exactly are you disagreeing with?

 

[drop bear]

No, you're involving yourself in conversations across the board in which you have no knowledge. I suspect to up your post count which is why you have nearly 11K posts in just over three years on the board.



I do remember the conversation with Hanzou, because I was involved in the conversation. That's why I know it has nothing to do with this thread. And the post was made to emphasis a specific point in the other thread. A point that was understood by Hanzou, and others...but apparently went right over your head.

You should make reading comprehension a priority in you life. I would save you a lot of grief.

Um...You have suggested my posts are incoherent. But then come to the conclusion that I am the one who needs to make reading comprehension a priority.

You are not exactly Sherlock Holmes are you?

The conversations across the board are not private. Were never secret. and I was reading them when you were. I have exactly the same knowledge of these conversations that you do.

The point you were specifically making was to be cool. Saying that you have a gun,knife,bat so therefore your system is cooler than an unarmed system is a pretty tired old trick to be honest. And it bites you back because the obvious answer is if you need a gun,knife bat in an unarmed confrontation. (especially sparring) Your confidence in your unarmed really isnt very high.

Too deadly to spar but "Trust me I fought a dragon."is not generally considered a bonus in a martial art.

Please let me know if you are coping with understanding my posts. If not I will try to make them simpler and more straight forward.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Um...You have suggested my posts are incoherent. But then come to the conclusion that I am the one who needs to make reading comprehension a priority.

Reread the statement in the quote above. Yes, your posts are often incoherent gibberish. The above quote confirms it. Thank you.

The conversations across the board are not private. Were never secret.

I never stated they were.

I have exactly the same knowledge of these conversations that you do.

Apparently you don't. Everyone else knew precisely the point I was making. You obviously didn't. I mean...you REALLY don't have a clue. There is an old saying that one should be considered foolish and remain silent lest they open their mouth and confirm it. At any rate, had nothing to do with being cool or comparing systems or any other such nonsense. It was about differences in teaching methodologies. I've patiently tried to explain this to you multiple times, in multiple threads.

If you still don't understand, well it's probably because I'm using capital letters and punctuation in my sentence structure. Something that seems to cause you no end of trouble. Here's and example:

Were never secret. and I was reading them when you were.

Bye

 

[drop bear]

Reread the statement in the quote above. Yes, your posts are often incoherent gibberish. The above quote confirms it. Thank you.



I never stated they were.



Apparently you don't. Everyone else knew precisely the point I was making. You obviously didn't. I mean...you REALLY don't have a clue. There is an old saying that one should be considered foolish and remain silent lest they open their mouth and confirm it. At any rate, had nothing to do with being cool or comparing systems or any other such nonsense. It was about differences in teaching methodologies. I've patiently tried to explain this to you multiple times, in multiple threads.

If you still don't understand, well it's probably because I'm using capital letters and punctuation in my sentence structure. Something that seems to cause you no end of trouble. Here's and example:



Bye

If you associate with people who get punched in the head for a hobby. You are probably never going to get Shakespeare. I would be less hung up on punctuation and more concerned about practical training.

Everyone else did know what point you were making. And it was not the one you thought you were making.
(Damn that sentance has some nuance. You won't get that at all. And then blame me.)

Ok. Sparring is probably more important if you can't just shoot people. Because there are a lot of details in fighting that are not exposed from static drills.

This is drilled to us in class constantly. Our techniques dont just work. Its a fight. You have to apply fighting to fighting.

Sparring is a lot easier to see the issues and work them out and refine your system before you have to rely on them. The idea that anyone should just take an instructors word that the technique works without testing it for themselves is really inadvisable.

What this amounts to is you just saying. "My method works because I fought a thousand guys." Just doesn't count. That is not a teaching methodology that is a war story.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If you associate with people who get punched in the head for a hobby.

That isn't a complete sentence. This is what I'm talking about with how you post. I read some of your posts and shake my head. It's just hard to take you seriously.

I would be less hung up on punctuation and more concerned about practical training.

I can do both. I've been training and teaching longer than you've been alive I'd wager.

Everyone else did know what point you were making.

And you still don't. You're proving my point for me...thanks.

Because there are a lot of details in fighting that are not exposed from static drills.

Never mentioned static drills. We've been talking about bunkai. Apparently you're unfamiliar with that as well?

The idea that anyone should just take an instructors word that the technique works without testing it for themselves is really inadvisable.

Okay...so? Anyone mention in this thread that students should just take the word of their instructor without testing their skill set? More rambling on your part?

What this amounts to is you just saying. "My method works because I fought a thousand guys." Just doesn't count.

Ah, so documented real world experience against violent resisting felons doesn't count? Got it. Keeping a data base of students taught, both high liability professionals as well as private citizens that have successfully used the training doesn't count? Got it.

Posting YT videos by the truck load in threads you have no personal knowledge in does count in your world? Got it.

 

[drop bear]

Ah, so documented real world experience against violent resisting felons doesn't count? Got it. Keeping a data base of students taught, both high liability professionals as well as private citizens that have successfully used the training doesn't count? Got it.

Posting YT videos by the truck load in threads you have no personal knowledge in does count in your world? Got it.

The documents nobody have ever seen. For the fighting success nobody has ever verified. That are unable to be repeated in sparring. That are unable to be shown in any format youtube or otherwise.

Hm................

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The documents nobody have ever seen.

Actually this is incorrect. There are folks here that know me personally that have either witnessed me in a use-of-force and/or seen the documentation. More folks on my own martial arts board and emergency preparedness board know me personally and a few either work with me right now or have worked with me in the past. This includes my instructor and several of my previous partners that I owned a school with. You want to talk with them, join the MA board and talk with them all you like. Additionally, I'll extend the same invitation to you as I did with Hanzou, come to town and I'll personally drive you downtown to review my personnel file. Like I told him, pack a lunch because it's thick. Additionally, I'll show you the database we keep on students that have used our training in real world situations on everything from date rape to taking down inmates to making arrests to stopping muggings.

That are unable to be repeated in sparring.

More interested in repeating them in real life, against real violent felons than in an artificial environment.

That are unable to be shown in any format youtube or otherwise.

Never been on 'Cops' and really have no need to demonstrate my skill set for the viewing audience. My goal is to go home safe and teach others to do the same. If you'd like to believe I don't have that kind of experience then assume I'm just an awkward teenager with too much internet time on my hands that makes stuff up as I go. After all, I kinda have that impression of you sometimes.

 

[Paul_D]

What this amounts to is you just saying. "My method works because I fought a thousand guys." Just doesn't count.

It doesn't count that someone knows it works because they've used it for real?

 

[drop bear]

It doesn't count that someone knows it works because they've used it for real?

Did i mention I fought a dragon once?

 

[Buka]

I don't train Traditional Karate, so I probably shouldn't even comment. But I do train Karate, so what the hell.

Some years ago, maybe three or four, I was discussing this very issue here on our forum with Chris Parker. He presented some points I had to take a long look at. Been thinking about them ever since.

I realized a few things.
I've trained a lot of people in a variety of things. Taught a lot of DT in law enforcement. The majority of the officers I taught, never sparred to my knowledge. Some did, but most didn't. But many of them had ample opportunities to apply certain things they learned in dangerous circumstances on the street, with resisting, dangerous and violent people. (Successfully.) As the years go by you discuss some of these incidents with lots of these guys and gals. So far so good. But, again, these folks, most of them, never sparred.

I've also trained a couple handfuls of people over the years who put in a lot of hours on the dojo floor, but who weren't into "the sparring thing"(as one of them put it) some of them already knew how to fight, had been doing so since they were young, due to where and how they grew up. And I knew this to be accurate. They were training for the fun of it, or to get into shape, or just because. They didn't care squat about belts, or about sparring.

I've also trained a some folks who did a good deal of sparring, and did okay at it. Stayed a few years to intermediate belt level and trained really hard. But I don't know if they'd actually be able to apply the skills they learned in real world danger situation.

So.....now, some years later....I dunno'. Still thinking about it.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I realized a few things.
I've trained a lot of people in a variety of things. Taught a lot of DT in law enforcement. The majority of the officers I taught, never sparred to my knowledge. Some did, but most didn't. But many of them had ample opportunities to apply certain things they learned in dangerous circumstances on the street, with resisting, dangerous and violent people. (Successfully.)

This is a good example. Most in LEO, Corrections, Executive Protection and other such professions don't take training beyond the academy and in-service yet they still, by-and-large get the job done. No, they aren't Bruce Lee. But they normally get the job done with the little they know, without sparring and normally just practicing repetition by rote.

WWII combatives is another example. No sparring. Stupid simple. Very little training initially. Yet it was gross motor skills that were retained in long term memory and flat out brutal and effective.

So it goes back to the OP, sparring is not important (or necessary) in a traditional Karate system if the focus is SD related.

 

[Buka]

This is a good example. Most in LEO, Corrections, Executive Protection and other such professions don't take training beyond the academy and in-service yet they still, by-and-large get the job done. No, they aren't Bruce Lee. But they normally get the job done with the little they know, without sparring and normally just practicing repetition by rote.

WWII combatives is another example. No sparring. Stupid simple. Very little training initially. Yet it was gross motor skills that were retained in long term memory and flat out brutal and effective.

So it goes back to the OP, sparring is not important (or necessary) in a traditional Karate system if the focus is SD related.

Sparring was a big part of what we did, certainly not the only part, but definitely the most enjoyable. Sparring sessions were always the most crowded of nights/days, there was an electric atmosphere every time, people rooting for others, fist pumping and cheers when someone landed a beautiful kick, combo, sweep of what-have-you. It was jut flat out crazy fun. But I ponder if it was necessary for the development of our students. I like to think it, was, but that's more than likely a selfish way of how I look at it.

In police work, beside the times when we happen upon a crime or an incident, for the most part we are called and sent. We don't really have the option of not dealing with problems, avoiding them and going about our day. Constant repetition of these cases builds our skills in the various ways we have of dealing with them. Now, a private citizen, often times has the option of avoidance. He can get outta' Dodge, or avoid it all together if he's lucky - and that's a beautiful thing. Most times he'll never be forced into testing certain skills he might have that deal with conflict. Also, in our case, we have right on our side, we have the law on our side. (let's hope so, anyway) I believe that gives us a mental edge in all conflict. An edge the regular guy doesn't have.

So......I still wonder if all the sparring we did, constantly, the sparring I taught......I wonder how necessary it really was. I think it was more important for some students than others. Maybe for the more introverted ones, maybe the less athletic ones, maybe for the ones that never had physical altercations, maybe for the ones who were bullied more than the rest of us. Maybe it gave them the opportunity to experience a mild form of violence, and how to deal with it, in a safe and supported way. Maybe it taught them that they can survive taking a couple of good shots, maybe it taught them how to get jammed, or knocked of base, and how to reset, regroup, re-whatever, in a fast paced pressure environment. And maybe not.

Hell, I don't know. I think I'm driving myself crazy with this.

 

[drop bear]

This is a good example. Most in LEO, Corrections, Executive Protection and other such professions don't take training beyond the academy and in-service yet they still, by-and-large get the job done. No, they aren't Bruce Lee. But they normally get the job done with the little they know, without sparring and normally just practicing repetition by rote.

WWII combatives is another example. No sparring. Stupid simple. Very little training initially. Yet it was gross motor skills that were retained in long term memory and flat out brutal and effective.

So it goes back to the OP, sparring is not important (or necessary) in a traditional Karate system if the focus is SD related.

If you have a gun, bat and knife. If you have numbers support and the authority of the law. Then you may not need to spend all that much time learning to fight. Or need a system that works very well.

We have a saying in the professional violence world.

"Give me 4 committed gumbies and we will stop a trained guy"

 

[drop bear]

I don't train Traditional Karate, so I probably shouldn't even comment. But I do train Karate, so what the hell.

Some years ago, maybe three or four, I was discussing this very issue here on our forum with Chris Parker. He presented some points I had to take a long look at. Been thinking about them ever since.

I realized a few things.
I've trained a lot of people in a variety of things. Taught a lot of DT in law enforcement. The majority of the officers I taught, never sparred to my knowledge. Some did, but most didn't. But many of them had ample opportunities to apply certain things they learned in dangerous circumstances on the street, with resisting, dangerous and violent people. (Successfully.) As the years go by you discuss some of these incidents with lots of these guys and gals. So far so good. But, again, these folks, most of them, never sparred.

I've also trained a couple handfuls of people over the years who put in a lot of hours on the dojo floor, but who weren't into "the sparring thing"(as one of them put it) some of them already knew how to fight, had been doing so since they were young, due to where and how they grew up. And I knew this to be accurate. They were training for the fun of it, or to get into shape, or just because. They didn't care squat about belts, or about sparring.

I've also trained a some folks who did a good deal of sparring, and did okay at it. Stayed a few years to intermediate belt level and trained really hard. But I don't know if they'd actually be able to apply the skills they learned in real world danger situation.

So.....now, some years later....I dunno'. Still thinking about it.

I trained guys to fight successfully real world by saying "Grab his bloody arm don't let go"

If they could do that then we could generally win fights. Because it is really hard to fight a guy with another guy hanging off them.

But that was the result of poor industry training that required me to make massive short cuts.

I spent the time and effort learning to handle people because I needed that edge.

 

[Ironbear24]

I am a recent black belt in Karate (I only got it a year ago) and I have never sparred.

I am shocked. Sparring is a very crucial part of learning any combative martial art. How can you be sure you are capable of doing anything if it is never put to the test?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I am shocked. Sparring is a very crucial part of learning any combative martial art. How can you be sure you are capable of doing anything if it is never put to the test?

But it really isn't a crucial part. It is one method used primarily within the scope of one teaching methodology. But as I've stated, it isn't the most effective nor is it a necessity. One can test their skill set using bunkai without sparring and have very effective results. Been doing it for decades, as stated previously.

 

[Ironbear24]

But it really isn't a crucial part. It is one method used primarily within the scope of one teaching methodology. But as I've stated, it isn't the most effective nor is it a necessity. One can test their skill set using bunkai without sparring and have very effective results. Been doing it for decades, as stated previously.

But bunkai is scripted.

 

[Flying Crane]

But bunkai is scripted.

And yet...it works...