How important is sparring in traditonal karate?

[BradderzH]

At My Tang Soo Do studio, we will have free sparring, 1-3 step, and then a combination of both. It is usually beneficial, and quite fun. Then you get someone who likes takedowns and it turns into a "who can throw who first" game. Still a lot of fun.

What do you mean by "stage 1-3"? At a guess it is a measure of intensity but i just wanted to check

 

[Tez3]

What do you mean by "stage 1-3"? At a guess it is a measure of intensity but i just wanted to check

No it's not intensity, it's the amount of steps taken forward by the 'attacker' and backwards by the 'defender' before the attacking technique is performed hence one and three step sparring. This is the TKD version, we've done similar but where you can do whatever techniques you want.
Three Step Sparring

 

[Martial_Kumite]

What do you mean by "stage 1-3"? At a guess it is a measure of intensity but i just wanted to check

No it's not intensity, it's the amount of steps taken forward by the 'attacker' and backwards by the 'defender' before the attacking technique is performed hence one and three step sparring. This is the TKD version, we've done similar but where you can do whatever techniques you want.
Three Step Sparring

@Tez3 Has it right. It is just the # of steps we can take before we switch attackers. Sometimes we will use weapons, but we haven't done that in a while.

 

[JR 137]

@Tez3 Has it right. It is just the # of steps we can take before we switch attackers. Sometimes we will use weapons, but we haven't done that in a while.

Or it could mean the number of different attacks/techniques the attacker uses before the defender delivers his/her "killing blow" ie attacker does jab, cross, roundhouse kick, defender avoids all three then counters, or the defender counters the first two then uses a big finish after the 3rd attack.

 

[JR 137]

As has been said, sparring is a very vague term when truly analyzed. I think it's safe to say the OP is referring to free sparring, where there's no predetermined attacks.

IMO in very rare instances can a teacher and student get away with no free-sparring. The only way I can see an effective karateka without any free-sparring is what I saw in the video Tee: The Spirit of Okinawan Karate. There was a teacher who had his students doing drills that were a punch was thrown and the defender had to receive correctly and counter. If the student didn't receive correctly, he was getting punched in the face pretty hard.

Hard to put into words...

The part where the British guy wasn't receiving correctly and the teacher wasn't happy.

Edit: if you're a karate person, especially Okinawan karate, it's a must watch imo.

 

[Paul_D]

How important is sparring in terms of traditional karate and self defence?

You seem to be confusing sparring and consensual figting with self defence. I think that is where your problem lies. Sparring is useful for consensual fighting (either legally in the ring, or illegally in the street). Katas are degined for self defence, to be used pre-emptviely to attack, so the enemy never gets a go, like he would when you agree to spar/fight.

The problems with "street fighting" | Iain Abernethy

We know what is coming.

You do but the enemy (on the street) doesn't.

“The techniques of kata have their limits and were never intended to be used against an opponent in an arena or on a battlefield. They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behaviour.” – Choki Motobu

Sparring means you work an idea against a resisting opponent.

Sparring means you have allowed the enemy the option of resisting.

 

[JR 137]

Sparring means you have allowed the enemy the option of resisting.

There are no enemies in sparring. Sparring is done with partners, not opponents nor enemies. Fighting, self defense, competing, et al are done against enemies and/or opponents.

 

[Paul_D]

There are no enemies in sparring. Sparring is done with partners, not opponents nor enemies. Fighting, self defense, competing, et al are done against enemies and/or opponents.

If you sparred on the street it would mean you had afforded your enemy the luxury of resisting.

Better?

 

[Headhunter]

Well personally I don't think it's necessary I competed in boxing, kickboxing, mma and point fighting over a 15 year period and during that time I sparred around 3 times and I won more fights than I lost so its not an absolute nesecisity

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You seem to be confusing sparring and consensual figting with self defence. I think that is where your problem lies. Sparring is useful for consensual fighting (either legally in the ring, or illegally in the street). Katas are degined for self defence, to be used pre-emptviely to attack, so the enemy never gets a go, like he would when you agree to spar/fight.

The problems with "street fighting" | Iain Abernethy


You do but the enemy (on the street) doesn't.

“The techniques of kata have their limits and were never intended to be used against an opponent in an arena or on a battlefield. They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behaviour.” – Choki Motobu


Sparring means you have allowed the enemy the option of resisting.

A criminal assailant (mugger, rapist, whatever) has the luxury of only choosing to attack when he perceives the defender is unaware and unprepared and thus overpowering the victim without resistance. In fact, this is a primary tactic for predators.

Someone defending against said criminal attacker will very likely not have this luxury.

Yes, an ideal outcome might be for the target to perceive the threat before an actual attack is launched and initiate his/her own pre-emptive attack to overwhelm the enemy before he realizes the fight has started or that his target is ready to defend him/herself. Unfortunately we don't live in a world where everything goes ideally.

Perhaps the assailant is the one who succeeds in landing a surprise attack. In this case the defender (if not unconscious or bleeding out) is now hurt, disoriented, off-balance, with a compromised position and structure, while having to deal with continued incoming attacks. In this case, the defender better know how to fight*.

Perhaps the defender sees the threat coming in time to avoid being sucker punched, but fails to launch a pre-emptive attack until the assault is already under way and the attacker is not incompetent at fighting. In this case, the defender better know how to fight*.

Perhaps the defender does see the threat coming and does launch a pre-emptive attack - but the assailant is tough enough and skilled enough that he is not immediately finished off or intimidated into retreat. In this case, the defender better know how to fight*.

Perhaps the defender does see the threat coming and does launch a pre-emptive attack and does drop the attacker where he stands - but the attacker has a buddy who decides to continue the assault and now won't be taken by surprise. In this case the defender better know how to fight.*

*(Or run, but retreat isn't always possible for a number of reasons.)

I'm all in favor of training to be prepared to finish an encounter quickly with a pre-emptive attack. I'm not in favor of presuming that this tactic will always work and be all that you ever need.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If you sparred on the street it would mean you had afforded your enemy the luxury of resisting.

Better?

Sparring on the street against an actual attacker would make as much sense as doing kata on the street against an actual attacker or hitting a heavy bag on the street against an actual attacker or doing push ups on the street against an actual attacker. Those are all training exercises to develop certain skills and attributes. Training is what you do before the actual situation, not during.

 

[drop bear]

You seem to be confusing sparring and consensual figting with self defence. I think that is where your problem lies. Sparring is useful for consensual fighting (either legally in the ring, or illegally in the street). Katas are degined for self defence, to be used pre-emptviely to attack, so the enemy never gets a go, like he would when you agree to spar/fight.

I think you are confusing kata and fantasy with self defence.

It would be nice if he never gets a go. But you know what? Lets plan for the ide that he does.

 

[JR 137]

If you sparred on the street it would mean you had afforded your enemy the luxury of resisting.

Better?

I honestly have no idea what you're saying nor getting at. Sparring is training. Training to fight, defend yourself (depending on the parameters), compete, etc.

I think there's some sarcasm in your post, being the SD vs fighting vs competing police, but I'm at a loss here.

 

[Psilent Knight]

@BradderzH , another forum poster said to me recently that posts that are made on these forums are actually the opinions of the posters, so my advice is to take each individual feedback with a grain of salt. As for me; for various reasons I find myself more in agreement with @Paul_D

My two cents for what it's worth.

Take Care and Good Luck On Your Martial Arts Journey,
OSU!

 

[Paul_D]

I honestly have no idea what you're saying nor getting at. Sparring is training. Training to fight, defend yourself (depending on the parameters), compete, etc.

I think there's some sarcasm in your post, being the SD vs fighting vs competing police, but I'm at a loss here.

What I am saying is that sparring gives the opponent the opportunity to resist/fight back. Self defence, when done properly, doesn't. Once you have reached the point where a physical solution is the only remaining outcome, you should attack pre-emptively with a constant one way stream of violence until the threat is neutralised/you have created the opportunity to escape.

You said sparring was for testing your techniques against resistance. I am saying that if done correctly, my self defence will not give you to opportunity to resist. So sparring is a more a fighting skill than a self defence skill.

Confusing fighting with self defence means people assume the skills/training needed to be successful at fighting (sparring being one of them) are the same skills/training methods needed to be successful at self defence.

 

[Paul_D]

I think you are confusing kata and fantasy with self defence.

It would be nice if he never gets a go. But you know what? Lets plan for the ide that he does.

No one is saying things never go wrong, and he doesn't get a go. But as usual, you are being deliberately obtuse.

 

[Paul_D]

A criminal assailant (mugger, rapist, whatever) has the luxury of only choosing to attack when he perceives the defender is unaware and unprepared and thus overpowering the victim without resistance. In fact, this is a primary tactic for predators.

Someone defending against said criminal attacker will very likely not have this luxury.

Yes, an ideal outcome might be for the target to perceive the threat before an actual attack is launched and initiate his/her own pre-emptive attack to overwhelm the enemy before he realizes the fight has started or that his target is ready to defend him/herself. Unfortunately we don't live in a world where everything goes ideally.

Perhaps the assailant is the one who succeeds in landing a surprise attack. In this case the defender (if not unconscious or bleeding out) is now hurt, disoriented, off-balance, with a compromised position and structure, while having to deal with continued incoming attacks. In this case, the defender better know how to fight*.

Perhaps the defender sees the threat coming in time to avoid being sucker punched, but fails to launch a pre-emptive attack until the assault is already under way and the attacker is not incompetent at fighting. In this case, the defender better know how to fight*.

Perhaps the defender does see the threat coming and does launch a pre-emptive attack - but the assailant is tough enough and skilled enough that he is not immediately finished off or intimidated into retreat. In this case, the defender better know how to fight*.

Perhaps the defender does see the threat coming and does launch a pre-emptive attack and does drop the attacker where he stands - but the attacker has a buddy who decides to continue the assault and now won't be taken by surprise. In this case the defender better know how to fight.*

*(Or run, but retreat isn't always possible for a number of reasons.)

I'm all in favor of training to be prepared to finish an encounter quickly with a pre-emptive attack. I'm not in favor of presuming that this tactic will always work and be all that you ever need.

I am not saying that SD training is some magical power that will help you if you are attacked in code white (as you describe) . As Geoff Thompson says, if you are attacked in code white only thing that will save you is the ineptitude of your attacker.

So it doesn't mater what psychical skills you have, if you are switched off, and your attacker isn't inept, it's game over anyway, whether you train for fighting, SD or table tennis.

Doesn't change the fact that if you want to get good at consensual fighting train for it, if you want to get good at SD train for it, but training for one in the hope that it will work for the other isn't the the best way to go about it.

 

[drop bear]

No one is saying things never go wrong, and he doesn't get a go. But as usual, you are being deliberately obtuse.

You just don't train for them going wrong?

 

[Psilent Knight]

There's a HUGE difference between a "match fighting" situation and self defense. I believe Paul_D is saying that our training should be geared towards avoiding match fighting as best as possible if self defense/self protection is our goal. Street fights, sport competitions and any other type of symmetrical, two way, back-and-forth exchanges are match fights which is different from a preemptive, ASYMMETRICAL, one way barrage done in the name of self protection/self defense. IMO Sparring is useful for give and take, back and forth match fighting but detrimental for realistic self defense.

Take Care and Have A Great Day,

Osu!

 

[Psilent Knight]

I am not saying that SD training is some magical power that will help you if you are attacked in code white (as you describe) . As Geoff Thompson says, if you are attacked in code white only thing that will save you is the ineptitude of your attacker.

So it doesn't mater what psychical skills you have, if you are switched off, and your attacker isn't inept, it's game over anyway, whether you train for fighting, SD or table tennis.

Doesn't change the fact that if you want to get good at consensual fighting train for it, if you want to get good at SD train for it, but training for one in the hope that it will work for the other isn't the the best way to go about it.

A great post which I personally agree with wholeheartedly. And just to add to it I also believe that we should devote just as much time to learning how to stay "Coded Up/Switched On" as we do to physical self defense training.

Take Care Everyone and Have A Great Day,

Osu!