How important is sparring in traditonal karate?

[Kong Soo Do]

I will add another item into the mix, taken from the Chinese forms and fundamentals. Often the movement is exaggerated in practice, and people who are not familiar with the purpose and the method criticize that exaggeration. The fist chambered at the hip while in horse stance could be an example of this. But the purpose of the exaggeration is to help you understand the body connection that gives a real boost to ones power. Throwing a punch with the whole body working together is a lot more powerful than throwing a punch with the strength of the arm and shoulder. The exaggerated movement can help a student understand how to make those connections and develop that skill. Once that is done, then the exaggerated movement is reduced and eliminated in actual application, even if it is retained during training as a reinforcement mechanism.

But someone who isn't familiar with that approach to training simply sees an exaggerated movement in a training scenario, and believes that is how someone tries to fight, and thinks it's a bad idea.

I think you're spot on with your assessment. I'll toss in another example. The 'down block';

Often taught as a block for a low attack, such as a kick. How often to we see this in actual fights? How effective would/could it be in a real fight? Let's examine the use of this 'block' against a kick. For a defense against a front kick...perhaps. Although we need to realize that an reaction is slower than an action. But I suppose it might work...maybe. But against a side kick, particularly if the kicker has conditioned their shins the defense has some problems. First, the defender using the 'block' would have to anticipate what type of kick the attacker is going to use. Not an easy task in a chaotic, fluid situation. Second, trying to block a side kick in this manner will require spot on timing and the correct point of contact i.e. the instep and not the shin. Why? Well if the attacker has conditioned their shins and your ulna connects with their shin your going to end up with an injured arm. I speak from experience. I've conditioned my shins over the years. Attacker did no body conditioning. His unconditioned limb came into dynamic contact with my conditioned limb and ended up with him on the ground in quite a lot of pain and injury. Third, is there often a better interpretation for this movement? Well, depending on the kata and associated movements it makes one hell of a hammer fist strike to the lower body part of an attacker.

Again, the bunkai depends on the kata in question and the associated movements. This is one example of a possible bunkai.

 

[Paul_D]

John Burke Sensei teaches 100 applications for Gedan Barai, none of them are blocks.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

John Burke Sensei teaches 100 applications for Gedan Barai, none of them are blocks.

Thanks for posting this. Just signed up for his newsletter. Is he in any way associated with Abernethy Sensei?

 

[morlock]

Thanks for posting this. Just signed up for his newsletter. Is he in any way associated with Abernethy Sensei?

Where can we find this newsletter?

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

Well, I don't think there is any difinitive way to say that one is better or worse than the other, in an absolute way. Context matters, like I mentioned earlier. What are the needs, and how does the individual person relate to and connect with the methodology?

I will say that if your desire is to get into a ring and fight competitively, then some form of sparring will probably serve you well. But I am utterly unconvinced that it is necessary for someone who wil not fight in competition. That doesn't mean that it cannot still be worth while. But again, contex matters.

And I will also say, as I have said many times, that it is ok to recognize that you don't have the experience to properly understand some XYZ aspect of the martial arts. No problem with that. But it becomes a problem if you decide that it's worthless, in spite of your lack of understanding. That is a decision based on ignorance, I encourage you to not be that guy.

Why would sparring serve you well in the ring though? What specific ring skills does sparring give you that is not a self defence skill?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Where can we find this newsletter?

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

Karate Kata Bunkai

 

[morlock]

Karate Kata Bunkai

Thank you!

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

John Burke Sensei teaches 100 applications for Gedan Barai, none of them are blocks.

It doesn't matter if they are blocks or not. The application either works or it doesnt.

This is not complicated. There is no clever logic. You show the aplication working. Then the aplication works. If you cant show the aplication dont expect people to believe you.

 

[Paul_D]

Thanks for posting this. Just signed up for his newsletter. Is he in any way associated with Abernethy Sensei?

No, he has developed similar stuff but independently. John deliberately hasn't trained with Iain so he can't be accused of punching his stuff . I train with John once a year when he comes up to my part of the UK. Great guy.

 

[Paul_D]

If you cant show the aplication dont expect people to believe you.

I'm not asking you to believe me, nor do I care if you believe me. Your inability to understand kata has no bearing on its effectiveness.

 

[Paul_D]

No, he has developed similar stuff but independently. John deliberately hasn't trained with Iain so he can't be accused of punching his stuff . I train with John once a year when he comes up to my part of the UK. Great guy.

*pinching, not punching. Bloody auto correct!

 

[marques]

As

I think you're spot on with your assessment. I'll toss in another example. The 'down block';

Often taught as a block for a low attack, such as a kick. How often to we see this in actual fights? How effective would/could it be in a real fight? Let's examine the use of this 'block' against a kick. For a defense against a front kick...perhaps. Although we need to realize that an reaction is slower than an action. But I suppose it might work...maybe. But against a side kick, particularly if the kicker has conditioned their shins the defense has some problems. First, the defender using the 'block' would have to anticipate what type of kick the attacker is going to use. Not an easy task in a chaotic, fluid situation. Second, trying to block a side kick in this manner will require spot on timing and the correct point of contact i.e. the instep and not the shin. Why? Well if the attacker has conditioned their shins and your ulna connects with their shin your going to end up with an injured arm. I speak from experience. I've conditioned my shins over the years. Attacker did no body conditioning. His unconditioned limb came into dynamic contact with my conditioned limb and ended up with him on the ground in quite a lot of pain and injury. Third, is there often a better interpretation for this movement? Well, depending on the kata and associated movements it makes one hell of a hammer fist strike to the lower body part of an attacker.

Again, the bunkai depends on the kata in question and the associated movements. This is one example of a possible bunkai.

As a kickboxer (sort of) I very often rise the knew for a fake kick, step in, actual kick... And knowing that virtually everyone from beginner to the ones with little training and some who learned to block kicks with hands, it is just one of the easiest feints to punch, yet effective. (Even somehow effective against trained guys...)

And untrained people usually are more dangerous punching than kicking. So the "down block" should be used with caution. Another more extreme example is the X block defending growing kick (2 hands down, short distance..).

PS: As I didn't read the previous posts, I most be off topic.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not asking you to believe me, nor do I care if you believe me. Your inability to understand kata has no bearing on its effectiveness.

You are asking me to believe you. Believeing you is the entirety of the kata argument.

That is my point.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Thank you!

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

You're very welcome

 

[Buka]

I'm really enjoying this thread.

 

[Paul_D]

You are asking me to believe you.

No, I'm not. You are free to believe what we you want, but your belief and inability to understand kata does not change its ability to function.

Believeing you is the entirety of the kata argument.

It's not an arguement. It's people explaining kata to you, and you telling them they are wrong based on your inability to understand. That's not an arguement, it's just contradiction.

 

[Steve]

No, I'm not. You are free to believe what we you want, but your belief and inability to understand kata does not change its ability to function.

It's not an arguement. It's people explaining kata to you, and you telling them they are wrong based on your inability to understand. That's not an arguement, it's just contradiction.

I think by argument he's using the philosophy definition. You're asserting a conclusion based upon premises. Thats an argument.

 

[drop bear]

No, I'm not. You are free to believe what we you want, but your belief and inability to understand kata does not change its ability to function.

It's not an arguement. It's people explaining kata to you, and you telling them they are wrong based on your inability to understand. That's not an arguement, it's just contradiction.

Why are you relying on belief either way?

I don't understand how martial arts is faith based.

I mean even if I understood kata. There is still no evidence to understand or not.

 

[Paul_D]

I think by argument he's using the philosophy definition. You're asserting a conclusion based upon premises. Thats an argument.

I was having a little fun with part, 'twas too tempting to resist....

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

M: It's just contradiction!

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'm really enjoying this thread.

Me too. The information leading to a link to John Burke's website was a nice bonus.