New to Karate

[AMP-RYU]

Sticky hands is practiced much more (and likely on a more sophisticated level) within wing chun than goju-ryu karate. I always enjoyed kakie practice in the dojo, and now that I am a teacher I expose even my kyu rank students to it. An understanding of kakie is required before you can really hope to move onto the locking applications within karate.

I teach youn wha style and we work on sticky hands quite often. It is good for hand eye cordination.

 

[redantstyle]

i trained a few classes in Goju years ago. i do remember it had what seemed like quite a bit of 'kung fu' in it, compared to other karate i had some exposure, specifically shotokan and isshinryu.

the Goju did have this slick little backfist to the groin with a knuckle sticking out, like a cma pheonix.


regards.

 

[Hagakure]

AMP RYU,

Totally mate, sticky hands is great for hand-eye control/co-ordination. I'm getting a better idea of what to expect on an individual basis of both of these arts. What they'll be like combined, I can only imagine.

I saw a YT vid last night of full contact Shotokan competitions. Damn! Is all I can say.

Looking forward to combining it with jujutsu and serious training.

I've started doing weights again, and run a couple of times a week. Even started being sensible with the ol' diet. Not that I was crazy before, but it's all good. I "used" to do all of that, but have fallen back on a variety of excuses, some reasonable, others, less so over the last 18 months or so.

Roll on payday/training day!

 

[dancingalone]

Kakie? Is that the equivalent of sticky hands within Goju Ryu? Sticky hands is a fantastic exercise/application I'd recommend if for all.

I'm guessing the punching style within Wing Chun is going to be completely different to Karate. Will need to get used to that. :S

You've got it. One of the best ways to tell if you're in a sport Goju school or not is how frequent kakie drills are practiced. If they occur seldomly or never, you just might be in a sport karate dojo.

Goju-ryu uses the rollover horizonal fist with the two top knuckles for striking. Wing chun seems to favor the vertical fist and frequently the bottom two knuckles are the striking surfaces.

 

[dancingalone]

i think okinawan goju made fairly frequent use of the vertical fist, so it may not be that different.
jf

The vertical fist is not unknown in Okinawan goju, but it's much more a hallmark of isshin-ryu karate. The more conventional horizontal fist is much more common in kihon practice.

 

[Hagakure]

You've got it. One of the best ways to tell if you're in a sport Goju school or not is how frequent kakie drills are practiced. If they occur seldomly or never, you just might be in a sport karate dojo.

Goju-ryu uses the rollover horizonal fist with the two top knuckles for striking. Wing chun seems to favor the vertical fist and frequently the bottom two knuckles are the striking surfaces.

This is quite correct, and something I've become very used to. Ah well, I heard someone once say "a punch is just a punch".

The class as far as I'm aware seems to cover all the bases, SD, kata, sparring, physical enhancement etc, but I don't yet know about the kakie content. Guess I'll find out in due course though.

 

[hungfistron]

See, there's part of what I'm not getting. I've heard some say that Japanese Karate is more sport orientated, and less self defence orientated. Now. I'm not saying this is true, I've already confessed to being a novice, if it isn't the case, what are the main differences? Forgive me, I'm asking you to explain something that may well only be possible through experience.

Originally Karate or Karatedo was not sport related. Earlier there was a timeline made in this forum that points this out.


If you didn't see this time line here it is...
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64998


And also here is the orgin of Karate from both the official Shotokan and the Shotokai websites. Its best for you to hear this from them, that way you will be clear on this.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Courier New]1949 Isao Obata establishes the Nihon Karate Kyokai, as a means to help Master Funakoshi in the development of Karate-do. Even though initially the idea was that the association should include all groups, this did not occur. Neither did all of Gichin Funakoshi's students become part of it, for example Shigeru Egami and Genshin Hironishi[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Courier New]By the end of the 40's and the beginning of the 50's strong friction arises within the NKK due to the commercialization (fighting sporting events) of Karate-do.


The great masters cut links with the NKK, that finally ends up in the hands of the Takushoku University.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Courier New]In 1951 Shotokai reunites, and the association formalizes its existence as an association in 1956. Founders: Gichin Funakoshi, Shigeru Egami and Genshin Hironishi. Objective: to preserve the true Karate-do, without considering it a sport.[/FONT]



The Tadukai group thought the best way for an art like karate to gain international acceptance was to give it a sporting aspect Turning karate into a sport with rules for competition was not new since 1936 college clubs had been conducting kokaneiko (exchange of courtesis and practices), in which the tested their techniques against each other on a free-style basis. Without formal rules or supervision, however, these exchanges and training sessions were , more often then not, bloodbaths. The Old Boys refused to acknowlege the existence of such shenanigans because these bouts were obviously opposed to the principles of karate as Funakoshi taught them.


Nevertheless, the JKA directors and leaders in other styles brought free-sparring into the open, experimenting with it, debating it, and, finally encouraging it.


By 1950 virtually all major styles of karate in Japan were practicing some form of free sparring. The JKA contest rules, comprising three chapters and 16 articles, were completed in Aug. 1956. Collegiate clubs and branch dojo immediately commenced staging tournaments to try contestant skills and to train judges.


On April 26th, 1957 Master Gichin Funakoshi died at 89 years of age. At that day the final rupture occured. The Japanese Karate Association announced that it would not assist to the funerals if they were not the ones in charge of organizing it. A general meeting was convoked to analyze the probel, and try to find a solution.


The Kyokai announcement surprised everybody in a negative way. Their attitude was totally unexpected and even more so if we consider the words of Giei, the deceased's primogenite, who repeated the following:


" The burial of my father will be in charge of the Shotokai School, this because my father did not have other duties other than the director of the Shotokan Dojo and the Shotokai school. Now that his Dojo has disappeared in a fire, the logical thing is that his burial be in charge of the school."


At that moment the Kyokai included the main universities that had a long history of activities within Karate, such as Heio, Takushoku & Hosei while other universities within karate, such as Keio, Takushoku & Hosei while other universities such as Chuo, Noko, Seijo, Gakushin & Senshu were faithful to the Shotokai school and were totally in favor of its organization of the funeral.


In the case of Waseda it maintained itself in an intermediate plane, this was due to the fact that the sports coordination department director, Mr. Ohama, was in charge of coorinating the funeral due to the strong friendship that bound him to Master Funakoshi and therefore the group could not ignore the mission given to their director and on the other hand they backed up the reconsideration posed by the Kyokai. Therefore they were present at the meeting but barely commented on the subject.


Within this complex atmosphere full of tension the meeting began with approximated fifty karateka. The Kyokai right from the beginning maintained an inflexible attitude: " If the funerals are not in charge of the Kyokai, it will not assist..."


The Takushoku, Hosei and Keio representatives left the meeting taking their club flags that have been left at funerals. They said they needed them for some university ceremonies the next day. After many hours of discussion a conclusion was reached, the assistance to the funerals would be a personal decision. The only reason that the Kyokai gave was also the highest technical advisor of the Kyokai.


After that what was bound to happen happened, the separation of the two tendencies that for some time already had developed within the Master's group and that with his death become a reality.


Shigeru Egami & Genshin Hironishi would share the responsibility of directing Shotokai .


The same year that Masters Funakoshi dies the first Japanese Karate championship takes place.

This flurry of activity finally culminated in the 1st all Japan karate-do Championship Tournament in June 1957.


----www.shotokai.com
----www.rishotokankaratedo.com

That being shown, most people associate Karate with sport now adays, because of what the majority of what the art has become. But that doesn't mean that its the way it began, or how Funakoshi believed it should be.

Anyways good luck with your training!

 

[Aefibird]

Having trained in the past in a Shotokan/Goju hybrid and also in Wing Chun, the Goju elements of your new school will fit nicely with previous Wing Chun training. The Shotokan elements may take more getting used to, but the combination of the close in nature of Goju and the power and striking range of Shotokan make a great combo IMO and give you another tool in the arsenal. It should also fit in nicely with the Ju Jitsu that you are training in.

Good luck with the training! Hope you enjoy your first Karate class.

 

[searcher]

hungfistron- the problem with the other thread you referred to is that it does not give credit to the Okinawan masters that were training and teaching karate. Though Shotokan is a fine style, it is not "original" karate. Shotokan is the altered version that Funakoshi used to teach PE classes to Japanese school kids.

 

[hungfistron]

hungfistron- the problem with the other thread you referred to is that it does not give credit to the Okinawan masters that were training and teaching karate. Though Shotokan is a fine style, it is not "original" karate. Shotokan is the altered version that Funakoshi used to teach PE classes to Japanese school kids.

Sorry I didn't see this post earlier I would have responded sooner.

Just wanted to clear up a few things that where mentioned in your post Searcher. The timeline that was created was for The History of Karatedo, there was never any mentioning of it being the original style, or form of Karate. If it were not for Funakoshi learning from the great masters of Okinawan karate (Master Azato, Master Yasutsune), Karatedo would have not have came to be. Also I did respond to your statement on the timeline of Karatedo, you are welcome to help with the timeline, as well as anyone else.


As far as Shotokan being an altered version that Funakoshi used to teach PE classes to Japanese school kids... I believe you are refering to the Stalwart Youth System. This is a very important fabric of Japanese culture during those times, and is now. It teaches kids etiquette through Confucianism. Compassion, through Daoism respect for yourself and those around you. Various skills or proffessions, such as architecture, business, science, etc.

What Funakoshi, who was a proffessor taught in the school was spirituallity through Karatedo. And the physical application of the study.


The Japanese kids that you refer to where adults, college students.


Judo founder Jigoro Kano was so impressed with Gichin Funakoshi's karate that he asked for, and received, private karate lessons from Funakoshi for several months. Taking up residence at a dormitory for Okinawan students at Keio University, Funakoshi began teaching karate in the dorm's lecture hall.



Funakoshi became a subject of some controversy only a few years after relocating to Tokyo. For centuries, karate had been written two different ways in Japanese. One way used the characters for "Chinese hands," and the other used the characters for "empty hands." Although both were pronounced "karate," they were written differently. Funakoshi agreed with the obvious historical allusion in the "Chinese hands" characters, but he felt that the use of "empty hands" not only emphasized the art of self-defense without weapons, but also characterized the sense of emptying one's heart and mind of earthly desires and vanity.



Some of these "kids" as you put it could have developed formidable practioners of Shotokan Karatedo. Sadly many of them would die in the great earthquake that occured in 1923.


Now after the great quake....

In 1923, a massive earthquake shook Japan, and Tokyo was razed in the ensuing fire. Although the dormitory Funakoshi called home and still taught out of was spared, many of his students died or disappeared. For a short time he suspended his instruction and spent the next several months assisting in the massive cleanup.

Funakoshi's next major task was the creation of an all-new dojo (training hall). Because he had a difficult time raising funds, the building was not started until 1935. A year later, the world's first freestanding karate dojo was completed. Funakoshi named the school "shotokan" (the house of Shoto) after the pen name he used when writing poetry. When he stepped through the doors for the first time, he was almost 70 years old.

As he became increasingly busy with his dojo, Funakoshi began handing over his teaching assignments at the various universities to his students. He still conducted demonstrations, however, including regular performances before Emperor Hirohito, who invited him to the Imperial Palace on an annual basis.


So my question to you would be are you talking about the college students, who were not kids that he taught before the earthquake, or the college students, who were not kids that where taught by him after the earthquake? In any case your statement was very disrepectful on several different levels.

Then again maybe you had no idea, so since we are all entitled to our own views here, lets do our best at just being polite.



References...
Stalwart Youth System - Zen and Japanese Culture & The book of the 5 Rings

http://www.fightingmaster.com
http://www.shotokankarate.ca

 

[chinto]

Hi all,

I've studied a variety of MA in the past, Wing Chun, Ju jutsu, but never Karate. There's a class not too far from me, the Sensai seems to be a nice guy, helpful, informative, the classes seem to contain a mix of kata, sparring and then a combination of them in a self defence capacity. With all MA, I'm interested in their traditions and the little gems that one can use to get out of a scrape, or better yet, avoiding getting into one in the first place.

I'm informed that the style blends both Shotokan and Goju-Ryu. I've tried doing a little research on them, but sometimes the material seems.... contradictory? So, could anyone kindly enlighten me as to their orgins, what to expect, are they hard/soft as I might recognise from CMA, Okinwan or Japanese, or does that even matter?

I've decided to cross train in ju jutsu also, as my old Wing Chun class is too far away for me now that I've moved. Onwards and upwards, a new MA to learn, the start of a new adventure.

Cheers,


H

OK shotokan came about when Gojin funikoshi took the training in Okinawan shuri-te/ shorin ryu he got from master Anku Itosu and modified it to fit the japanese sensibilitys better. he deepend the stances and widened them, and made it a lot more liner.

Goju ryu came from Kanryo Higonna who took the Okinawan te systems of naha and mixed them with some chinese systems he studied for about 20 years in china ( believed to be the systems of RYU RYO KO RU RU and provably RU RU KO .. all systems from Fuchou china. the name goju ryu came from chogin Miyagi who was the one who took over shorei ryu ( Higonna's system) on his death, and when asked in the 1930's what its name was said " goju" meaning hard/soft.

but the systems both have Chinese and Okinawan influince on them with Japanese added to the shotokan.

 

[searcher]

Kanryo got some of his training from Seisho Aragaki and they both called their style Shorei-ryu(which is a dead style now). You can see the original techniques in several styles, including Goju-ryu, Isshinryu, Chito-ryu, Shotokan, Wado-ryu, and Shito-ryu, just to name a few.


Just thoguht I would add this to the discussion.