question on Olympic versus Tradition

[MichiganTKD]

The reason why the signatures of Gen. Choi, Son Duk Sung, Hwang Kee, and others is irrelevant as far as the Kukkiwon is concerned is because those gentlemen made the decision years ago to chart their own course, with their own rules, own forms, and own philosophies of Tae Kwon Do.
Think about it. If you want to buy a car, you have GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes etc. All of them are perfectly respectable and can give you a good car. However, they all have their own policies and procedures, philosophies, and ethics. They are also all in competition. They respect each other as worthy competitors, but in the end they are responsible for themselves.
Why should the Kukkiwon recognize Gen. Choi's signature when he made the decision to leave Korea and make his own organization? Same with Hwang Kee and Son. The ITF is capable of producing able students, but the ITF is not the Kukkiwon. It is two separate organizations. Contrary to what some might hope, it is not one big happy Tae Kwon Do family, and it never will be.

 

[Zepp]

Since Grandmaster Son has been mentioned, and I train in his organization, I thought I'd share a little story I've been told about our org.

Grandmaster Son immigrated to the U.S. in 1962 (maybe it was '63) and first began teaching Tae Kwon Do here at West Point. Apparently, before the official founding of the WTF and the Kukkiwon, he used to make regular trips back to S. Korea with a team of students to give demonstrations of the older style of Tae Kwon Do which he taught. Then, after the founding of the WTF (it was 1974, right?) he was told by those in charge that they would no longer recognize what Mr. Son was teaching as being Tae Kwon Do. The fact that he had helped name it didn't seem to matter. That is why the World TKD Association isn't connected to the Kukkiwon. (Or so I'm told.)

 

[JanneM]

Thanks for the history info Zepp.

Taekwondo was still formed before your master went to america. The reasons why his tekwondo was not aproved by Kukkiwon might be the same as the reasons why any other msters diploms are not aprove in Kukkiwon. he didn't feel necessary to aply Kukkiwon diplomas in some reason and that ticked Kukkiwon of.

 

[Andy Cap]

Thanks for the history info Zepp.

Taekwondo was still formed before your master went to america. The reasons why his tekwondo was not aproved by Kukkiwon might be the same as the reasons why any other msters diploms are not aprove in Kukkiwon. he didn't feel necessary to aply Kukkiwon diplomas in some reason and that ticked Kukkiwon of.

In this instance his master was one of the people that formed Tae Kwon Do - don't you see that his master is the authority if ever there was one? I am not talking just about Kukkiwon TKD, but TKD in general. It was stated that the Kukkiwon is the authority on TKD - why? There are a few masters that were critical in the creation of TKD that do not follow Kukkiwon rules or trainings.

Kukkiwon is the authority on WTF TKD, but not all TKD - at least from everything I have ever read or heard. It just so happens that WTF TKD is the best marketted form of TKD in the world, so they have a greater following. Bigger isn't always better or more knowledgable.

 

[Zepp]

Kukkiwon is the authority on WTF TKD, but not all TKD - at least from everything I have ever read or heard. It just so happens that WTF TKD is the best marketted form of TKD in the world, so they have a greater following.

The WTF also has the official support of the RoK government. That sure hasn't hurt them any.

 

[MichiganTKD]

In some ways, it is better to be a TKD student outside Korea. Then you have choices. If you are a TKD student in Korea, the WTF and the Kukkiwon are the only game in town. My Instructor (Korean BTW) has told us the best Tae Kwon Do is actually outside Korea.

 

[JanneM]

Good marketing and help from the korean government are great help to Kukkiwon adn WTF.

My point in my past postigs are. All masters who formed taekwondo to bring korean kwans together and to for one art out of them accepted Kukkiwon to be the highest authority in it. Why should those masters be now equal authority in taekwondo as the organisation they have given the pover to?

 

[Andy Cap]

Good marketing and help from the korean government are great help to Kukkiwon adn WTF.

My point in my past postigs are. All masters who formed taekwondo to bring korean kwans together and to for one art out of them accepted Kukkiwon to be the highest authority in it. Why should those masters be now equal authority in taekwondo as the organisation they have given the pover to?

Well see that is just teh point. They all worked together to create TKD. Kukkiwon came later. Those founders of TKD did not like what they saw with the Kukkiwon and WTF, and that is exactly why they left. So, there juniors took what they had envisioned and twisted it. So those masters that started TKD did not agree with the creation of Kukkiwon or WTF. They agreed with the creation of TKD. Kukkiwon and TKD are two different things. If you look at the texts from any of these masters that were written about TKD in teh 60's and you will not see mention of Kukkiwon, Olympics, or Tae Gyuk. Those texts would be about tradition and history and technique.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Not entirely true. The KTA (out of which came the WTF and then the WTF) was formed by the Heads of the various Kwans, including Woon Kyu Uhm of Chung Do Kwan. So the idea that the WTF was formed by a bunch of juniors is incorrect. Some of the original Instructors left, but this was before the formation of the WTF or Kukkiwon, and not because they resisted WTF TKD.
Anyway, by the time the WTF formed, Tae Kwon Do was already being passed into the next generation of Instructors (the students of the original Founders). Keep in mind, this was almost 30 years after some of the original Instructors started teaching. Of course the next generation will begin to take control and implement new ideas.

 

[JanneM]

If they worked together to to make one art that is led by one organisation (in beginning it was KTA) why they needed to go on they won way? Money? Power? Did not like the way things would go years and years after the resign?
I don't mind that they left KTA and Kukkiwon but I wonder why should their dan diplomas be accepted by Kukkiwon these days as they are?? WHY?

 

[MichiganTKD]

Janne,

Keep in mind that, like anything else, Tae Kwon Do history is full of political and power struggles, as well as instructors wanting to pursue their own ideas. If you and I politically are enemies (for example), and I achieve a position of power (Kwan Jang of a style), you might very well leave because you know it will be impossible for you to achieve your goals with me leading. Some of the instructors left Korea because they knew they would be unable to achieve their goals or follow their agendas. It's politics and power.
It doesn't make their Tae Kwon Do bad or ineffective, they were victims of the times and circumstance. They decided they would not be successful in Korea.
My Instructor had the same thing happen to him, although for a slightly different reason. Because of his political affiliations, when the Korean leadership changed in the early 70's, he discovered he'd be unable to find a job in Korea at that time. So he came to America in 1974 to teach. He originally had a job lined up at Kent State in Ohio, but it disappeared when he got there. History students will know why.

 

[Andy Cap]

Very true MTKD - the founders and their juniors in most cases split because of oportunity to grow or develop money and power situations. The development of the Kukkiwon was an opportunity for the next generation as you call it, to make money and create a position for themselves.

JanneM asks why the Kukkiwon should honor dan certificates from the older masters that are not part of the Kukkiwon. my answer is simple....the masters in the Kukkiwon were the students of people like Hwang Kee, Gen. Choi, Duk Sung Son - they received their own dans from these very people. To say that these great men's certificates are not valid would invalidate their own rank - wouldn't it? This is my very point. The Kukkiwon and WTF are products of the students of the great masters. Yet, these students dishonor their instructor's certificates.

Personally, I would honor a certificate with Hwang Kee's signature before a certificate with a picture of the Kukkiwon on it because I know the lineage of the Grandmaster, and can trust it - whereas the Kukkiwon is a collective and you never know who approved the actual promotion.

 

[terryl965]

Personally, I would honor a certificate with Hwang Kee's signature before a certificate with a picture of the Kukkiwon on it because I know the lineage of the Grandmaster, and can trust it - whereas the Kukkiwon is a collective and you never know who approved the actual promotion.

Very true I would personally honor there first, I never understood how student of these great Master could turn there backs on them and say they mean nothing anymore.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Keep in mind though that the reason why the WTF and the Kukkiwon were headquartered in Korea was that it was felt (by both the Korean gov't as well as high ranking Korean masters) that the Headquarters of World Tae Kwon Do should be in Korea. Having gov't recognition of what you teach and do is important on many levels, because it was illegal to practice in Korea under the Japanese. Some people might disagree with the importance of having gov't recognition. But having recognition from the gov't and having the gov't control what is taught are different. The Korean gov't does not stipulate what the Kukkiwon teaches, it only recognizes and assists the Kukkiwon. Keep in mind, when the Kukkiwon and the WTF were having problems, the Korean gov't did not step in to intervene. It does not dictate, it only recognizes and assists.
Realize that the organizations founded by Choi, Hwang, Son etc. were/are private organizations and can be located wherever they want. The WTF and Kukkiwon, representing and symbolizing official Korean Tae Kwon Do, are headquartered in Korea to keep Korean ties. It is, after all, a martial art developed in Korea.