Highest Ranked Non Korean in the world

[Laurentkd]

Has anyone ever thought there might be a reason the Koreans want to hold Dan ranking from non-Koreans. I find that without guidence and reminders that a Korean master is watching over you, non-Koreans seem to think that it means they are now allowed to promote when they want and how often they want.

That may be the case, but I know Koreans who do the same thing. There were some masters I knew and respected (I judged at their testings and tournaments) who I recently found out were claiming to be 5th, 6th, even 7th dan black belts, and in reality the highest ranking they had through Kukkiwon was 1st or 2nd degree. Now, I don't think a Kukkiwon certificate means everything, but it still makes you wonder...
Unfortunately I think that can happen with anyone, regardless of race.

And for the internationa comment it's always going to be hard to beat the home team at the home team's sport. Korean's are proud people and they want to win at their sport. If you think your going to be a Korean with a Korean official and head table thatwas probably Korean you have got to be crazy.

Really?! I participated in a forms division in a tournament while I was in Korea last summer. I placed 1st (against 6 other Koreans, 4 of them being guys) and I sometimes worry it was because I was the only one with blond hair! Although I DO have really good forms if I do say so myself!

 

[Brian S]

So either Gm. Sell fully deserves this rank according to Korean standards, in which case your comments about him are wide of the mark. Or he got rank he didn't deserve, by Korean standards, from the WTF/KKW ranking board which is the ultimate validation of all Korean-licensed dan ranking. What's the evidence that it was the latter, rather than the former?

I'm sure. The breaking of sandstone bircks is very impressive.

 

[exile]

I'm sure. The breaking of sandstone bircks is very impressive.

You're sure of what, exactly?

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that the test he was awarded his 9th dan on the basis of was breaking a stack of 10 bricks, sandstone or not, with an elbow strike, and that was it? Was the breaking part of the test at all? And if not, what's the connection? I'm sorry, but I don't see the relevance of your comment about breaking to Gm. Sell's 9th dan promotion in Korea (where I suspect an American flag wouldn't have been hanging on the wall during his test, eh? And where it's a good bet he wouldn't have had nine stripes on his belt during his promotion test for ninth dan? Like, almost certainly the photo of him breaking was taken in the US, after his promotion test, and not in Korea?)

Would you please indicate exactly why you think Gm. Sell didn't deserve the KKW ranking he got from the Korean promotions board that oversaw his test?

 

[Brian S]

Would you please indicate exactly why you think Gm. Sell didn't deserve the KKW ranking he got from the Korean promotions board that oversaw his test?

I guess I might explain it if I had said it,lol.

Why do you take this so personally?

The only thing I believe out of this whole think is that rank, no matter in what organization, is politically charged.

I don't like rank or superiority titles period. I'll never call anyone grandmaster,lol. I wonder where the term originated? Where was the first grandmaster? Soke?

I guess in a few years I want to be "grand poobah of all that I survey."

 

[exile]

I guess I might explain it if I had said it,lol.

Why do you take this so personally?

Brian, you misunderstand me. I don't take it personally at all. I don't have a horse in this race, I've no knowledge of Gm. Sell—he's nowhere close to my lineage in TKD—and I'm personally not dead keen, let's say, on the conflation of MAs with a religious ministry. But this thread started out with an OP which strongly suggested that Gm. Sell wasn't really up to 9th dan scratch, and your comments and Traditionalist's comments seem to line up pretty clearly on that side. Remember, this thread is about this particular individual and whether he's up to standard.

What bothers me is this: there are a lot of inflated ranks out there, and not just in TKD. No question; and there are plenty of legitimate questions about who actually is entitled to claim what rank. Self-awarded rank, you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours reciprocal promotions... all kinds of garbage along those lines. But in this case, we have as public a validation of high rank as you can get: the guy went to Korea, he tested in front of a Korean board, his rank was awarded with no reservations or fine print, and is a matter of public record... it just seems wrong to me to conflate his case with that of the others, because then you wind up blurring the distinction between the genuinely dubious cases , the ones the 'f' word (as in `f...-busting') might legitimately apply to, and cases where the thing seems as up-and-up as it can be. If you lose that distinction, then in the end, there's no difference between Ed Sell and Ashida Kim, which is exactly what the latter and his type would love to see.

The only thing I believe out of this whole think is that rank, no matter in what organization, is politically charged.

I don't like rank or superiority titles period. I'll never call anyone grandmaster,lol. I wonder where the term originated? Where was the first grandmaster? Soke?

I guess in a few years I want to be "grand poobah of all that I survey."

OK, fair enough, but isn't this a different issue? I mean, Traditionalist was contrasting non-Koreans with Koreans so far as rank goes; but if rank itself is suspect—and you could make a case for that; I wouldn't necessarily agree, but I can imagine it—then the argument that non-Koreans get high rank that they don't deserve as vs. Koreans who get relatively lower rank is pointless, because then none of 'em would deserve any rank at all, eh?

 

[Dave Leverich]

I smell Troll.
GM Sell, most definitely has earned everything he's been granted.
And no, he's not in my lineage.

 

[Brian S]

Who's the troll?

exile,

I wasn't referring to the topic at hand, sorry.

He tested for and was awarded the rank by the Koreans. I'm happy for him and his achievements,looks like he earned them. Definately not an Ashida Kim type.....sheesh....I was just point out my own dissatisfaction with rank and politics, different subject. Sorry to derail.

Nothing to see here folks!! Move along!!!

 

[exile]

Who's the troll?

exile,

I wasn't referring to the topic at hand, sorry.

He tested for and was awarded the rank by the Koreans. I'm happy for him and his achievements,looks like he earned them. Definately not an Ashida Kim type.....sheesh....I was just point out my own dissatisfaction with rank and politics, different subject. Sorry to derail.

Nothing to see here folks!! Move along!!!

I understand what you're getting at now, Brian. Not a problem. Context is everything....

The rank issue and what rank actually means is a whole thread topic in itself, actually. It's been discussed before... but it's a perennial favorite, because people seem to have strong feelings about it in both directions. Rank in the MAs is a complex thing, and it's true that very advanced rank in some arts is conferred for... how is it often put? ... service and commitment to the art, rather than as a severe physical test. I think I recall someone else with fairly advanced rank in TKD saying in some thread on ranking a while back that testing for fourth dan (or maybe it was fifth dan) was the most difficult in terms of physical skill demonstration; after that it's based more on intangibles.

 

[Last Fearner]

http://www.grandmasteredwardsell.com/


I met this guy a few years back- wasn't too impressed- is this legit?

Yes, Grandmaster Sell is very legit, and much more than that, if you take time to get to know him.

If the OP is still around, I might ask why were you not "impressed" upon meeting GM Sell? First impressions are often misleading!

I first met GM Edward Sell in 1978. I was an instructor in the ATA, which was strongly active in my state of Michigan at that time. GM Haeng Ung Lee had just taken over the ATA as President, and appointed to Vice-President, Master Robert Allemier (a 4th Dan then, now 8th Dan). He was the highest ranking American in the ATA at that time, who ran two schools in Lansing, Michigan.

Ed Sell was a 6th Dan then, and was the first non-Asian to reach 4th Dan and receive the title of "Master" from his Chung Do Kwan teacher, GM Hae Man Park. I attended one of then "Master" Sell's tournaments where I first met Bill Wallace too. Edward Sell was not affiliated with the ATA as my instructor and I were, but we all called him "Master Sell" out of respect for his authentic background, years of teaching, and skills in the art (besides, he out-ranked all of us!). I recall that one of my instructor's students, who was a 3rd Dan and ran his own school, refused to call Edward Sell "Master Sell," because he was not in the ATA and was not in our lineage (I always thought that was rather petty.)

I admit that in those early days, "Master Sell" was a bit abrasive sometimes, and I didn't care for some of what appeared to me to be an inflated ego. Years later, I read an article in TKD times, where GM Sell talked about his past, and admitted that he acted like a jerk sometimes in his earlier days, but he described the transformation that occurred in his life as he became a born-again Christian.

After having taken a different road for a number of years, I rejoined with my original instructor in 2000, who happened to have crossed paths with GM Sell, and joined up with the USCDKA several years earlier (now he is 8th Dan). So, I joined as well, and have talked with GM Sell, and trained at seminars with him, his wife, GM Brenda Sell (Kukkiwon 8th Dan) and GM Sell's teacher, GM Hae Man Park. I have been very pleased with the organization, and impressed with the way GM Sell runs it. There is always room for improvement, and GM Sell is constantly seeking the input of his organization's Black Belts and instructors, but he is one heck of a charismatic, passionate, and very highly legitimate leader, and Taekwondo Grandmaster - in my opinion.

It is difficult to judge a person unless you have walked a mile in his shoes, and I find many people judge others without even really knowing them (some judge me without ever having met me - - what a shame!) GM Sell has done the work - blood, sweat, and tears - over the past 40 years, and I don't know of many in Taekwondo who could have walked in his shoes and been successful. He admits that he "toots his own horn" and that can rub some people the wrong way, but I wasn't there at the Chung Do Kwan Dojang in Korea in 1960s so I am grateful, and humbled to hear him tell of his exploits.


Just as a side-note, GM Sell first tested for, and attained the 9th Dan in 1997 from his legitimate Kwan lineage - the Chung Do Kwan. Therefore, he already was a "9th Dan" when he tested in September of 2001 at the Kukkiwon for official recognition of the rank by Kukkiwon standards. The link provided by the OP appears to be an old one. There is more information about Sr. GM Ed Sell, and his wife, GM Brenda Sell at the official website here:

http://www.uscdka.com/TheFounders.aspx

I always thought that students call the GM a GM
the Gm does not- But what do I know?

A "Grandmaster" is a title which describes a position of authority, responsibility, and expertise when applied correctly to someone who deserves it. A doctor might introduce himself as "Dr. Jones," for example, because that's what he is - a doctor. Grandmaster is another name for the Korean "Kwanjangnim." The Kwanjang is the leader of a Kwan - the one who guides the Masters, Instructors, and students within the Kwan. GM Sell is most certainly a legitimate Kwanjangnim.

I think that the article written on this page best describes the journey that GM Edward Sell has undergone, and how he feels about being a "servant" as a Grandmaster.

http://www.uscdka.com/articles/WhatIsKwanJang.aspx

Respectfully,
Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart
6th Dan USCDKA

 

[YoungMan]

Is Edward Sell a legitimate 9th Dan? I imagine he is. That's what all the articles in TKD TImes say anyway.
However, my Instructor knew Sell back in the day, and based on his accounts, Sell is not exactly the saint everyone thinks he is. I'll leave it at that, and you can draw your own conclusion.
BTW, I remember reading an article years ago that told of Sell's 17 year old son (I think it was son) judging as a Master Instructor. It was definitely a member of Sell's family.

 

[exile]

Is Edward Sell a legitimate 9th Dan? I imagine he is. That's what all the articles in TKD TImes say anyway.
However, my Instructor knew Sell back in the day, and based on his accounts, Sell is not exactly the saint everyone thinks he is. I'll leave it at that, and you can draw your own conclusion.
BTW, I remember reading an article years ago that told of Sell's 17 year old son (I think it was son) judging as a Master Instructor. It was definitely a member of Sell's family.

But then, very few of us are saints, eh? Anyone who is disappointed because someone else isn't a saint is going to be pretty disappointed throughout their life...

 

[YoungMan]

I was told of confrontations that involved my Instructor and Sell in front of GGM Uhm. These confrontations are one factor that ultimately led to Sell relocating to Florida.
Ah, politics

 

[terryl965]

You know at the USTU now The USAT there was a 12 degree BB in TKD and he was proud of it wear his belt and everything, So since I saw him he must be the Highest non or Korean in the world.

 

[exile]

I was told of confrontations that involved my Instructor and Sell in front of GGM Uhm. These confrontations are one factor that ultimately led to Sell relocating to Florida.
Ah, politics

I don't know if politics plays a larger part in the 'secret life' of the MAs more than it does in most other parts of the world.... but it definitely appears that way.

 

[terryl965]

I don't know if politics plays a larger part in the 'secret life' of the MAs more than it does in most other parts of the world.... but it definitely appears that way.

Yes it does