question on Olympic versus Tradition

[Han-Mi]

Sport or Olympic TKD is not entirely useless in a street fight. Imagine 2 guys about to fight, one is a bulky build and looks like hes about to tear the smaller, but still healthy lookin, guys head off, When the little guy breaks out and kicks stocky 5 times before he can say "what?". I train traditional Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do, and I dislike competing with olympic rules(I always get in trouble for puching). However, there is always a positive.

Traditional is better. That's my oppinion.

 

[JanneM]

Kukkiwon rank is recognized thoughout the world.

Yes, Kukkiwon Certification does have international recognition. However, a certificate from someone who has never seen the ability of the applicant does not seem to carry much weight to me!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

Hasent your master never seen your tecnick and still he has given you ranks???

(And by this I meen. Kukkiwon is only the place you confirm your grades. Your teacher/master is the one who gives then to you. expt above 6.dan)

 

[Andy Cap]

Hasent your master never seen your tecnick and still he has given you ranks???

(And by this I meen. Kukkiwon is only the place you confirm your grades. Your teacher/master is the one who gives then to you. expt above 6.dan)

Unfortunately I have to disagree with you. I have my 4th dan in TKD Moo Duk Kwan. My certificates were signed by Hwang Kee (founder of that Kwan). Now I train in a WTF school. My instructor informed me that as much as he wants to test me for 5th dan, it would not be a Kukkiwon certificate because Kukkiwon does not recognize certificates from other organizations above cho dan.

So, He wants to test me and will grant me my 5th dan if he sees fit, but the certificate will be a school certificate. Personally I could give to #$%# about the rank at this point, but I laugh at the Kukkiwon. They have lost the way. Their way is money and self glorification. Many of the masters in the Kukkiwon are Moo Duk Kwan masters, and to deny Hwang Kee's signature is to deny their own training. What a bunch of suits.

 

[JanneM]

Relax!

Kukkiwon has its own rules about granting dan grades. If you want Kukkiwon ceritifacte just aply on at a time it should tahe you around 10 years to get that Kukkiwon 5.dan (6yrs to 4.dan) THen you could really say that you are practisioner of taekwondo and a holder of Kukkiwon dan grade. If your teacher ahsent been willing to aply Kukkiwon certificate in a first place it is not the Kukkiwons fault. Or is it?
If you want to be recognised as taekwondo master (also on paper) in world wide please make a deal with your teacherto upgrade you dan status in Kukkiwon at the correct level also in Kukkiwon.
It wont happenf in an night, but hey why should you be any different that all other fools like us?

I want to make out a point at this moment. I do not think les of you if you don't have Kukkiwon diploma. I just think that you should have one if you are taekwondo practissioner.

 

[Andy Cap]

Relax!

Kukkiwon has its own rules about granting dan grades. If you want Kukkiwon ceritifacte just aply on at a time it should tahe you around 10 years to get that Kukkiwon 5.dan (6yrs to 4.dan) THen you could really say that you are practisioner of taekwondo and a holder of Kukkiwon dan grade. If your teacher ahsent been willing to aply Kukkiwon certificate in a first place it is not the Kukkiwons fault. Or is it?
If you want to be recognised as taekwondo master (also on paper) in world wide please make a deal with your teacherto upgrade you dan status in Kukkiwon at the correct level also in Kukkiwon.
It wont happenf in an night, but hey why should you be any different that all other fools like us?

I'm relaxed
As for the rest, well my instructor would gladly send my rank in, but it is clearly written in the Kukkiwon rules that they do not accept anything higher than cho dan from another organization. So, I have worked 27 years and have attained this rank, but it would mean little to the folks in the Kukkiwon because I did not get it from them. So, although I attained my rank from their instructor (Hwang Kee), they do not honor it. Doesn't that make you laugh even a little? As for my rank and waiting 10 years to attain its equal - well, I am in no rush to attain rank anywhere, or from anyone. I have achieved the "master" title, and to me that means I have a lot to worry about without worrying about organization acceptance. I have to live up to the title, and that is a most lofty goal indeed. So, please do not missread my comments and think I am upset about this. I am not. I do think it is a hoot that the Kukkiwon would be so presumptuous as to think they are the only organization that can teach Tae Kwon Do.

I want to make out a point at this moment. I do not think les of you if you don't have Kukkiwon diploma. I just think that you should have one if you are taekwondo practissioner.

Why? I have asked a few people why the Kukkiwon certificate is so important and all I have ever received for an answer is that they are the largest TKD organization. So, they are the largest, that does not mean to me that htey are the best, or necessarilly the definitive of what is right and wrong. In fact, based on most of what I know about Kukkiwon, I am less than impressed with their approach.

 

[Spookey]

AndyCap Sabum, TAEKWON!


SpookeY

 

[rainbows]

Bah, I hate when people just can't see that TKD is so much bigger than just the Kukkiwon and the Olympics...

 

[JanneM]

Why? I have asked a few people why the Kukkiwon certificate is so important and all I have ever received for an answer is that they are the largest TKD organization. So, they are the largest, that does not mean to me that htey are the best, or necessarilly the definitive of what is right and wrong. In fact, based on most of what I know about Kukkiwon, I am less than impressed with their approach.

I dont think that Kukkiwon is just the largest but I think it is the only real authority in taekwondo. GM Hwang Kee did not go with the Kukkiwon and did not join taekwondo. He build his own systen Tangsoodo/Subakhdo. If you have diploma from GB Hwang you might be training (IMO) tangsoodo. If you have been training taekwondo in Moodukkwan based school you should have Kukkiwon diploma because part of Moodukwan went with Kukkiwon and was and IS part of taekwondo but GM Hwang Kee said in very early days that this is not the way he wants to go so he has its own system. He was wise enough to call it Tangsoodo not taekwondo because clearly it is not taekwondo.

I hope you seemy point in this one...
(I might not be very clear because english is not my first language)

 

[JanneM]

Bah, I hate when people just can't see that TKD is so much bigger than just the Kukkiwon and the Olympics...

Taekwondo is something so mouch more than just Kukkiwon and WTF but however Kukkiwon is the organisation that tells us what taekwondo is and WTF is the organisation that tells how we should fight in competitions.
I cant se what is wrong with that...

 

[MichiganTKD]

Kukkiwon and the WTF are important for two major reasons:

1. The Kukkiwon is located in South Korea and is the Headquarters of the WTF. The Korean gov't recognizes only the WTF at this point. Therefore, by obtaining certification from the Kukkiwon, you obtain a certain amount of recognition from the home nation of Tae Kwon Do.
2. The WTF is the driving force behind Olympic Tae Kwon Do

Now having said that, I will also say that it is entirely possible that the Kukkiwon and WTF will find themselves increasingly fragmented and irrelevant. This will be for several reasons.

First, the original leaders of Tae Kwon Do in Korea are old and increasingly out of the picture. Woon Kyu Uhm is an exception, but he is also about 80 years old. Unlikely he will play an active role for too long.

Second, Many high ranking traditional instructors outside Korea, mine included, will distance themselves from the Kukkiwon and begin to chart their own courses without Kukkiwon input. That means they will test from within their organizations and issue gup and Dan ranks from within their organizations. Mine already does this. He is 9th Dan Kukkiwon, and for the past several years has issued all Dan certificates by his authority. He definitely is not deferring to the Kukkiwon as much as he used to, although our tests are still conducted in accordance with Kukkiwon policy.

Thirdly, with Dr. Kim out of the picture and the WTF overhauling itself and increasingly taking a second (or third) look at its future, I see more and more Instructors making their own decisions.

I think Tae Kwon Do is in for some big changes. What those changes are I honestly don't know, but changes are coming.

 

[rainbows]

Taekwondo is something so mouch more than just Kukkiwon and WTF but however Kukkiwon is the organisation that tells us what taekwondo is and WTF is the organisation that tells how we should fight in competitions.
I cant se what is wrong with that...

You also forget that not every practitioner of TKD is part of the WTF. What the ITF (all of them...) practises is pretty much the original TKD of the founder, General Choi Hong Hi. With the original Chang-Hon patterns and different sparring rules.

 

[Miles]

My point is reciprical...(ITF and WTF)...Either organization will grant a certificate up to the 3rd Degree based souly in the certification of the opposite organization!

Yes,there is a Kukkiwon promotional regulation about cross-ranking. I have never had any experience with it so I won't comment further.

I was being nice (and fair)!

OK, my bad!

Miles

 

[Andy Cap]

I dont think that Kukkiwon is just the largest but I think it is the only real authority in taekwondo.

Why? What is it about the Kukkiwon that makes you think they are the only real authority?

GM Hwang Kee did not go with the Kukkiwon and did not join taekwondo. He build his own systen Tangsoodo/Subakhdo. If you have diploma from GB Hwang you might be training (IMO) tangsoodo.

Well oddly enough GM Hwang Kee did put his name to TKD MDK cert's for a few years. I am not sure how that came about, but I know it to be the case.

If you have been training taekwondo in Moodukkwan based school you should have Kukkiwon diploma because part of Moodukwan went with Kukkiwon and was and IS part of taekwondo but GM Hwang Kee said in very early days that this is not the way he wants to go so he has its own system. He was wise enough to call it Tangsoodo not taekwondo because clearly it is not taekwondo.

True and not true. Hwang Kee did not go the route of Kukkiwon. He did not agree with it, and my understanding of the events was that Hwang Kee initially agreed to the Tae Kwon Do concept. However, after sometime he found that TKD was going to be govermnmentalized and commercialized. He wanted no part of it. There was still TKD MDK and some of those masters still went to Hwang Kee for their certificates. I do have TSD training - I started with TSD and then later studies TKD while still doing TSD. Very similar styles at the time. Both used Pyung Ahn Hyung (poomse) and both were supported by Hwang Kee and the Moo Duk Kwan.

I hope you seemy point in this one...
(I might not be very clear because english is not my first language)

I understand your point, and admire the fact that you speak and write more than 1 language.

I suppose that my point is this. You say that if I joined WTF TKD that it would take me 10 years to regain my rank and standing. To me that isn't so much of a big deal other than the insult it throws at my instructor and instructor's instructor. However, think on this...I started Tang soo Do in 1977, and have trained consistantly since. I started TKD in 1983. I hold 4th dans in both. If I were to come to your school and put on a cho dan belt, do you think you would really be able to instruct me completely as a 2nd dan should a cho dan? Logistically, most WTF 2nd dans have been in TKD for perhaps 5 years. I have been in Korean Martial arts for 28 years, and TKD specifically for 22 years. I try to be humble, honestly, and could do just fine in the back of the class. The concept itself is what bothers me. To think that Gen. Choi, Hwang Kee, Duk Sung Son, and the other founder's signatures and teaching mean nothing to the Kukkiwon, well this makes me think very little of the Kukkiwon myself.

 

[Miles]

Unfortunately I have to disagree with you. I have my 4th dan in TKD Moo Duk Kwan. My certificates were signed by Hwang Kee (founder of that Kwan).

Andy, did you mistype that? I have never heard of GM HWANG, Kee signing a Taekwondo dan rank certificate.

Now I train in a WTF school. My instructor informed me that as much as he wants to test me for 5th dan, it would not be a Kukkiwon certificate because Kukkiwon does not recognize certificates from other organizations above cho dan.

This is not entirely true. There is a Kukkiwon promotional regulation concerning recognizes certification from other organizations. I have never utilized this but believe it is primarily for ITF folks.

There is also a separate promotional regulation for skip-dans (for example, going from 1st to a 4th).

So, He wants to test me and will grant me my 5th dan if he sees fit, but the certificate will be a school certificate.

Many folks have both a school/Kwan certificate and a Kukkiwon certificate-not always at the same rank either. Depends on the organization from what I've seen. I personally don't issue any school certificate.

Personally I could give to #$%# about the rank at this point, but I laugh at the Kukkiwon. They have lost the way. Their way is money and self glorification. Many of the masters in the Kukkiwon are Moo Duk Kwan masters, and to deny Hwang Kee's signature is to deny their own training. What a bunch of suits.

You could not be further from the truth on this statement. I have never met more friendly, helpful folks than those at Kukkiwon. If I can help you understand this in any way, please feel free to PM me.

Miles

 

[Andy Cap]

Miles -

I am not saying that the people in the Kukkiwon are not nice or helpful. I am sure there are some really great people there. I am just trying to point out the arrogance displayed. For any organization, I repeat, ANY organization to say they are the definitive on TKD is arrogant. TKD is far larger than any one organization. There are too many facets and too much history for it all to be culminated in one building or under one umbrella.

The original TKD is far different than the Kukkiwon/WTF version, so this just makes me wonder how Kukkiwon ever came to teh conclusion that they were so important and knowledgable, when they don't teach what was originally labelled as TKD.

 

[Miles]

I am just trying to point out the arrogance displayed. For any organization, I repeat, ANY organization to say they are the definitive on TKD is arrogant. TKD is far larger than any one organization. There are too many facets and too much history for it all to be culminated in one building or under one umbrella.

I don't see the arrogance, but perhaps that is a matter of perspective? I think the Kukkiwon can and should be able to say what is Kukki-TKD. I also think the ITF can say what is ITF-TKD. Certainly everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Whether Taekwondo, as a martial art, can be "culminated in one building or under one umbrella" was the topic of the Standardization of TKD thread.

The original TKD is far different than the Kukkiwon/WTF version, so this just makes me wonder how Kukkiwon ever came to teh conclusion that they were so important and knowledgable, when they don't teach what was originally labelled as TKD.

Thanks for bringing the thread back on topic (though it was skimming the edges throughout the last few posts !

I think we both agree that TKD has evolved from the original art. I hope it continues to evolve as I see evolution as necessary to being alive and relevant. I also hope that there will always be folks working at Kukkiwon who are continuously studying ways to make Taekwondo better (and how to teach it!)

Miles

 

[Marginal]

Thing about evolution is, it doesn't produce a "better" product. It produces a product that survives in the niche it finds itself in.

 

[Andy Cap]

Thanks for bringing the thread back on topic (though it was skimming the edges throughout the last few posts !

I think we both agree that TKD has evolved from the original art. I hope it continues to evolve as I see evolution as necessary to being alive and relevant. I also hope that there will always be folks working at Kukkiwon who are continuously studying ways to make Taekwondo better (and how to teach it!)

Miles

I agree with you about the rest, but do you think Kukkiwon TKD is truly better than the TKD of 40 years ago? How so?

 

[JanneM]

You also forget that not every practitioner of TKD is part of the WTF. What the ITF (all of them...) practises is pretty much the original TKD of the founder, General Choi Hong Hi. With the original Chang-Hon patterns and different sparring rules.

No I dont forget that. I just forget top tell all the time that I am speaking about Kukki-taekwondo.

 

[JanneM]

Why? What is it about the Kukkiwon that makes you think they are the only real authority?

Do't you think that the authority that was given to Kukkiwon when it was established is still valid?

Well oddly enough GM Hwang Kee did put his name to TKD MDK cert's for a few years. I am not sure how that came about, but I know it to be the case.

Ok. I did not know that. But still I wonder why didn't your master aply Kukkiwon cert for you.

True and not true. Hwang Kee did not go the route of Kukkiwon. He did not agree with it, and my understanding of the events was that Hwang Kee initially agreed to the Tae Kwon Do concept. However, after sometime he found that TKD was going to be govermnmentalized and commercialized. He wanted no part of it. There was still TKD MDK and some of those masters still went to Hwang Kee for their certificates. I do have TSD training - I started with TSD and then later studies TKD while still doing TSD. Very similar styles at the time. Both used Pyung Ahn Hyung (poomse) and both were supported by Hwang Kee and the Moo Duk Kwan.

Thank for clearing that out for me.
See. I'm hear to learn.

I suppose that my point is this. You say that if I joined WTF TKD that it would take me 10 years to regain my rank and standing. To me that isn't so much of a big deal other than the insult it throws at my instructor and instructor's instructor.

I think olny insult in this matter is from your isntructor towards Kukkiwon and to you for not aplying an Kukkiwon diploma for you in the first place.

However, think on this...I started Tang soo Do in 1977, and have trained consistantly since. I started TKD in 1983. I hold 4th dans in both. If I were to come to your school and put on a cho dan belt, do you think you would really be able to instruct me completely as a 2nd dan should a cho dan? Logistically, most WTF 2nd dans have been in TKD for perhaps 5 years. I have been in Korean Martial arts for 28 years, and TKD specifically for 22 years.

Ofcourse I would rather have you as teaching me that otherwise. I apreciate your knowledge and the time you have spent with Taekwondo and Tangooso. I bow at your general direction.
Most WTF 2dans has been in TKD for about 5to7 years it took me 13 year to get here.
In Finland the way to dan gradings has been more difficult in past. These days the minimum times for dan testing is getting lover and I think that it is agood idea. Because ion Kukkiown 1.-3. dan are only practissioner level and 1.dan being still merely a beginner. Coloured belts have litle or none emphasis in here at the home land of our beloved art. But this is a whole different topic.

I try to be humble, honestly, and could do just fine in the back of the class. The concept itself is what bothers me. To think that Gen. Choi, Hwang Kee, Duk Sung Son, and the other founder's signatures and teaching mean nothing to the Kukkiwon, well this makes me think very little of the Kukkiwon myself.

All those finders agreed in the begining of the art that we all must accept only Kukkiwon dilpomas. Why should Kukkiwon make an objektion (is that the right word?) and now after decades accept diplomas that are from some other organisation than Kukkiwon? That is my question.

[huge IMO]If you practise and teach in Kukkiwon oriented school and you respect your students and you new teacher. I think you should update your rank in Kukkiwon too. It will take some time and it will cost you money but in my oppinion it would be worth it. Anyaway if you teach Kukkiwon oriented taekwondo and do not have Kukkiwon diploma and your students know that and it is ok for them. I see no harm in you not havin Kukkiwon diploma. BUt I can see no harm in you upgrading your rank in Kukkiwon. [/huge IMO]