Homosexuality and Christianity, Part 20075

[punisher73]

Actually, there's a lot of questions around my OP. So there's room to wander a bit.

" If Jesus discarded Mosaic law, why is homosexuality still wrong but eating shrimp isn't? If Mosaic law is binding, why do you ignore most of it? The argument is about the arguments people make from the Bible, not the Bible itself."

This is one part of my question.
Another are the differences in translations, some which drastically change the meaning of sections.

And Bill, you're correct, it is a hammer. But the counter hammer is the one where people pick and choose what to cite, while being woefully ignorant of the work as a whole, it's meanings and reasonings, etc.

Also, I think someone who is telling me that being gay is a sin, better not have a mohawk, a skull tattoo and be gnawing on a bbq pig rib with a copy of Sleezy Ridher sticking out of his polyester blend overalls. I might have to stone him for heracy or something. (The hippies had it right...everyone must be stoned. They just found a non-violent way to do so. )

There's also the whole "lets dip our bullets in pig blood and shoot terrorists" crowd who is ignorant that the 'pig unclean' argument also can apply to Jews and Christians too.

Then there's the does the old test apply to Christians question. Some say yea some nay. If it's nay, why is it even included in the book? Etc.

So, idea foder.

For me personally, I will paraphrase Paul, "I work out my faith with fear and trembling". I look to Jesus' two commandments as a Christian. Love your God with your all, and love your neighbor as yourself.
"Should I" or "Shouldn't I" do something is examined through those two lenses. I will look to the Gospels to see what Jesus had to say about it, and then to Paul to see how he viewed things. I read the Old Testament only for the stories of faith and God's plan and hand throughout history. I believe that Jesus made a new covanent and I am not under the "old law".

As to the question about picking and choosing laws...yes and no. I follow what I believe to be "right" in that it passes three criteria. 1) Does it negatively impact my relationship with God? 2) Does it negatively impact my relationship with someone else? 3) Does it impact how another person may view God's love?

Using homosexuality as an example, if I go out and tell every person who differs from my opinion how wrong they are and how IMO they are going to hell. I violate my #3. They aren't going to learn God's love by my judgementalism, they have enough other people showing them hate. If they are seeking my opinion and ask it, I will give it and state why.

I could be wrong about my whole approach, but then that's between God and I. When I stand before Him, he will ask the same question that Jesus asked Peter. Do you love me? Did you feed my sheep?

 

[granfire]

me, I am still hung up on the bacon....went to the store and forgot to buy any

 

[fangjian]

As to the question about picking and choosing laws...yes and no. I follow what I believe to be "right" in that it passes three criteria. 1) Does it negatively impact my relationship with God? 2) Does it negatively impact my relationship with someone else? 3) Does it impact how another person may view God's love?

Interesting way to look at it.

But that would be using some human reason to establish what is right and wrong. Not the bible. Doesn't that go against the idea of an objective morality established by the testaments? Do you disregard the OT entirely ( their laws )?

Of course, I believe that we get our morality through Evolution. In the same way monkeys, tigers, fish etc. don't just go around killing each other (within species), we don't either. For the most part, of course.

 

[WC_lun]

Most people do not believe the bible to be a literal work. They only want to take the pieces they believe as literal. So a person can understand that selling girl children really isn't okay, but when it comes to being homosexual God says it is a sin! It is just more of people justifying thier own personal beliefs and calling it religion because they can't come up with real answers.

 

[Blade96]

I'd like to know exactly why homosexuality is a sin. according to the religion. What's wrong with it. If my karate brown belt buddy, who is a lesbian, wants to live with her gf, exactly how does that hurt me? or anyone else for that matter??

 

[Bill Mattocks]

These are different questions.

I'd like to know exactly why homosexuality is a sin.

The Christian Bible often does not explain why a person is not allowed to do something, or why it is bad, just that they are forbidden to do it or that it is bad. I'm sorry, but there are not always explanations.

according to the religion.

According to the book itself, depending on the translation in question.

What's wrong with it.

You'd have to ask God that, if you're a believer, and if not, then there is no one to ask.

If my karate brown belt buddy, who is a lesbian, wants to live with her gf, exactly how does that hurt me? or anyone else for that matter??

I don't see that it does. But I'm not God. I didn't write the book. That's why they are different questions.

Who said homosexuality was a sin? God did, if you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Men did, if you don't believe that God caused it to be written.

Why did they say it was a sin? You'd have to ask them. I have no idea. I can say that historically, homosexuality has been a taboo in a lot of societies, even before Christianity. There have been exceptions.

What's wrong with it? Again, not my question to answer. Ask God if you believe. If you don't believe then I guess you'd have to look to mankind to answer the question. There are some who feel it is a danger to our society. Probably many more who do not.

 

[fangjian]

I'd like to know exactly why homosexuality is a sin. according to the religion. What's wrong with it. If my karate brown belt buddy, who is a lesbian, wants to live with her gf, exactly how does that hurt me? or anyone else for that matter??

Well, I don't think there is a reason why. It is part of the bible, and it is 'an abomination to god'. That's it. It doesn't matter if they are evil or nice or whatever.

 

[Empty Hands]

I'd like to know exactly why homosexuality is a sin. according to the religion. What's wrong with it. If my karate brown belt buddy, who is a lesbian, wants to live with her gf, exactly how does that hurt me? or anyone else for that matter??

Some Christian theologies hold that God's model for human sexuality is embodied by a married man and woman at least open to producing children. Anything that deviates from that model is by definition a corruption of God's master plan and example, and thus sinful. That doesn't explain why some get so bent out of shape about homosexuality in particular, but that's the theology at least.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Had a discussion with a friend. It went kinda like this:
(Note, summarizing and condensing).
====
The origin of man went like this:
God was bored, so he took a week off work and created the earth, lots of animals, and finally man who he named Adam.
God saw that Adam was a bit lonely, so he created woman to keep him company in the busy job of walking around the Garden.
Her name was Lilith.
Lilith was a bit too much for man, so she got tossed, and Got knocked Adam out for a bit.
Being short of cash and raw materials, God took a rib from Adam and used that to make Woman 2.0 whom was named Eve.
Adam and Eve then spent some time working at wandering around the garden, until one fateful day when a serpent (who some say was the devil, some Lucifer, others God playing a big prank, but also the icon of a competing faith at the time possibly cast as the bad guy here) suggested that Eve eat a forbidden fruit (which is commonly called an apple, though might be a pomegranate or even a fig).
After eating the super fruit, she then tricked Adam into eating it too, beginning the tradition of women tricking a dumb male into eating something he shouldn't.
Then then realized they were naked, and as K'Mart hadn't been invented yet, immediately made fig leaf undies to hide with.
God, confused at this wanted to know what was going on, and when finding out how stupid his creation had been, kicked them out of paradise and promptly went to reread the instructions on where that smarts bit should go.

Once kicked out of paradise, these 2 idiots then begat 2 more idiots.
Eve being part of Adam, these were the first 2 red necks in recorded history.
After a while, Cain kills his brother Able, and is again cast out, and wanders the world until he starts a family of his own. With whom, the story isn't clear.
God may have felt sorry for this loser too and found some spare mud, knocked him out and took a couple of vertebra, or something else. We don't know.

But we do know that all humanity can trace back to a couple with brain damage and inbreeding.

And this is how we get todays American political parties.

===

The actual conversation was much longer, and had more funny parts (often stolen from Bill Cosby and Sam Kinison). It also got into much deeper aspects of Genesis, and origin myths in general.

What's my point?
You can take the Bible (Any bible) as an accurate history OR you can take it as written oral histories, passed down from generations, influenced by previous religions with massive distortions introduced over time. The main point is however to illustrate "This is what is good and bad, and this is how you should live in order to be a good person".

Understanding the 'why does the book say this' is important. As has been indicated, historically there -were- reasons for many things in there. Health codes, legal codes, civil laws codified, and so on. Why the couple of prohibitions against -male- homosexual activities? (Note it's almost always the male-male thats condemned. The women get much lighter punishments, etc). Well, looking at the codes around them, it could be that it was because 2 guys can't create life, and life was important. It could be that it was considered 'unclean'. It could be that 'anal tearing' was life threatening. I could speculate a lot, it's not too clear and several stanzas are of questionable translation. What I am certain on is that 3rd century Christians spent a lot less time thinking about it than 20th and 21st century ones do.


And please, take my recounting of biblical history as a tongue in cheek recount, and not intended to offend. Thanks.

 

[WC_lun]

Because it is different from the "normal" and for some people that equates into something bad or "sinful."

 

[granfire]

Because it is different from the "normal" and for some people that equates into something bad or "sinful."

well, normal is only that what you don't know well anyhow...

 

[bushidomartialarts]

So the Sib Kinship system was created in the 16th century? They taught me different in college, but it was community college; so, you could be right........ Not. Our views on homosexuality may be modern, but survival of the tribe was a priority... honest.
sean

Absolutely true, but tribe is different from "family" as meant when people cite the "family values" that homosexuals erode by wanting to form families. The nuclear, two-adult family is a very new idea in human history....and not including room for homosexuals is even newer.

 

[punisher73]

Interesting way to look at it.

But that would be using some human reason to establish what is right and wrong. Not the bible. Doesn't that go against the idea of an objective morality established by the testaments? Do you disregard the OT entirely ( their laws )?

No, I don't rely just on human reason, I use the Bible to see right and wrong, it's the gray areas that may not be specifically spelled out that I use the "rule of 3". I don't disregard the OT completely, I just don't believe that as Christians we are under the OT law as Jews are.

 

[Scott T]

I think I'll stick with 'For 1900 of the last 2000 years the Bible has been a great instrument of control of the masses used by the church'

It makes my head hurt a hell of a lot less than the ongoing discussion.

 

[granfire]

I think I'll stick with 'For 1900 of the last 2000 years the Bible has been a great instrument of control of the masses used by the church'

It makes my head hurt a hell of a lot less than the ongoing discussion.

Yes, I am sure the many crusades were well worth it! :lfao:

 

[CanuckMA]

Thanks for that. I'm not as familiar with the history of the Torah and its translations. But the OT -- and thus the most commonly available version of the Penteteuch (sp?) has suffered the same degradation as the rest of the Christian Bible.

That's why we use the Hebrew text for serious study. And THAT has not changd in millenia.

 

[CanuckMA]

For the record, homosexuality is not a sin. A particular sexual act is a sin.

 

[David43515]

For the record, homosexuality is not a sin. A particular sexual act is a sin.

That`s an important point.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

For the record, homosexuality is not a sin. A particular sexual act is a sin.

I thought the rub of the matter (no pun intended) was that pretty much anything two homosexuals want to do together, sexually speaking, by nature includes that sexual act...

 

[bushidomartialarts]

@ Bill

I agree that "The Bible Tells Me So" is sufficient justification for your personal moral beliefs. But since that attitude obviously affects policy in the United States -- policy that negatively affects the quality of life for citizens who aren't hurting anybody -- I think we're justified in asking for a little more.