History of Tea Kwon Do

[puunui]

I really wish that had been the case.

I think that is how I would handle it, assume that everyone already read the section on history in the course materials and then we can go from there. I don't think any of the written test questions had to do with the history section, so it really could have been a free for all in the history section. For fun too than following along while the instructor reads the passages from the textbook in class.

 

[Archtkd]

Depends on how the name was chosen, and why. My understanding was that there was a demonstration in 1954 which ROK President Rhee witnessed, and he exclaimed "That's Taekkyon!". So General Choi set up his naming committee whose purpose was to look up the hanja for Taekkyon. Finding none, they went with Taekwon, which was the closest approximation in the committee's eyes to Taekkyon. Looked at from that perspective, then you would include the history of Taekkyon when discussing Taekwondo.

Over and above that, there was nothing magical about 1955 which suddenly changed everything. Therefore, I don't see why we should be using that particular date as the start of anything. It's not like a whole new art was unveiled at that date. In fact, if I recall correctly, the first Chang Hon forms were not developed until 1957, two years later.

I have always though the years 1959, 1961 and 1965 where the more important ones. 1959 being the year when the Korea Taekwondo Association was launched and adopted the name Taekwondo, despite strong opposition from Hwang Kee of Moo Duk Kwan, Ro Byung Jick of Song Moo Kwan, Yoon Kwe Byung of Jidokwan and Lee Chong Woo of Jidokwan/Han Kuk Che Yuk Kwan, who wanted other names

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1961 was the year, when in the midst of political turmoil and a coup de etat, the association switched the name to Taesodoo​

1965 was the year when in another unification effort the association took up the name Taekwondo again.

This excerpts from "A Modern History of Taekwondo" describe some of the events:

1959

RO Byung Jick led the meeting which was held at the Han Kuk Che Yuk Kwan on September 19, 1961. However, because there were arguments on the elections and the naming of the art, the meeting did not go smoothly.
Another meeting was held the next day to discuss the same topics. Attending the meeting were:
1. YOON Kwe Byung (Jidokwan representative)
2. HWANG Kee (Moo Duk Kwan representative);
3. UHM Woon Kyu (Chung Do Kwan representative)
4. RO Byung Jick (Song Moo Kwan representative)
5. NAM Tae Hi (Oh Do Kwan representative)
6. LEE Nam Suk (Chang Moo Kwan representative)
Also attending were:
7. LEE Chong Woo (Jidokwan/Han Kuk Che Yuk Kwan)
8. LEE Kyo Yun (Han Moo Kwan)​

9. PARK Chul Hee (Kang Duk Won)

1961

The next part was the most sensitive topic of the meeting, which was the naming of the art. NAM Tae Hi said "I strongly suggest that the name has to be Taekwondo because the name Taekwondo was passed when the meeting had been held in 1959." UHM Woon Kyu agreed with NAM Tae Hi but YOON Kwe Byung said: "We agreed on the name Taekwondo unanimously because the Ministry of Education decided on the name Taekwondo, so it was not agreed unanimously." YOON also said, "And so we suggest Kong Soo Do be the name." YOON Kwe Byung was serious and his idea was that the name ong Soo Do (Karate Do) was the name recognized internationally, which was his strong argument. RO Byung Jick and LEE Nam Suk agreed with this. Because YOON Kwe Byung realized that the situation was going to messed up, he suggested Tae Soo Do, which came from Tae (Taekwondo) and Soo (Kong Soo Do). After the voting, the result was Taesoodo, which had 4 votes for and 2 votes abstention.​

1965
On March 18, 1965, there was a Unification Declaration Ceremony held at the Korea Amateur Sports Association auditorium. Moo Duk Kwan's HWANG Kee was there and agreed to the Declaration at the time. However, the very next day, HWANG Kee stated that the Unification Declaration was invalid. Moo Duk Kwan's HONG Chong Soo, who advised HWANG Kee for 36 hours straight on this issue, stated: "The day after the Unification Declaration Ceremony was held, HWANG Kee told me that the Declaration was invalid. I could not understand HWANG Kee and told him 'Why do you say that? You are one of the most famous
martial artists in the country and you should not say that the Unification Declaration is invalid.' I advised him a lot to try and get him to change his position. Finally, he asked me to call CHOI Hong Hi for him. When I gave HWANG Kee the telephone, he told CHOI Hong Hi that the Declaration was invalid and he hung up the telephone before CHOI Hong Hi could respond." The relationship between HWANG Kee and CHOI Hong Hi was bad. HWANG Kee objected to CHOI Hong Hi being the president of the Korea Taesoodo Association because he said the art and organization would not develop with CHOI Hong Hi in charge. After much discussion and argument back and forth over the issue, CHOI Hong Hi changed the name of the art from Taesoodo to Taekwondo, which led to great hostility from LEE Chong Woo and LEE Nam Suk. CHOI Hong Hi attempted to establish his authoritarian dictator style but he could not continue to lead because no one would follow him. After one year, CHOI Hong Hi was forced to resign the KTA presidency by LEE Chong Woo and UHM Woon Kyu. CHOI Hong Hi begged LEE Chong Woo to allow him to remain as President for six more months, but LEE Chong Woo said no.​

 

[puunui]

I have always though the years 1959, 1961 and 1965 where the more important ones. 1959 being the year when the Korea Taekwondo Association was launched and adopted the name Taekwondo, despite strong opposition from Hwang Kee of Moo Duk Kwan, Ro Byung Jick of Song Moo Kwan, Yoon Kwe Byung of Jidokwan and Lee Chong Woo of Jidokwan/Han Kuk Che Yuk Kwan, who wanted other names 1961 was the year, when in the midst of political turmoil and a coup de etat, the association switched the name to Taesodoo
1965 was the year when in another unification effort the association took up the name Taekwondo again.

Point of clarification: The 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association and the 1961 Korea Taesoodo Association were two separate organizations. The 1959 KTA was headed up by General Choi, and was not very well supported. The 1961 KTA was a completely new and separate organization when it was created in 1961. The present Korea Taekwondo Association counts 1961, not 1959, as the start date of its organization.

A little confusing because General Choi emphasizes the 1959 KTA in his books, and the names are the same, so people assume that the 1961 KTA was a continuation of the 1959 KTA, which it was not. I think the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan may have continued using the 1959 KTA organization name into the mid 1960's, but the other kwans did not participate.

 

[Archtkd]

Point of clarification: The 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association and the 1961 Korea Taesoodo Association were two separate organizations. The 1959 KTA was headed up by General Choi, and was not very well supported. The 1961 KTA was a completely new and separate organization when it was created in 1961. The present Korea Taekwondo Association counts 1961, not 1959, as the start date of its organization.

A little confusing because General Choi emphasizes the 1959 KTA in his books, and the names are the same, so people assume that the 1961 KTA was a continuation of the 1959 KTA, which it was not. I think the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan may have continued using the 1959 KTA organization name into the mid 1960's, but the other kwans did not participate.

Wow. Interesting. I always thought the 1965 activities leading up to General Choi's ouster where efforts to reorganize his 1959 KTA formation effort. I now see why my assumption shouldn't make sense. The general was in Malaysia when the 1961 KTA was formed. Where does GM Kim Bok Man fit in all this drama, if at all?

 

[puunui]

Wow. Interesting. I always thought the 1965 activities leading up to General Choi's ouster where efforts to reorganize his 1959 KTA formation effort. I now see why my assumption shouldn't make sense. The general was in Malaysia when the 1961 KTA was formed.

Some people also draw the false conclusion that General Choi was president of the KTA from 1959 to 1965 or 66, when the ITF was formed. But that isn't true either.

Where does GM Kim Bok Man fit in all this drama, if at all?

He is or was an ITF member, so he doesn't really fit into the picture. He is listed as a Kukkiwon 8th Dan as of 1997 in the Kukkiwon 25th Anniversary Book.

 

[mastercole]

What happened was this: At an IOC meeting, Dr. Un Yong Kim proposed that Taekwondo become an Olympic sport. The Japanese representatives asked why should Taekwondo be admitted instead of Karate, since Taekwondo is obviously a Korean form of Karate. Dr. Kim's response was to the effect that Korea has a long history and culture of the use of kicks, and that this emphasis made Taekwondo unique and different than Karate.

Everyone knows this. Everyone knows that Taekwondo and other Korean Martial Arts' distinction in the martial arts world is the emphasis on, and use of, kicks. Some people have asked where did this come from. Others have attempted to answer by using what they have, historical references from Korea to: a) show that Korea has a long history and tradition of the martial arts; and b) a long history of the use of kicks in the martial arts.

But in the end, no one really knows where the emphasis of kicks came from. But we all acknowledge that it is there, and has been there from the very beginning, this emphasis and history of kicking. It certainly did not come from karate, which had few kicks, which generally were not used in either self defense or competition sparring.

When the kwan founders started opening their schools, they generally taught what they knew, which was karate or kung fu based arts. Chung Do Kwan founder GM LEE Won Kuk for example, attempted to teach exactly as was taught to him, mainly from FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei. However, his students, who did not learn karate in Japan, had different ideas. Even back in the 1940's, there was a keen interest in and emphasis on, kicks. GM UHM Woon Kyu for example was known for his use of the side kick in sparring. I cannot say that I have ever heard of any karate practitioner back in the 1940's or earlier emphasizing side kick or any kick for that matter. Mostly it was lunge punch and reverse punch. When I trained in Shotokan Karate, we used front kick, but it was not really to score, but rather to make the opponent drop their guard so we could score with a lunge or reverse punch.

Some have come out with the fact that none of the pioneers learned Taekkyon or any other native Korean Martial Art prior to their study of Kwon Bup or Tang Soo Do. However, that doesn't mean that Taekkyon or some other native art did not influence the pioneers' thoughts and interests with respect to the martial arts.

The emphasis on kicking in Korea is similar to the emphasis on boxing in the US. Taekwondo practitioners who have never studied boxing still emphasize to each other and their students to "keep your hands up" during sparring, just like a boxing coach would. "Putting up your dukes" means you are going to fight. We can argue that the coaches and instructors who teach this (keep your hands up) never took boxing so boxing did not influence their martial arts. But would that be accurate?

In contrast, Korea did not have a cultural or historical attachment to boxing like Americans do, so they do not naturally "put up their dukes" when thinking about fighting. Instead, they bounce around with their arms dangling at their sides and use steps to try and kick each other. Where did this come from?

Again the answer seems to be Taekkyon, which has a unique system of steps which are used in conjunction with kicking. These are called "poom bal ki". Incidentally, the beginning stepping motions, where you step forward with one foot step back and then step forward with the other foot, looks to me like the hanja character "poom" with the three squares arranged in a triangle. Maybe that is where the stepping motions came from. I don't know. I leave that to the hanja experts to figure out, since I've been told that I obviously don't understand hanja.

Is the stepping used in Taekkyon exactly the same as the steps used in modern competition Taekwondo sparring? No. But I do not think it is a stretch to say that the concept is the same, which is to use steps in conjunction with kicks to score. This is different in philosophy from the american boxing influenced method of competition, which is to stand in range with your "hands up" and throw blows from reachable distance, just like in boxing.

This to me, is the message and point that is being conveyed with the "ancient history" stuff, the emphasis on the use of steps and kicks, a concept which did not come from Okinawan or Japanese Karate. And because the message and point was being made to the IOC, for inclusion of competition sparring only (not poomsae), we do not need to focus on that aspect of Taekwondo, forms, which is influenced greatly by Okinawan karate. I don't get into the specific details of soo bahk, or the hwa rang or any of that. I only look to those references to show that Korea indeed does have a long history of the martial arts, which some people dispute, due to Korea's confucian based value system. We are only talking about sparring, or at least Dr. Kim was when addressing the IOC, which did come from Korea.

I could not have said it better my self.

I will add that GM Chong Woo Lee of the Jidokwan, my teachers teacher and a person of great influence on Shihap Kyorugi (Olympic Sparring) told me while we were in Croatia in 1998 that none of the Kwan founders learned Taekkyon formally. Basically he said "we knew about Taekkyon and watched it, adding these kicking skills to our Taekwondo"

GM Yong Bok Lee, leader of Taekkyon in Korea who is my direct Taekkyon teacher along with his son Master Si Hyeok Lee recently stated basically the same thing. At the 5th Korean Martial Arts Forum, November 2010, he said that a number of Taekwondoin briefly trained with GM Song Duk Ki, but those Taekwondoin did not have an influence on the development of Taekwondo and most never understood the principle (gumsil/poombalki) of Song's Taekkyon. But GM Lee feels that Korean people have a natural tendency to kick, and that many people knew Taekkyon as a kicking game and play kicking at each other for fun (sometimes serious). He feels Korean people mixed a little of what they naturally knew of Taekkyon and kicking (over thousands of years) to Kong Soo Do, and like in Taekkyon, kicking became dominant, creating a new type of sparring.

 

[mastercole]

I don't know if they say it exactly like that but if you speak with the pioneers they all admit the fact that their teachers learned karate in Japan and/or chuan fa in manchuria. They freely admit it. It is not some huge big secret. There are enough books, magazine interviews internet webpages or whatever out there that confirm that as well. But the steps and kicking portion is decidedly korean. I think what is going on is that people focus only on the karate portion and think that is the whole of taekwondo. But the steps and the kicking are not, which is the portion that made it into the Olympics. If anything, karate took notice of taekwondo kicks and are adapting it to karate, but I don't see anyone trying to force karate practitioners to admit that. Think about it.

Even GM Yong Bok Lee of Taekkyon says that Shihap Kyorugi (Olympic Sparring) and Taekkyon matches are similar in many ways due to lots of kicking and stepping, unlike Poomsae and the rest of Taekwondo's curriculum.

 

[mastercole]

In fact, the second and third generation instructors didn't ask their instructors anything, and to tell you the truth, have a difficult time discussing history other than their own personal training.

I am convinced that most of these so called history information put out by dojang wasn't written by the head instructor in question (if they were Korean born) but rather by students who felt it added something to the marketing plan. Most likely it was an american born student who conceived of that idea, just like it was probably an american born co author who put those obligatory historical blurbs in their instructor's book.

This is true, I am surprised to find part or whole sections I wrote on the internet about Jidokwan history displayed in Taekwondo Dojang websites from around the world (and books). Much of it on my seniors websites.

 

[miguksaram]

Since we are all slipping on the opened can of worms I was just wondering how many out there have actually studied any Korean history outside of TKD or their chosen Korean martial art?

This might help give some clarity to not only their art but the mindset of the people who developed it. To have a more deeper understanding of the martial art you should try to understand the culture that developed it. To help understand the culture you should study the catalysts that spurred the developement of the culture.

We hear over and over that when the Japanese invaded Korea they destroyed all their historical records but that is not entirely true. Just two weeks ago France returned documents dating back to the early Joseon period that they stole from Korea during their invasion back in 1866.

Japan did not destroy all documents. They too stole a lot of them and took them back to their country along with historical items as well. Currently they are in negotiations to return such items.

 

[troubleenuf]

Ive been gone a few days so have been trying to catch up on this. I just want to get this right in my head. So:
From what I understand is that Glenn is saying that the Koreans have an affinity for kicking in their culture and this implies that they have in their past some form of martial art that is inherent in their genes? And because of this the Japanese influence dosnt count because they were already kicking even if they didnt know why? Dont jump down my throat, just asking the question.

 

[puunui]

From what I understand is that Glenn is saying that the Koreans have an affinity for kicking in their culture and this implies that they have in their past some form of martial art that is inherent in their genes? And because of this the Japanese influence dosnt count because they were already kicking even if they didnt know why?

I give up.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Since we are all slipping on the opened can of worms I was just wondering how many out there have actually studied any Korean history outside of TKD or their chosen Korean martial art?

This might help give some clarity to not only their art but the mindset of the people who developed it. To have a more deeper understanding of the martial art you should try to understand the culture that developed it. To help understand the culture you should study the catalysts that spurred the developement of the culture.

We hear over and over that when the Japanese invaded Korea they destroyed all their historical records but that is not entirely true. Just two weeks ago France returned documents dating back to the early Joseon period that they stole from Korea during their invasion back in 1866.

Japan did not destroy all documents. They too stole a lot of them and took them back to their country along with historical items as well. Currently they are in negotiations to return such items.

I havent. My old instructor though teaches english in korea and has lived there for years on and off and is very into the whole korean history, culture etc. I showed him this thread and he just started laughing. I dont know what in particular he was laughing at but he found the thread hillarious so obviously there is some funny stuff going on. Not that I understand any of it

 

[miguksaram]

I havent. My old instructor though teaches english in korea and has lived there for years on and off and is very into the whole korean history, culture etc. I showed him this thread and he just started laughing. I dont know what in particular he was laughing at but he found the thread hillarious so obviously there is some funny stuff going on. Not that I understand any of it

Which part did he find funny?

 

[troubleenuf]

What I want to know is what part was he not saying.

Which part did he find funny?

 

[troubleenuf]

Really? I was simply trying to put what you said in simpler terms. If I got it wrong please correct me but that is what I got out of what you said.

[/I]

I give up.

 

[Archtkd]

Ive been gone a few days so have been trying to catch up on this. I just want to get this right in my head. So:
From what I understand is that Glenn is saying that the Koreans have an affinity for kicking in their culture and this implies that they have in their past some form of martial art that is inherent in their genes? And because of this the Japanese influence dosnt count because they were already kicking even if they didnt know why? Dont jump down my throat, just asking the question.

Genes? This part of what Puuniu wrote:

"This to me, is the message and point that is being conveyed with the "ancient history" stuff, the emphasis on the use of steps and kicks, a concept which did not come from Okinawan or Japanese Karate. And because the message and point was being made to the IOC, for inclusion of competition sparring only (not poomsae), we do not need to focus on that aspect of Taekwondo, forms, which is influenced greatly by Okinawan karate. I don't get into the specific details of soo bahk, or the hwa rang or any of that. I only look to those references to show that Korea indeed does have a long history of the martial arts, which some people dispute, due to Korea's confucian based value system. We are only talking about sparring, or at least Dr. Kim was when addressing the IOC, which did come from Korea."

 

[troubleenuf]

This is the information in which Glen suggests that somehow the Koreans have something in their culture that makes them kick more than another culture. If you are going to use that as a historical basis Im afraid that there needs to be more to it than that. There are many cultures that have many different sports that involve kicking activities in them that are just as involved as the korean games. Im just trying to find out what he based his observations on and if he has any actual facts that went with it or if its just something that he "felt".

I don't think anyone will dispute that Koreans culturally like to kick. But try explaining how or why through historical research and you will come up with little, if any, information. That is the challenge that the book writers faced, and what they came up with were cave murals, the muyedobotongji, some references about soobahkki, hwarang, and taekkyon. that's all that there is to explain Korea's affinity and attachment to kicking and kicking games.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Which part did he find funny?

I honestly dont know. I am not overly interested in all the history side of tkd, its not that I dont care, I just tend to focus on the art now and my training. I caught up with my old instructor and he was talking about korean and tkd history and I mentioned this thread so he had a read and he had a giggle and said that parts of it were "quite funny". I didnt ask him to expand for 2 reasons. Firstly, as I mentioned, Im not big on the history side of things and secondly, if I get him started on korean or tkd history we will be there all night discussing it as its a subject he is very passionate about. I have made that mistake in the past and 6 hours and a bottle of whiskey later he was still giving me a history lesson

 

[miguksaram]

I have made that mistake in the past and 6 hours and a bottle of whiskey later he was still giving me a history lesson

I can see I would dig enjoying a pint with your old instructor.