Help convince me to chun.

[avengingbeagle]

OK, this will be a pretty long post. I will try to be specific, clear and concise. I think it will be worthwhile for myself and others like me, who are interested in wing chun but are having second doubts.

Let me start by explaining my interest in practicing Wing Chun.

1. Health & fitness - I'm looking for a hobby I can practice regularly that will help keep me in shape and up/off the couch.

2. Kung fu cinema freak - I have always loved martial arts movies. I've seen hundreds of classic Shaw Bros, Golden Harvest, independent and modern kung fu flicks. I realize there isn't a lot of Wing Chun in these movies(I'd actually probably do Hung Gar if it were near me) but that's not important. I've developed a deep appreciation and interest in Chinese culture because of this and this is a way to bridge the gap. I should state though: I'm well aware that they are just movies and not representative of reality. I still think they're awesome though! (Bonus points if anyone correlates this with my user name).

3. Self-Defense - This is actually not so important to me. I'm 30 years old and I've never been in any fights. I'm good at diffusing turbulent situations and have no problem looking like a "pussy" if it means avoiding a conflict. HOWEVER: If I'm going to invest a lot of time training in a "martial art", I expect it to pay some dividends in this area. It's also a nice insurance policy in the event that something unavoidable happens.

4. Longevity - I would like to engage in something I can practice as long as I'd like and not have to worry about excessive injury, brain trauma, Body breaking down, etc.

5. Something I can practice alone - although I plan on making classes regularly, I don't like the idea of being dependent on them. I was originally set on taking BJJ but I don't like the idea of needing someone to practice with. I've got bags/pads/etc at home and can always practice forms alone.

So far, Wing Chun seems to tick all the boxes. I had pretty much convinced myself to sign up until spending all day yesterday reading threads on bullshido...

In addition to being so persistent and savage in their critique of wing chun, a lot of the arguments seemed to resonate with me. Most prominently:

1. No "proof" of effectiveness - why are there little to no videos of guys using wing chun techniques to win or even be competitive fighting against other styles while executing what they practice/teach. Why are there little to no WC practicioners in MMA? Where are the full contact WC tournaments that don't end up looking like poor kickboxing matches?

2. Lack of sparring - It seems the vast majority of gyms are not focused on sparring, if they include it in the curriculum at all. Is it even debatable that you don't have to fight to learn how to fight? I don't think so. It seems a lot of the gyms that do spar are doing it infrequently and without full contact, no head punching, etc.

3. Forms: Are they worth the focus they seem to be given? - "siu lim tao is the basis of everything, it's all there". I hear this a lot and I see how it works but is it time efficient? Would I not be better off practicing my bong sau against a live opponent? Etc. Why not get straight to the matter instead of these esoteric forms? What's the advantage?

4. "He does this, I do this"! - We all know the videos. I understand the purpose of drilling the technique before you try to implement it against an opponent(to make sure form is correct and what not) . There just seems to be soooo much of this. What's worse is the guy who you're reacting to is usually throwing some half hearted punch, with poor/unrealistic technique.

5. Is the system fundamentally flawed? - Sure, a lot of Wing Chun sounds nice in theory but does it work in practice? If it does; is this really the easiest/most effective means to the end?

A) It's advertised as being simplified, stripped down, efficient, etc. If that's true a person with 6 months training should be equal to or greater than a boxer with 6 months training(provided similar physique, weight, etc). However, the opposite seems to be true.

B) Not putting any shoulder or hips into punches - Why does seemingly every other system advise the opposite of this? I'm not saying it doesn't work but again: is this really the quickest/most efficient way of doing things?

C) Short range/Infighting - again sounds great but why do we never see WC guys close the gap and get in close against boxers and the like?

D) Trapping/blocking - Even the critics admit some WC trapping techniques seem effective but is there an unrealistic emphasis placed on it? What about the blocking component? This is perhaps most troubling/counterintuitive to me: the idea is to stand within a boxers preferred range(unless/until the gap is bridged) and parry all their shots right? Would it not be easier/more efficient to stay out of range and/or move out of the way, waiting for an opportunity to move within your preferred range? It seems the more shots you take, the more likely it becomes one gets through to you.

E) "Complete system" - I know there are elements of clinching, takedowns and grappling but unless you can stuff a wrestler, stay alive on the ground with a BJJ guy(at least until you can get back up) or shed a Muay Thai clinch, then I'm sorry... It's just not. I'm fine with cross training some BJJ to supplement the Chun, let's just call a spade a spade.

6. "You never see real Wing Chun because it's too deadly, man" - I'm not really gonna touch on this but suffice to say: I'm shocked at how much this comes up as a serious response. I think anyone being objective knows that BJJ could be just as deadly, along with judo, Muay Thai, etc. These martial arts were all adapted to their current sport forms. Wing Chun could do the same.

7. Lineage wars/hero worship/politics/infighting - This is obviously not unique to Wing Chun but it seems to be pretty exaggerated here. I guess this is a minor gripe but it's worth a mention. As an outsider looking in, it was so prevalent it became confusing. Not really all that appealing to someone looking to get involved.

Just to be clear: I'm no fighting expert. These are just things I've heard over and over that make sense to me. I'm not trying to bash WC, I'm just looking for some level headed, objective answers. As I stated before: I WANT to love wing Chun, I really do. I'm just naturally skeptic and I have a hard time taking things at face value. As stated before, if I put the work in I want to get something worthwhile out.

Sorry for the length! I'm sure this is boring/redundant and you've heard and answered it all before but I appreciate your insight! Thank you very much!

 

[Tez3]

Do you go on political sites and read all the arguments between all the different political views? If you did would they change your mind about your own political views that you have formed from your own thinking and experience just because people are arguing? If the answer is no, I wouldn't go on these sites and no I wouldn't let a bunch of strangers who like insulting each other change my views then you have your answer.
I would say ignore everything you have read on that site, find somewhere you like training and do it. As for videos, they prove nothing and never will. Whatever you train, if you train properly you will get out of it far more than you imagine. The training will speak for itself. You will either enjoy it or not, you may find another style you like better but nothing will beat going to a place and actually trying it out, ignore the arguments on that site, most don't train anything anyway. Just train

 

[geezer]

I'd answer every point, but WC is, after all, said to be "the lazy man's art" due to it's emphasis on efficiency. I'm way too lazy to go to all that trouble. Besides, why take anybody else's word as gospel? If you're really interested, take WC for a solid 6 months, train hard and then answer the questions yourself. It's only 6 months, so what have you got to lose?

 

[Hanzou]

Honestly, based on your post I think you'd be better served taking Muay Thai, or a similar striking MA style that has strong roots in MMA. It doesn't seem that WC would be a great fit for you if you're having all of these concerns BEFORE you take a class.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Honestly, based on your post I think you'd be better served taking Muay Thai, or a similar striking MA style that has strong roots in MMA. It doesn't seem that WC would be a great fit for you if you're having all of these concerns BEFORE you take a class.

I will go out back and shoot myself in the foot then in the face after I make this comment. I agree with Hanzou on this one. I was going to reply to the long list of concerns but he's right. If you are having all of these concerns before you take the class then it's not he right one for you. You'll just end up training in a system that you don't fully trust.

I don't know where you live but if there is a Jow Ga school near you then definitely do that. Any concerns that you may have will be gone after the first 2 classes. Forms are important in kung fu because it's part of the conditioning that helps build cardiovascular endurance, muscle strength, and muscle endurance. It also serves as a library of techniques.

But whatever you decide to do, you'll need to be able to trust enough in that system to the point where you aren't going to be bailing out of the techniques. Most kung fu schools look like basic kickboxing because the student doesn't spend time actually trying to use the techniques when sparring. That's says more about the student than it does about the fighting system. We had a student that only did boxing when it came to sparring even though he knew the techniques. I'm actually able to use kung fu techniques I've learned. So just because you see someone revert to basic kickboxing doesn't mean that the kung fu system is no good. It usually just means the student doesn't trust the system enough to fight with. You'll end up the same way if you don't trust the fighting system that you are training in. Provided that it's not a Mcdojo, avoid those at all costs.

 

[guy b.]

My advice is don't do a martial art; you don't have the perseverance for it and you will probably make excuses and quit very quickly. If you must do something then bjj is probably much more suited to someone of such a fragile mindset than wing chun. I advise you to either do nothing or do bjj. Don't do wing chun. Also don't read bullshido, it is filled with dishonest fantasists who like to criticise.

 

[avengingbeagle]

My advice is don't do a martial art; you don't have the perseverance for it and you will probably make excuses and quit very quickly. If you must do something then bjj is probably much more suited to someone of such a fragile mindset than wing chun. I advise you to either do nothing or do bjj. Don't do wing chun. Also don't read bullshido, it is filled with dishonest fantasists who like to criticise.

Haha! Come on man, don't be a silly rabbit. I didn't come here to throw mud or start a flame war. I asked because they're valid questions that I'm interested in hearing answered from the people that DO wing chun.

Your "do nothing or do BJJ" comment makes absolutely no sense. I guess you're implying BJJ is for "fragile minds". Cool. I'm glad that makes you feel good but we know that it's not true.

I know nothing about bullshido(way to generalize an entire group of people though), this site or any other but they're not the only people around with a negative opinion of WC. Not by a long shot.

 

[avengingbeagle]

I'd answer every point, but WC is, after all, said to be "the lazy man's art" due to it's emphasis on efficiency. I'm way too lazy to go to all that trouble. Besides, why take anybody else's word as gospel? If you're really interested, take WC for a solid 6 months, train hard and then answer the questions yourself. It's only 6 months, so what have you got to lose?

That's a pretty good point. 6 months isn't a lot to lose if it doesn't work out. Thanks!

 

[avengingbeagle]

Honestly, based on your post I think you'd be better served taking Muay Thai, or a similar striking MA style that has strong roots in MMA. It doesn't seem that WC would be a great fit for you if you're having all of these concerns BEFORE you take a class.

I will go out back and shoot myself in the foot then in the face after I make this comment. I agree with Hanzou on this one. I was going to reply to the long list of concerns but he's right. If you are having all of these concerns before you take the class then it's not he right one for you. You'll just end up training in a system that you don't fully trust.

I don't know where you live but if there is a Jow Ga school near you then definitely do that. Any concerns that you may have will be gone after the first 2 classes. Forms are important in kung fu because it's part of the conditioning that helps build cardiovascular endurance, muscle strength, and muscle endurance. It also serves as a library of techniques.

But whatever you decide to do, you'll need to be able to trust enough in that system to the point where you aren't going to be bailing out of the techniques. Most kung fu schools look like basic kickboxing because the student doesn't spend time actually trying to use the techniques when sparring. That's says more about the student than it does about the fighting system. We had a student that only did boxing when it came to sparring even though he knew the techniques. I'm actually able to use kung fu techniques I've learned. So just because you see someone revert to basic kickboxing doesn't mean that the kung fu system is no good. It usually just means the student doesn't trust the system enough to fight with. You'll end up the same way if you don't trust the fighting system that you are training in. Provided that it's not a Mcdojo, avoid those at all costs.

See, that's a solid answer concerning people not sparring enough using the techniques they've learned. Thanks! I hear that WC don't spar much and from what I've seen, it seems to be true. However, you would know more than me(presumably). Is this issue being addressed or just plain untrue?

Also about forms: I understand how they benefit, I was just wondering if they're as efficient a way to get those same things otherwise. You seem to think yes? I actually like the idea of forms a lot and can see them having good mental repercussions as well(in a meditation type way).

Thanks for the answers. Wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers, just trying to hear both sides equally.

 

[guy b.]

I guess you're implying BJJ is for "fragile minds". Cool. I'm glad that makes you feel good but we know that it's not true.

You will feel happier doing bjj because it will get you acceptance, kudos and reassurance on sites like bullshido. You will be rock-solid sure of its fantastic reputation and you will be able to bask in all of the reflected glory. Wing chun on the other hand will leave in a permanent state of introspective doubt and self-loathing. Avoid wing chun for this reason.

I know nothing about bullshido(way to generalize an entire group of people though), this site or any other but they're not the only people around with a negative opinion of WC. Not by a long shot

Ok, don't do wing chun. Do bjj, you might even like it if you don't give up. Even if you do give up then you can still hang around on bullshido talking about how great bjj is and how rubbish wing chun is in comparison. Bjj or sitting at home on the internet is the obvious choice for you.

 

[avengingbeagle]

Do you go on political sites and read all the arguments between all the different political views? If you did would they change your mind about your own political views that you have formed from your own thinking and experience just because people are arguing? If the answer is no, I wouldn't go on these sites and no I wouldn't let a bunch of strangers who like insulting each other change my views then you have your answer.
I would say ignore everything you have read on that site, find somewhere you like training and do it. As for videos, they prove nothing and never will. Whatever you train, if you train properly you will get out of it far more than you imagine. The training will speak for itself. You will either enjoy it or not, you may find another style you like better but nothing will beat going to a place and actually trying it out, ignore the arguments on that site, most don't train anything anyway. Just train

Hey man, thanks for the reply. I'm picking up what you're putting down about "just train".

 

[avengingbeagle]

You will feel happier doing bjj because it will get you acceptance, kudos and reassurance on sites like bullshido. You will be rock-solid sure of its fantastic reputation and you will be able to bask in all of the reflected glory. Wing chun on the other hand will leave in a permanent state of introspective doubt and self-loathing. Avoid wing chun for this reason.



Ok, don't do wing chun. Do bjj, you might even like it if you don't give up. Even if you do give up then you can still hang around on bullshido talking about how great bjj is and how rubbish wing chun is in comparison. Bjj or sitting at home on the internet is the obvious choice for you.

Look man, drop the internet tough guy act. It's not a good look. Maybe you could take a cue from your fellow posters and try to be level headed and courteous.

I'm really sorry if I offended you by asking about the martial art you practice(and I'm being sincere here). Maybe I'm completely uninformed and NONE of the questions I've asked have any validity? Fine. Thing is, it doesn't hurt to ask. I'd just like to hear the response from those who would know best. No harm, no foul.

I mean, if I wanted praise, kudos, acceptance and all this: shouldn't I have made this thread on bullshido(where I don't have an account)?

 

[yak sao]

If you don't mind my asking, where are you located and what particular school are you looking at?
Some WC schools fight more than others. I remember many years ago I had a guy drop in to our class who was a WC guy from out of state and was just visiting. He mentioned to his sifu that he was going to train with us and his sifu's response was " oh, those guys spend too much time fighting".

 

[avengingbeagle]

If you don't mind my asking, where are you located and what particular school are you looking at?
Some WC schools fight more than others. I remember many years ago I had a guy drop in to our class who was a WC guy from out of state and was just visiting. He mentioned to his sifu that he was going to train with us and his sifu's response was " oh, those guys spend too much time fighting".

I'm in the VA beach area. There are a few schools in the area. The front runner for me was Gorden Lu's school, VB Wing Chun.

Really though, whichever one spars the most is probably the route I'll take.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thanks! I hear that WC don't spar much and from what I've seen, it seems to be true. However, you would know more than me(presumably). Is this issue being addressed or just plain untrue?

There's no real answer to this. It's going to vary from school to school to school. The problem that you have is what most schools have "Same style vs Same Style", Wing Chun vs Wing Chun. This type of sparring isn't that great because it doesn't help the student to learn how to fight against non-Wing Chun fighters. You'll also need find a place that actually has some sparring or fight experience. It doesn't have to be professional fight experience, but there is a basic level of understanding that is needed when it comes to using kung fu to fight. There are certain things that can only be learned by fighting or sparring. It won't be enough to just spar. Someone will need to really know how to apply the techniques in a real fight or a free sparring situation against another fighting system other than Wing Chun.

I'll put myself in the "hot seat" and give my school as an example, I know for a fact that none of the other Jow Ga schools train to fight the same way that students at my school does. We spar, analyze video, trying to understand windows of opportunities, and do drills that other schools don't do. I'm not saying that what I'm doing is the best way, but I know that when I spar it actually looks like kung fu and not basic kickboxing. Wing Chun probably has the same story where one school does much better at teaching how to fight using Wing Chun while another school doesn't focus on fighting.

Also about forms: I understand how they benefit, I was just wondering if they're as efficient a way to get those same things otherwise. You seem to think yes? I actually like the idea of forms a lot and can see them having good mental repercussions as well(in a meditation type way).

I don't know how Wing Chun forms are set up but Jow Ga forms are set up as if we are actually fighting imaginary opponents. My school has a saying "If someone can walk in the middle of a form and not get hurt then the person is doing the form wrong." If someone tries to hit me from behind then I know how to address it because it's in the form where someone attacks us from behind, from the side, and from different angles. So for the fighting system that I study there is no way to learn it without forms.

With Wing Chun you can watch videos of Wing Chun one on one, then go watch a video on Wing Chun vs multiple attackers, watch how the stance changes and the movement changes, but you won't see any of that in the form. I don't know if that's something that is trained outside of the form or not. You'll have to ask one of the Wing Chun guys here.

The only thing I can say for sure about Kung Fu. If you don't trust 100% in a technique then you'll bail out in the middle of it, and it will fail you.

Not putting any shoulder or hips into punches

This method creates good power but bad root. Bad root means you'll probably end up on the ground when you least expect it.

"He does this, I do this"

Run away when you see someone teaching like this. In a real fight, what you'll be able to do is dependent on what your opponent gives you.

The best place to see video of Wing Chun in action is in lei tai fights. Do a search for "Wing Chun Lei Tai."

 

[Hanzou]

I'm in the VA beach area. There are a few schools in the area. The front runner for me was Gorden Lu's school, VB Wing Chun.

Really though, whichever one spars the most is probably the route I'll take.

There's a Gustavo Machado gym in Va beach. WTH are you worried about WC?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Do Isshin-Ryu. All the vertical fist of WC, plus much butt kicking.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

OK, this will be a pretty long post. I will try to be specific, clear and concise. I think it will be worthwhile for myself and others like me, who are interested in wing chun but are having second doubts.

Let me start by explaining my interest in practicing Wing Chun.

1. Health & fitness - I'm looking for a hobby I can practice regularly that will help keep me in shape and up/off the couch.

2. Kung fu cinema freak - I have always loved martial arts movies. I've seen hundreds of classic Shaw Bros, Golden Harvest, independent and modern kung fu flicks. I realize there isn't a lot of Wing Chun in these movies(I'd actually probably do Hung Gar if it were near me) but that's not important. I've developed a deep appreciation and interest in Chinese culture because of this and this is a way to bridge the gap. I should state though: I'm well aware that they are just movies and not representative of reality. I still think they're awesome though! (Bonus points if anyone correlates this with my user name).

3. Self-Defense - This is actually not so important to me. I'm 30 years old and I've never been in any fights. I'm good at diffusing turbulent situations and have no problem looking like a "pussy" if it means avoiding a conflict. HOWEVER: If I'm going to invest a lot of time training in a "martial art", I expect it to pay some dividends in this area. It's also a nice insurance policy in the event that something unavoidable happens.

4. Longevity - I would like to engage in something I can practice as long as I'd like and not have to worry about excessive injury, brain trauma, Body breaking down, etc.

5. Something I can practice alone - although I plan on making classes regularly, I don't like the idea of being dependent on them. I was originally set on taking BJJ but I don't like the idea of needing someone to practice with. I've got bags/pads/etc at home and can always practice forms alone.

So far, Wing Chun seems to tick all the boxes. I had pretty much convinced myself to sign up until spending all day yesterday reading threads on bullshido...

In addition to being so persistent and savage in their critique of wing chun, a lot of the arguments seemed to resonate with me. Most prominently:

1. No "proof" of effectiveness - why are there little to no videos of guys using wing chun techniques to win or even be competitive fighting against other styles while executing what they practice/teach. Why are there little to no WC practicioners in MMA? Where are the full contact WC tournaments that don't end up looking like poor kickboxing matches?

2. Lack of sparring - It seems the vast majority of gyms are not focused on sparring, if they include it in the curriculum at all. Is it even debatable that you don't have to fight to learn how to fight? I don't think so. It seems a lot of the gyms that do spar are doing it infrequently and without full contact, no head punching, etc.

3. Forms: Are they worth the focus they seem to be given? - "siu lim tao is the basis of everything, it's all there". I hear this a lot and I see how it works but is it time efficient? Would I not be better off practicing my bong sau against a live opponent? Etc. Why not get straight to the matter instead of these esoteric forms? What's the advantage?

4. "He does this, I do this"! - We all know the videos. I understand the purpose of drilling the technique before you try to implement it against an opponent(to make sure form is correct and what not) . There just seems to be soooo much of this. What's worse is the guy who you're reacting to is usually throwing some half hearted punch, with poor/unrealistic technique.

5. Is the system fundamentally flawed? - Sure, a lot of Wing Chun sounds nice in theory but does it work in practice? If it does; is this really the easiest/most effective means to the end?

A) It's advertised as being simplified, stripped down, efficient, etc. If that's true a person with 6 months training should be equal to or greater than a boxer with 6 months training(provided similar physique, weight, etc). However, the opposite seems to be true.

B) Not putting any shoulder or hips into punches - Why does seemingly every other system advise the opposite of this? I'm not saying it doesn't work but again: is this really the quickest/most efficient way of doing things?

C) Short range/Infighting - again sounds great but why do we never see WC guys close the gap and get in close against boxers and the like?

D) Trapping/blocking - Even the critics admit some WC trapping techniques seem effective but is there an unrealistic emphasis placed on it? What about the blocking component? This is perhaps most troubling/counterintuitive to me: the idea is to stand within a boxers preferred range(unless/until the gap is bridged) and parry all their shots right? Would it not be easier/more efficient to stay out of range and/or move out of the way, waiting for an opportunity to move within your preferred range? It seems the more shots you take, the more likely it becomes one gets through to you.

E) "Complete system" - I know there are elements of clinching, takedowns and grappling but unless you can stuff a wrestler, stay alive on the ground with a BJJ guy(at least until you can get back up) or shed a Muay Thai clinch, then I'm sorry... It's just not. I'm fine with cross training some BJJ to supplement the Chun, let's just call a spade a spade.

6. "You never see real Wing Chun because it's too deadly, man" - I'm not really gonna touch on this but suffice to say: I'm shocked at how much this comes up as a serious response. I think anyone being objective knows that BJJ could be just as deadly, along with judo, Muay Thai, etc. These martial arts were all adapted to their current sport forms. Wing Chun could do the same.

7. Lineage wars/hero worship/politics/infighting - This is obviously not unique to Wing Chun but it seems to be pretty exaggerated here. I guess this is a minor gripe but it's worth a mention. As an outsider looking in, it was so prevalent it became confusing. Not really all that appealing to someone looking to get involved.

Just to be clear: I'm no fighting expert. These are just things I've heard over and over that make sense to me. I'm not trying to bash WC, I'm just looking for some level headed, objective answers. As I stated before: I WANT to love wing Chun, I really do. I'm just naturally skeptic and I have a hard time taking things at face value. As stated before, if I put the work in I want to get something worthwhile out.

Sorry for the length! I'm sure this is boring/redundant and you've heard and answered it all before but I appreciate your insight! Thank you very much!

I'm not a Wing Chunner, but I might be able to address some of your concerns...

Re: effectiveness - WC does have a long history of bare knuckle challenge matches with practitioners of other styles. You can find some examples on YouTube of chunners using their art effectively in sparring matches. Do they always win? No. Do all the practitioners manage to maintain good WC form while fighting? No. Have most chunners figured out how to adapt their art to the context of modern MMA? No. However it can be used effectively in a fight and it has been used effectively in fights. Your original criteria stated that self-defense was a secondary criteria. It sounds like you want some combative benefit but you aren't necessarily concerned with studying an art that is guaranteed to be the deadliest or most complete art around. Based on that, I think WC would be fine for you.

Re: forms - we can have (and have had) long arguments about whether solo forms are the most efficient way to practice for combat effectiveness. However your original criteria stated that you wanted a) a way to practice on your own without a partner and b) a connection to Chinese culture. For both of those requirements, forms are a good way to go.

Re: Lineage wars/hero worship/politics/infighting - it's present in every single martial art out there. The good news is that in most cases you can just ignore it and focus on your training. Let someone else worry about whether instructor x is more connected to the "pure original lineage" than instructor y. As long as you are enjoying your training it just doesn't matter.

Re: "complete" art - every martial art out there has areas of strength and areas where it is lacking. Looking at your original list of potential reasons for wanting to study, I don't see anything saying that you want an art that will cover every possible area of combat.

If you have a good WC school available to you, I vote that you pay it a visit and give it a try. If you enjoy it, then stick with it.

My advice is don't do a martial art; you don't have the perseverance for it and you will probably make excuses and quit very quickly. If you must do something then bjj is probably much more suited to someone of such a fragile mindset than wing chun. I advise you to either do nothing or do bjj. Don't do wing chun. Also don't read bullshido, it is filled with dishonest fantasists who like to criticise.

You think BJJ is suited for people with a fragile mindset?
Snort.
giggle.


Thanks. I needed a good laugh.

 

[avengingbeagle]

There's no real answer to this. It's going to vary from school to school to school. The problem that you have is what most schools have "Same style vs Same Style", Wing Chun vs Wing Chun. This type of sparring isn't that great because it doesn't help the student to learn how to fight against non-Wing Chun fighters. You'll also need find a place that actually has some sparring or fight experience. It doesn't have to be professional fight experience, but there is a basic level of understanding that is needed when it comes to using kung fu to fight. There are certain things that can only be learned by fighting or sparring. It won't be enough to just spar. Someone will need to really know how to apply the techniques in a real fight or a free sparring situation against another fighting system other than Wing Chun.

I'll put myself in the "hot seat" and give my school as an example, I know for a fact that none of the other Jow Ga schools train to fight the same way that students at my school does. We spar, analyze video, trying to understand windows of opportunities, and do drills that other schools don't do. I'm not saying that what I'm doing is the best way, but I know that when I spar it actually looks like kung fu and not basic kickboxing. Wing Chun probably has the same story where one school does much better at teaching how to fight using Wing Chun while another school doesn't focus on fighting.

I don't know how Wing Chun forms are set up but Jow Ga forms are set up as if we are actually fighting imaginary opponents. My school has a saying "If someone can walk in the middle of a form and not get hurt then the person is doing the form wrong." If someone tries to hit me from behind then I know how to address it because it's in the form where someone attacks us from behind, from the side, and from different angles. So for the fighting system that I study there is no way to learn it without forms.

With Wing Chun you can watch videos of Wing Chun one on one, then go watch a video on Wing Chun vs multiple attackers, watch how the stance changes and the movement changes, but you won't see any of that in the form. I don't know if that's something that is trained outside of the form or not. You'll have to ask one of the Wing Chun guys here.

The only thing I can say for sure about Kung Fu. If you don't trust 100% in a technique then you'll bail out in the middle of it, and it will fail you.

This method creates good power but bad root. Bad root means you'll probably end up on the ground when you least expect it.

Run away when you see someone teaching like this. In a real fight, what you'll be able to do is dependent on what your opponent gives you.

The best place to see video of Wing Chun in action is in lei tai fights. Do a search for "Wing Chun Lei Tai."

I love your schools approach to sparring. It sounds like exactly what I'm looking for.

By the way, there is a jow ga school near me that I plan on checking out. They have Sanshou sparring classes and the facilities are open to students outside of classes. Sounds like a good deal. We'll see how it compares to the WC schools near me.

Thanks for taking the time to reply with a measured response. I appreciate it.

 

[avengingbeagle]

I'm not a Wing Chunner, but I might be able to address some of your concerns...

Re: effectiveness - WC does have a long history of bare knuckle challenge matches with practitioners of other styles. You can find some examples on YouTube of chunners using their art effectively in sparring matches. Do they always win? No. Do all the practitioners manage to maintain good WC form while fighting? No. Have most chunners figured out how to adapt their art to the context of modern MMA? No. However it can be used effectively in a fight and it has been used effectively in fights. Your original criteria stated that self-defense was a secondary criteria. It sounds like you want some combative benefit but you aren't necessarily concerned with studying an art that is guaranteed to be the deadliest or most complete art around. Based on that, I think WC would be fine for you.

Re: forms - we can have (and have had) long arguments about whether solo forms are the most efficient way to practice for combat effectiveness. However your original criteria stated that you wanted a) a way to practice on your own without a partner and b) a connection to Chinese culture. For both of those requirements, forms are a good way to go.

Re: Lineage wars/hero worship/politics/infighting - it's present in every single martial art out there. The good news is that in most cases you can just ignore it and focus on your training. Let someone else worry about whether instructor x is more connected to the "pure original lineage" than instructor y. As long as you are enjoying your training it just doesn't matter.

Re: "complete" art - every martial art out there has areas of strength and areas where it is lacking. Looking at your original list of potential reasons for wanting to study, I don't see anything saying that you want an art that will cover every possible area of combat.

If you have a good WC school available to you, I vote that you pay it a visit and give it a try. If you enjoy it, then stick with it.



You think BJJ is suited for people with a fragile mindset?
Snort.
giggle.


Thanks. I needed a good laugh.

There is a reason I posted my criteria in selecting a martial art first. Everybody else seemingly ignored that part, went straight to the second part and just assumed WC wasn't for me because of it.

This was a great post and just the kind of balanced and realistic reply I was looking for. Thanks a lot man.