How important is sparring in traditonal karate?

[Paul_D]

(BTW - by sparring I don't mean playing bouncy-bounce tippy-tappy from long range. I agree that particular sort of sparring doesn't help much with developing the ability to pre-emptively launch a barrage of overwhelming violence at close range.)

But I am guessing that's what the OP was referring to, so that was the context that I was working on.

Obviously if what others are doing is different to that, but they still chose to call it sparring, then I'm sure it's more fit for purpose.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But I am guessing that's what the OP was referring to, so that was the context that I was working on.

Maybe, but since the OP hasn't done any real sparring of any sort I wouldn't assume that there's a particular format of sparring he was asking about.

Obviously if what others are doing is different to that, but they still chose to call it sparring, then I'm sure it's more fit for purpose.

I call it sparring because it is sparring. Bouncy-bouncy tippy-tappy tag with most targets and most techniques forbidden may (unfortunately) be a common form of sparring. that doesn't mean it's the only form of sparring any more than XMA forms are the only kind of kata.

I'll quote myself from an earlier thread:

Types of sparring I do/have done ...

light, medium, hard contact
no protective gear, MMA gloves, Boxing gloves, shin pads, full armor, whatever seems appropriate for the level of contact and the techniques being used
punching only
punching and kicking only
clinching & knees only
punching, kicking, clinching and knees only
all strikes
grappling, takedowns only
grappling, just looking to enter to a control position for a takedown
ground grappling only, looking for submissions
grappling with takedowns and groundwork
positional ground grappling (ex - starting in mount, bottom person trying to escape, top person trying to submit)
ground grappling - pass or sweep
ground grappling - pass, sweep, or submit
ground grappling - pass, sweep, submit, or stand up
stand up sparring with strikes and takedowns
ground grappling with strikes
stand up sparring with strikes and takedowns, continuing on the ground
stand up and ground sparring with various "dirty tactics" allowed, such as hair pulling, groin attacks, (simulated) eye gouges, etc
situational/environmental setups - fighting in a car, on a couch, etc - grappling only and grappling with strikes
sparring where I try to limit myself to fighting within a given style or structure (i.e. use only Wing Chun, use only the Philly shell, etc)
stick sparring with padded sticks
stick sparring with real sticks and protective gear
knife sparring with training knives
unarmed against knife (standing and on the ground)
one against multiples grappling only
one against multiples strikes included
one against multiple weapons included
multiple against multiples
asymmetric rules (ex - one person can only strike, the other can only grapple; one person is trying to restrain the other who is trying to get away, etc)
various scenario drills aimed at specific situations, for example: to simulate having to recover from a sucker punch, one person stands in the middle of a "crowd" (the rest of the class gathered close), bends over to look at their toes, and spins around 30 times really fast*. During this time, another person is designated at the sucker puncher, puts on boxing gloves, and comes in aggressively shoving and punching once the punchee stops spinning. The defender must either clinch long enough to clear their head (if they can stand) or defend themselves from the ground using open guard long enough to clear their head (if they fall down).

*(If you've never been TKO'd, this gives a passable simulation of what it feels like. It doesn't really hurt that much, but your balance is shot.)

All sparring should be treated as a learning experience, not a proving ground for who's the biggest badass. Have a plan going in for what you want to learn. Afterwards, try to analyze what sort of problems, lessons, or discoveries you encountered. When I'm teaching class I like to do a Q&A so we can troubleshoot specific problems students may have run into while sparring.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

How important is sparring in terms of traditional karate and self defence?

In my experience, it is not necessary if we are discussing the typical type of sparring practice. I don't spar. I have successfully used the martial arts in excess of a thousand times on/off duty (I stopped counting years ago). I train/teach kata and bunkai. To me, bunkai goes well beyond typical sparring.

 

[Buka]

Maybe, but since the OP hasn't done any real sparring of any sort I wouldn't assume that there's a particular format of sparring he was asking about.



I call it sparring because it is sparring. Bouncy-bouncy tippy-tappy tag with most targets and most techniques forbidden may (unfortunately) be a common form of sparring. that doesn't mean it's the only form of sparring any more than XMA forms are the only kind of kata.

I'll quote myself from an earlier thread:

Types of sparring I do/have done ...

light, medium, hard contact
no protective gear, MMA gloves, Boxing gloves, shin pads, full armor, whatever seems appropriate for the level of contact and the techniques being used
punching only
punching and kicking only
clinching & knees only
punching, kicking, clinching and knees only
all strikes
grappling, takedowns only
grappling, just looking to enter to a control position for a takedown
ground grappling only, looking for submissions
grappling with takedowns and groundwork
positional ground grappling (ex - starting in mount, bottom person trying to escape, top person trying to submit)
ground grappling - pass or sweep
ground grappling - pass, sweep, or submit
ground grappling - pass, sweep, submit, or stand up
stand up sparring with strikes and takedowns
ground grappling with strikes
stand up sparring with strikes and takedowns, continuing on the ground
stand up and ground sparring with various "dirty tactics" allowed, such as hair pulling, groin attacks, (simulated) eye gouges, etc
situational/environmental setups - fighting in a car, on a couch, etc - grappling only and grappling with strikes
sparring where I try to limit myself to fighting within a given style or structure (i.e. use only Wing Chun, use only the Philly shell, etc)
stick sparring with padded sticks
stick sparring with real sticks and protective gear
knife sparring with training knives
unarmed against knife (standing and on the ground)
one against multiples grappling only
one against multiples strikes included
one against multiple weapons included
multiple against multiples
asymmetric rules (ex - one person can only strike, the other can only grapple; one person is trying to restrain the other who is trying to get away, etc)
various scenario drills aimed at specific situations, for example: to simulate having to recover from a sucker punch, one person stands in the middle of a "crowd" (the rest of the class gathered close), bends over to look at their toes, and spins around 30 times really fast*. During this time, another person is designated at the sucker puncher, puts on boxing gloves, and comes in aggressively shoving and punching once the punchee stops spinning. The defender must either clinch long enough to clear their head (if they can stand) or defend themselves from the ground using open guard long enough to clear their head (if they fall down).

*(If you've never been TKO'd, this gives a passable simulation of what it feels like. It doesn't really hurt that much, but your balance is shot.)

All sparring should be treated as a learning experience, not a proving ground for who's the biggest badass. Have a plan going in for what you want to learn. Afterwards, try to analyze what sort of problems, lessons, or discoveries you encountered. When I'm teaching class I like to do a Q&A so we can troubleshoot specific problems students may have run into while sparring.

In my opinion, this is wonderful. Such well rounded practical experience.

 

[drop bear]

In my experience, it is not necessary if we are discussing the typical type of sparring practice. I don't spar. I have successfully used the martial arts in excess of a thousand times on/off duty (I stopped counting years ago). I train/teach kata and bunkai. To me, bunkai goes well beyond typical sparring.

Yeah. But you are counting on having a gun,knife and bat.

Karate doesn't really rely on those.

(Those deadly killer statements sound tough at the time. But it comes back to bite you

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Yeah. But you are counting on having a gun,knife and bat.

Karate doesn't really rely on those.

(Those deadly killer statements sound tough at the time. But it comes back to bite you

Most of your posts are incoherent babbling, but this one is even above your normal gibberish. Where, in my statement that you quoted, did I state anything about a gun, knife or bat?

 

[Andrew Green]

How important is sparring in terms of traditional karate and self defence?

Depends on your goals. I suspect 100 years ago people disagreed on what was important and why too. If you want to be able to fight, you need to spar. If you have different goals, maybe not.

I am a recent black belt in Karate (I only got it a year ago) and I have never sparred. Our organisation prides itself on being a traditional club, and whenever I mention sparring i am told we do it in the form of bunkai (application of kata or forms). I understand this is learning about how to apply the kata in a self defence situation but to me it feels very controlled. We know what is coming.

Sparring has been done and not done in schools for a very, very long time. I imagine a lot of the "old" masters would have told you sparring is not only important, but necessary. And probably a few that would say it isn't.

Should I be worried? Should I be sparring in order to become a better martial artist? Or am I just overthinking this?

Worried? Is your lifestyle one that will likely have you in fights from time to time? Most of us will never be in a fight, so being "worried" isn't really called for. But without sparring it's all just theory without application.

Now that said depending on your goals you need to watch how you spar. Some forms of sparring aren't all that useful and might even create more bad habits then they fix.

But in the end as long as you are having fun and being honest with yourself about what you are doing and the limitations of it you're fine. Sparring will develop a whole new set of skills that, depending on your goals might be very important, or completely irrelevant. Me personally, sparring is the centre of everything, without it it's all just empty theory. But more importantly, not as fun

 

[Charlemagne]

I really don't see how one cannot spar, at least once and a while, and claim to be teaching a martial art at the same time. At the end of the day, you can either use what you have been taught against someone who is not being cooperative, or you cannot. There is no gray area there. How are you ever going to know that unless you occasionally put that to the test, albeit in a controlled environment? I'm not suggesting that people in the same training group need to beat the snot out of each other, far from it. Sparring can be done in a safe manner and in a way where you are trying to make each other better. However, the idea that someone could get a Black Belt in Karate and not spar makes little sense to me.

 

[Andrew Green]

I really don't see how one cannot spar, at least once and a while, and claim to be teaching a martial art at the same time.

Iaido
Kyodo
Generally Kobudo
Tai chi
Aikido
wushu
many forms of Japanese JJ
Same for Chin Na
Capoeira... I suppose you could sort of call is sparring?

Plenty of martial arts don't use free sparring.

 

[Charlemagne]

Iaido
Kyodo
Generally Kobudo
Tai chi
Aikido
wushu
many forms of Japanese JJ
Same for Chin Na
Capoeira... I suppose you could sort of call is sparring?

Plenty of martial arts don't use free sparring.

Fair, to a point. I would suggest that several things which are called martial arts, aren't, but that is just me.

 

[Andrew Green]

Fair, to a point. I would suggest that several things which are called martial arts, aren't, but that is just me.

And Bowling isn't a real sport!

Neither is Curling!

Wait... I'm Canadian... Curling is so a sport!

 

[Charlemagne]

And Bowling isn't a real sport!

Neither is Curling!

Wait... I'm Canadian... Curling is so a sport!

It's got a target, it's a sport. Now gymnastics or figure skating on the other hand... LOL

 

[drop bear]

Most of your posts are incoherent babbling, but this one is even above your normal gibberish. Where, in my statement that you quoted, did I state anything about a gun, knife or bat?

That is because I am playing chess while you are playing checkers.

Remember the conversation with Hanzou. Where you would spar but you need a bat a gun and a knife?

I'm sorry you're not 100%.

Just to make sure the premise is understood, hypothetically, you can rely on your training and I can rely on mine. Mine incorporates firearms, kubaton (and other types of batons) and edged weapons. In the ring I would have my HK P30SK, serrated Hawkbill and kubaton which is my normal EDC. Is this acceptable?

See you couldn't step in to a ring unless armed to the teeth.

 

[drop bear]

Iaido
Kyodo
Generally Kobudo
Tai chi
Aikido
wushu
many forms of Japanese JJ
Same for Chin Na
Capoeira... I suppose you could sort of call is sparring?

Plenty of martial arts don't use free sparring.

Roda is sparring.

 

[Andrew Green]

Roda is sparring.

In a very, very, very stylized way that stretches the line between dance and sparring about as far as you can...

 

[drop bear]

In a very, very, very stylized way that stretches the line between dance and sparring about as far as you can...

 

[TSDTexan]

How important is sparring in terms of traditional karate and self defence?

I am a recent black belt in Karate (I only got it a year ago) and I have never sparred. Our organisation prides itself on being a traditional club, and whenever I mention sparring i am told we do it in the form of bunkai (application of kata or forms). I understand this is learning about how to apply the kata in a self defence situation but to me it feels very controlled. We know what is coming.

I have no interest in competition, but the fact that I have never even been in a real fight let alone a sparring session worries me.

Should I be worried? Should I be sparring in order to become a better martial artist? Or am I just overthinking this?

Thanks for reading.

H

You are over thinking it.

Just do your kata and learn the bunkai.

Do your kata correctly daily, 10 time this week, 20 times per day in three months. In 8 months do your kata 30 times per day.

One year from now, do your kata 50 times per day for 6 months straight.

Then get training on how to strike the Makiwara.

The goal here is Progressive resistance/power.... slowly dialing it up.

Eventually, you will spend 1 hour per day on the Makiwara, and ten minutes on just one form.

The Makiwara will give you feedback on your structure, posture, and balance and at the same time it will subconsciously teach you range for your strikes.

After a year of daily Makiwara training then move to step three.

Iron palm, iron fist and iron foot training. You will need to find a competent instructor if you can. If you can't, find the book by Dale Dugas called "Fundamental Iron Skills".

The goal of this training is to condition your striking body parts for actual use without injury.

Your skin will be toughened and callused, your bones will radically increase in density and become impact resilient, and your tendons and ligaments will become stronger, and more supple.

You will be able to Crack and break coconuts with your knife hand strike etc. Without injury.

Then you can proceed to other aspects of hojo undo to help improve power, and speed.

But always strike your Makiwara daily, because your body will undergo changes, and this tool gives you feedback to keep it calibrated.

And always do your kata daily, even if its just once.

Ten years from now, be kind to others.
Share what you have learned, on the way.

This I tell you... so you will realize that if you are not "sparing", Karate has methods to teach your body how to defend itself.

 

[morlock]

A criminal assailant (mugger, rapist, whatever) has the luxury of only choosing to attack when he perceives the defender is unaware and unprepared and thus overpowering the victim without resistance. In fact, this is a primary tactic for predators.

Someone defending against said criminal attacker will very likely not have this luxury.

Yes, an ideal outcome might be for the target to perceive the threat before an actual attack is launched and initiate his/her own pre-emptive attack to overwhelm the enemy before he realizes the fight has started or that his target is ready to defend him/herself. Unfortunately we don't live in a world where everything goes ideally.

Perhaps the assailant is the one who succeeds in landing a surprise attack. In this case the defender (if not unconscious or bleeding out) is now hurt, disoriented, off-balance, with a compromised position and structure, while having to deal with continued incoming attacks. In this case, the defender better know how to fight*.

Perhaps the defender sees the threat coming in time to avoid being sucker punched, but fails to launch a pre-emptive attack until the assault is already under way and the attacker is not incompetent at fighting. In this case, the defender better know how to fight*.

Perhaps the defender does see the threat coming and does launch a pre-emptive attack - but the assailant is tough enough and skilled enough that he is not immediately finished off or intimidated into retreat. In this case, the defender better know how to fight*.

Perhaps the defender does see the threat coming and does launch a pre-emptive attack and does drop the attacker where he stands - but the attacker has a buddy who decides to continue the assault and now won't be taken by surprise. In this case the defender better know how to fight.*

*(Or run, but retreat isn't always possible for a number of reasons.)

I'm all in favor of training to be prepared to finish an encounter quickly with a pre-emptive attack. I'm not in favor of presuming that this tactic will always work and be all that you ever need.

I think this is a good philosophy to have regarding aggressions.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Kong Soo Do]

That is because I am playing chess while you are playing checkers.

No, you're involving yourself in conversations across the board in which you have no knowledge. I suspect to up your post count which is why you have nearly 11K posts in just over three years on the board.

Remember the conversation with Hanzou. Where you would spar but you need a bat a gun and a knife?

I do remember the conversation with Hanzou, because I was involved in the conversation. That's why I know it has nothing to do with this thread. And the post was made to emphasis a specific point in the other thread. A point that was understood by Hanzou, and others...but apparently went right over your head.

You should make reading comprehension a priority in you life. I would save you a lot of grief.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I really don't see how one cannot spar, at least once and a while, and claim to be teaching a martial art at the same time.

Because you are familiar only with a specific model of training. That model of training, while effective for one type of martial art, isn't necessarily effective for other types of martial arts. It all boils down to the focus, goal and teaching methodology.