Help convince me to chun.

[PiedmontChun]

Thanks for the reply. I enjoyed it a lot. I can definitely see how gloves would hamper a lot of WC techniques.

In a combat situation are you supposed to square off with an opponent? No, right? I've heard people criticize WC for this but every sparring video(and every WC-centric king fu movie I've seen haha) they do not do this.

Do you have any advice at all on what to look for when visiting/picking a school?

Thanks again.

Facing the opponent gives you equal use of both hands, so its optimal. Obviously to be mobile, you end up with a lead leg / rear leg type stance, but we strive to still face the opponent square which requires turning at the waist. The Chum Kiu (second) form emphasizes (among many things) taking that stationary stance from SLT and advancing or turning it while keeping it stable with the weight sunk, as well as generating power from the hips. WC stance / footwork is one of the things where it might be counter intuitive in a competition or ring atmosphere where you have fighters dancing / chasing each other around, but it makes sense when you assume you are being attacked and need to be as stable as possible while able to yield.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Do you have any advice at all on what to look for when visiting/picking a school?

Thanks again.

Where are you located?

 

[guy b.]

Where are you located?

Bullshido forum I would guess

 

[Marnetmar]

Hey! Thanks for this excellent post! This is exactly what I was looking for and thank you for addressing the questions individually, I know it was a lot to ask at once.

Do you practice wing Chun? If so, do you cross train any other systems? How long have you practiced WC? I'm curious because you seem to agree with a lot of the assertions but also give a fair representation to why they are the way they are.

I never doubted WC could be effective. My concern was a) how long it would take to attain a basic proficiency b) if it were ideally suited towards certain people (lightweight, short, non-muscular, etc), or If it could easily work for anyone. c) if it took MORE personal evaluation than other systems. As in "this technique doesn't work for me, I'll drop it and add this".

Finally, what criteria would you look for in selecting a school? You mentioned a list of guys that are advancing the art, what are they doing that I should look for?

Thanks again for the excellent response.

Happy to help. WC is my primary art, and I've been practicing it and Northern Shaolin for around 3.5 years. The secret is simply being open-minded and seeking to separate dogma from reality, which is harder for some than others.

As for your concerns,

A: Depends on the school and how they train. Some WC guys can hold their own in a street fight after three months. Others train for 20 years and can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

B: It's hard to say, really. Folks like Hawkins Cheung (skinny and barely 5 foot) are able to control people like Robert Chu (6 foot and heavy) very easily, but people who have achieved that kind of proficiency are few and far between. In fact, Hawkins Cheung is the only one that I know of (not a Hawkins Cheung stylist by the way).

I'd say that from a strictly practical perspective, it can work for anyone, but someone who is smaller will have to train much harder than a WC guy who's bigger (which, knowing most WC schools, isn't very hard to do. I'm saying this as the resident shortie) to be able to hold his own. WC isn't a magical art, and size makes a difference just as it does in any other style.

C: Once again, hard to say. If you're learning from someone who knows how to apply the art practically, you'll have to do less personal evaluation than someone who's learning from the mckwoon down the street.

As for what to look for in a school and what the guys I mentioned have in common, it really just comes down to the focus on practical application. If you find yourself going "how in the hell could this possibly work" 24/7, you're at the wrong school.

 

[avengingbeagle]

Where are you located?

Hampton roads area. There are a few schools around here. I've already got one in mind but I'll check them all out to see what's up.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Hampton roads area. There are a few schools around here. I've already got one in mind but I'll check them all out to see what's up.

I'm not so familiar with that area, but from a quick google search it looks like a couple people who learned under Duncan Leung are in the area, Lo Man Kam Wing Chun Kung Fu Association is in Virginia Beach and Wing Chun Kung Fu Academy, Inc. in Norfolk, both associated with Duncan Leung. I'm nostly only had contact with people in the Leung Ting lineage or offshoots, but I know Duncan Leung is highly regarded.

 

[guy b.]

Did you manage to go to any wing chun class yet?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Keep us posted on what you decide

 

[avengingbeagle]

Yep! Thanks again to everyone who took the time to answer my questions. You've definitely lived up to the title of "friendly martial arts community".

 

[logjthanhlong]

Getting Started with Wing Chun Training, watch here: Wingchun

 

[BamBamx8]

OK, this will be a pretty long post. I will try to be specific, clear and concise. I think it will be worthwhile for myself and others like me, who are interested in wing chun but are having second doubts.

Let me start by explaining my interest in practicing Wing Chun.

1. Health & fitness - I'm looking for a hobby I can practice regularly that will help keep me in shape and up/off the couch.

2. Kung fu cinema freak - I have always loved martial arts movies. I've seen hundreds of classic Shaw Bros, Golden Harvest, independent and modern kung fu flicks. I realize there isn't a lot of Wing Chun in these movies(I'd actually probably do Hung Gar if it were near me) but that's not important. I've developed a deep appreciation and interest in Chinese culture because of this and this is a way to bridge the gap. I should state though: I'm well aware that they are just movies and not representative of reality. I still think they're awesome though! (Bonus points if anyone correlates this with my user name).

3. Self-Defense - This is actually not so important to me. I'm 30 years old and I've never been in any fights. I'm good at diffusing turbulent situations and have no problem looking like a "pussy" if it means avoiding a conflict. HOWEVER: If I'm going to invest a lot of time training in a "martial art", I expect it to pay some dividends in this area. It's also a nice insurance policy in the event that something unavoidable happens.

4. Longevity - I would like to engage in something I can practice as long as I'd like and not have to worry about excessive injury, brain trauma, Body breaking down, etc.

5. Something I can practice alone - although I plan on making classes regularly, I don't like the idea of being dependent on them. I was originally set on taking BJJ but I don't like the idea of needing someone to practice with. I've got bags/pads/etc at home and can always practice forms alone.

So far, Wing Chun seems to tick all the boxes. I had pretty much convinced myself to sign up until spending all day yesterday reading threads on bullshido...

In addition to being so persistent and savage in their critique of wing chun, a lot of the arguments seemed to resonate with me. Most prominently:

1. No "proof" of effectiveness - why are there little to no videos of guys using wing chun techniques to win or even be competitive fighting against other styles while executing what they practice/teach. Why are there little to no WC practicioners in MMA? Where are the full contact WC tournaments that don't end up looking like poor kickboxing matches?

2. Lack of sparring - It seems the vast majority of gyms are not focused on sparring, if they include it in the curriculum at all. Is it even debatable that you don't have to fight to learn how to fight? I don't think so. It seems a lot of the gyms that do spar are doing it infrequently and without full contact, no head punching, etc.

3. Forms: Are they worth the focus they seem to be given? - "siu lim tao is the basis of everything, it's all there". I hear this a lot and I see how it works but is it time efficient? Would I not be better off practicing my bong sau against a live opponent? Etc. Why not get straight to the matter instead of these esoteric forms? What's the advantage?

4. "He does this, I do this"! - We all know the videos. I understand the purpose of drilling the technique before you try to implement it against an opponent(to make sure form is correct and what not) . There just seems to be soooo much of this. What's worse is the guy who you're reacting to is usually throwing some half hearted punch, with poor/unrealistic technique.

5. Is the system fundamentally flawed? - Sure, a lot of Wing Chun sounds nice in theory but does it work in practice? If it does; is this really the easiest/most effective means to the end?

A) It's advertised as being simplified, stripped down, efficient, etc. If that's true a person with 6 months training should be equal to or greater than a boxer with 6 months training(provided similar physique, weight, etc). However, the opposite seems to be true.

B) Not putting any shoulder or hips into punches - Why does seemingly every other system advise the opposite of this? I'm not saying it doesn't work but again: is this really the quickest/most efficient way of doing things?

C) Short range/Infighting - again sounds great but why do we never see WC guys close the gap and get in close against boxers and the like?

D) Trapping/blocking - Even the critics admit some WC trapping techniques seem effective but is there an unrealistic emphasis placed on it? What about the blocking component? This is perhaps most troubling/counterintuitive to me: the idea is to stand within a boxers preferred range(unless/until the gap is bridged) and parry all their shots right? Would it not be easier/more efficient to stay out of range and/or move out of the way, waiting for an opportunity to move within your preferred range? It seems the more shots you take, the more likely it becomes one gets through to you.

E) "Complete system" - I know there are elements of clinching, takedowns and grappling but unless you can stuff a wrestler, stay alive on the ground with a BJJ guy(at least until you can get back up) or shed a Muay Thai clinch, then I'm sorry... It's just not. I'm fine with cross training some BJJ to supplement the Chun, let's just call a spade a spade.

6. "You never see real Wing Chun because it's too deadly, man" - I'm not really gonna touch on this but suffice to say: I'm shocked at how much this comes up as a serious response. I think anyone being objective knows that BJJ could be just as deadly, along with judo, Muay Thai, etc. These martial arts were all adapted to their current sport forms. Wing Chun could do the same.

7. Lineage wars/hero worship/politics/infighting - This is obviously not unique to Wing Chun but it seems to be pretty exaggerated here. I guess this is a minor gripe but it's worth a mention. As an outsider looking in, it was so prevalent it became confusing. Not really all that appealing to someone looking to get involved.

Just to be clear: I'm no fighting expert. These are just things I've heard over and over that make sense to me. I'm not trying to bash WC, I'm just looking for some level headed, objective answers. As I stated before: I WANT to love wing Chun, I really do. I'm just naturally skeptic and I have a hard time taking things at face value. As stated before, if I put the work in I want to get something worthwhile out.

Sorry for the length! I'm sure this is boring/redundant and you've heard and answered it all before but I appreciate your insight! Thank you very much!

OK, this will be a pretty long post. I will try to be specific, clear and concise. I think it will be worthwhile for myself and others like me, who are interested in wing chun but are having second doubts.

Let me start by explaining my interest in practicing Wing Chun.

1. Health & fitness - I'm looking for a hobby I can practice regularly that will help keep me in shape and up/off the couch.

2. Kung fu cinema freak - I have always loved martial arts movies. I've seen hundreds of classic Shaw Bros, Golden Harvest, independent and modern kung fu flicks. I realize there isn't a lot of Wing Chun in these movies(I'd actually probably do Hung Gar if it were near me) but that's not important. I've developed a deep appreciation and interest in Chinese culture because of this and this is a way to bridge the gap. I should state though: I'm well aware that they are just movies and not representative of reality. I still think they're awesome though! (Bonus points if anyone correlates this with my user name).

3. Self-Defense - This is actually not so important to me. I'm 30 years old and I've never been in any fights. I'm good at diffusing turbulent situations and have no problem looking like a "pussy" if it means avoiding a conflict. HOWEVER: If I'm going to invest a lot of time training in a "martial art", I expect it to pay some dividends in this area. It's also a nice insurance policy in the event that something unavoidable happens.

4. Longevity - I would like to engage in something I can practice as long as I'd like and not have to worry about excessive injury, brain trauma, Body breaking down, etc.

5. Something I can practice alone - although I plan on making classes regularly, I don't like the idea of being dependent on them. I was originally set on taking BJJ but I don't like the idea of needing someone to practice with. I've got bags/pads/etc at home and can always practice forms alone.

So far, Wing Chun seems to tick all the boxes. I had pretty much convinced myself to sign up until spending all day yesterday reading threads on bullshido...

In addition to being so persistent and savage in their critique of wing chun, a lot of the arguments seemed to resonate with me. Most prominently:

1. No "proof" of effectiveness - why are there little to no videos of guys using wing chun techniques to win or even be competitive fighting against other styles while executing what they practice/teach. Why are there little to no WC practicioners in MMA? Where are the full contact WC tournaments that don't end up looking like poor kickboxing matches?

2. Lack of sparring - It seems the vast majority of gyms are not focused on sparring, if they include it in the curriculum at all. Is it even debatable that you don't have to fight to learn how to fight? I don't think so. It seems a lot of the gyms that do spar are doing it infrequently and without full contact, no head punching, etc.

3. Forms: Are they worth the focus they seem to be given? - "siu lim tao is the basis of everything, it's all there". I hear this a lot and I see how it works but is it time efficient? Would I not be better off practicing my bong sau against a live opponent? Etc. Why not get straight to the matter instead of these esoteric forms? What's the advantage?

4. "He does this, I do this"! - We all know the videos. I understand the purpose of drilling the technique before you try to implement it against an opponent(to make sure form is correct and what not) . There just seems to be soooo much of this. What's worse is the guy who you're reacting to is usually throwing some half hearted punch, with poor/unrealistic technique.

5. Is the system fundamentally flawed? - Sure, a lot of Wing Chun sounds nice in theory but does it work in practice? If it does; is this really the easiest/most effective means to the end?

A) It's advertised as being simplified, stripped down, efficient, etc. If that's true a person with 6 months training should be equal to or greater than a boxer with 6 months training(provided similar physique, weight, etc). However, the opposite seems to be true.

B) Not putting any shoulder or hips into punches - Why does seemingly every other system advise the opposite of this? I'm not saying it doesn't work but again: is this really the quickest/most efficient way of doing things?

C) Short range/Infighting - again sounds great but why do we never see WC guys close the gap and get in close against boxers and the like?

D) Trapping/blocking - Even the critics admit some WC trapping techniques seem effective but is there an unrealistic emphasis placed on it? What about the blocking component? This is perhaps most troubling/counterintuitive to me: the idea is to stand within a boxers preferred range(unless/until the gap is bridged) and parry all their shots right? Would it not be easier/more efficient to stay out of range and/or move out of the way, waiting for an opportunity to move within your preferred range? It seems the more shots you take, the more likely it becomes one gets through to you.

E) "Complete system" - I know there are elements of clinching, takedowns and grappling but unless you can stuff a wrestler, stay alive on the ground with a BJJ guy(at least until you can get back up) or shed a Muay Thai clinch, then I'm sorry... It's just not. I'm fine with cross training some BJJ to supplement the Chun, let's just call a spade a spade.

6. "You never see real Wing Chun because it's too deadly, man" - I'm not really gonna touch on this but suffice to say: I'm shocked at how much this comes up as a serious response. I think anyone being objective knows that BJJ could be just as deadly, along with judo, Muay Thai, etc. These martial arts were all adapted to their current sport forms. Wing Chun could do the same.

7. Lineage wars/hero worship/politics/infighting - This is obviously not unique to Wing Chun but it seems to be pretty exaggerated here. I guess this is a minor gripe but it's worth a mention. As an outsider looking in, it was so prevalent it became confusing. Not really all that appealing to someone looking to get involved.

Just to be clear: I'm no fighting expert. These are just things I've heard over and over that make sense to me. I'm not trying to bash WC, I'm just looking for some level headed, objective answers. As I stated before: I WANT to love wing Chun, I really do. I'm just naturally skeptic and I have a hard time taking things at face value. As stated before, if I put the work in I want to get something worthwhile out.

Sorry for the length! I'm sure this is boring/redundant and you've heard and answered it all before but I appreciate your insight! Thank you very much!

I'm about to start taking wing chun in starting the 2 or 3 of the new year.I was very interested in Muay Thai but the coach did'nt want me to spar.we are of a like mind when you said if you don't spar how will you know if you can fight.I'm taking wing chun for something to do and every little bit helps.Ask up front if you will be sparrinf and if you get a long answer with a bunch of ifs and buts don't go there.I also have seen many home practice videos on utube and I've already started with them just to get the feel.Give it 6 months and you can take what you learn to another class.You can never know too much.Good luck.

 

[BamBamx8]

Why are you so worried about if I do decide to do WC? I have plenty of reasons(quite a few covered in the OP).

I take it from your avatar that you're a grappler? If/when I do eventually get into BJJ the Machado school was already #1 on my list. Thanks though

I know the guy that runs that school.Its a very good school with a great teacher.Try it!

 

[Bkouba]

Pretty much what everyone else has said, get out there and train! Your concerns are valid of course and if anyone has a problem questioning the validity of what they do that usually indicates something. A big reason people don't question BJJ for example is its proven success against trained opponents ect. But, that doesn't mean you should disregard WC. I never gave it a thought until I trained with Alan orr, at first I only trained wrestling and BJJ and skipped WC class haha. I have seen rubbish BJJ and WC so it really depends on the school and yourself really. Don't lose that inquisitive nature though, it's one of the refreshing aspects of teaching kids. If they see some hokey ******** they'll call you on it. As far as longevity goes it doesn't really matter what you train as long as your smart about it. Focus on building skills and sparring/rolling with people who are trying to help better eachother. Try not limit yourself you one Martial art or at least find other clubs to train with, my brother trains western boxing and it's always cool to spar against him seeing what works and doesn't. That really is the only way you can be assured what your learning has any merit. And of course have fun!!

 

[Chester Wright]

Not sure if you decided on a school yet or not, but I would like to invite you to come to try our dojo in Virginia Beach, we are located off of Indian River and Kempsville. We are a Jeet Kune Do school, however Sifu Barry (Head Instructor) trained in Wing Chun under Duncan Leung. He is also an 8th degree black belt in Kenpo Karate under Al Tracy and a Black Belt in BJJ under Mike Bejoc and Todd Lawrence, he is also a Senior Full Instructor under Paul Vunak. I know its not full blown Wing Chun but we work all ranges of combat including lots of trapping.

 

[ShortBridge]

I have a lot of respect for Gordon Lu

WING CHUN KUNG FU VIRGINIA BEACH

 

[Zeny]

Personally i think wc is a good system, is fun and easy to learn and definitely works if you practise it correctly. I dabbled in wc for a couple years before switching to taichi as my primary art, so i have some insight, albeit limited, into wc.

Firstly the forms and techniques are well documented and you should not have any trouble learning the correct ones or finding a teacher that is not bs.

Secondly once the techniques are learnt you have to unlearn them. Forget their names and learn to make them a natural and instinctive movement of your body. The techniques are not yours unless you can use them without thought. At this stage, focus on relaxing / stretching your body in order to improve your speed, stamina, touch sensitivity, force, reflex and range of movement.

Thirdly, condition your limbs, for eg by hitting sand bags with different parts of your arm. You need to be able to hit and take hits to your arms and legs without reeling in pain.

Finally, do proper sparring, not merely chi sau. Get some body pads and fight! You will never be an accomplished pilot until you've actually flown a real plane for thousands of hours. Training in a flight simulator is not the same as flying a real plane.

Many students get so obsessed by the techniques that they get stuck at the first stage. If you don't complete all 4 stages, don't even dream of using wc (or any other self defence art) in a real fight.

I have never gotten into a real fight my whole life but i have a martial arts teacher who competed in those chinese sparring matches (lei tai) for many years. During their 20s their training is extreme, they would train palm strikes on sand bags (up to a thousand hits a day) for years, then use secret medicines to treat their hands so that they don't permanently damage their hands through such vigorous training. If their single palm strike does not KO their opponent they treat that as a personal loss. How do you go against someone like that if you only play around with techniques and sticky hands?

Proper chinese martials arts is not for show, if is for killing your opponent or breaking their limbs. It is not meant to be fun, a hobby, or a scientific study into body mechanics, although it has turned into these things in modern days. And i'm perfectly ok with that.