Have any other karateka besides George Dillman been able to accomplish the point strike knockout?

[Wing Woo Gar]

Is there anywhere you can see the original video?

I am not sure what you refer to, but the mechanism to what You describe here sound like triggering the baroreflex by mechanical strik to baroreceptors - the bodys fastest acute response to downregulation of blood pressure, via ANS control of the heart, downregulation HR within the next cycle and the result is often a temporary drop in blood pressure, fainting. If strike is hard I think the heart can almsot stop. There are baroreceptor cells (that exist in unusual high density in the necks carotid sinus. These cells are actual local blood pressure sensors, that trigger the baroreflex. So a strike to them, sets the regulatory system in panic mode.

The mechanism does not require cutting off or destructing the vessels, it is simply triggering the baroreceptor cells that triggers a natural body reflex.
Baroreceptor - Wikipedia
Baroreflex - Wikipedia

Interesting, I want to try it on an unsuspecting innocent bystander and see if it works.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

With all this first aid talk, it kind of reminds me of how every martial artist should learn some basic first aid.

But with that being the case, if you learn no-touch knockouts... it might be responsible of you to seek out one of those televangelists from that 80's that healed cripples on stage and learn how to do that. "You're HEALED!"

I’ve been thinking of starting a cult for a very long time.

 

[Fungus]

Interesting, I want to try it on an unsuspecting innocent bystander and see if it works.

I have no doubts whatsoever that it works, it is perfectly logical and no mysticism required. But it is a dangerous move, reserved for self defense only. And which is why we do not see it common in MMA or competitions.

 

[windwalker099]

And which is why we do not see it common in MMA or competitions.

Good clip with lots of information showing some vulnerabilities of the human body. Exploiting these is illegal due to health and safety concerns, but it can be done by those who conceal their movements or accidentally through sloppy or misplaced actions.

In another thread asked about the difference's between the mind set of combative sport's and self defense, relative to what is commonly viewed or termed as "fighting"

With some styles/methods actively cultivating "cruelty" as a mind set..

1. Chon – To destroy the enemy completely so that he can’t renew his attack

One trying to win a contest, the other trying to "neutralize' the threat as they say

Does training in one area preclude its usage in the other due to the nature of the training itself,
or can one switch between them ?

 

[Gyakuto]

Is there anywhere you can see the original video?

I am not sure what you refer to, but the mechanism to what You describe here sound like triggering the baroreflex by mechanical strik to baroreceptors - the bodys fastest acute response to downregulation of blood pressure, via ANS control of the heart, downregulation HR within the next cycle and the result is often a temporary drop in blood pressure, fainting. If strike is hard I think the heart can almsot stop. There are baroreceptor cells (that exist in unusual high density in the necks carotid sinus. These cells are actual local blood pressure sensors, that trigger the baroreflex. So a strike to them, sets the regulatory system in panic mode.

The mechanism does not require cutting off or destructing the vessels, it is simply triggering the baroreceptor cells that triggers a natural body reflex.
Baroreceptor - Wikipedia
Baroreflex - Wikipedia

The problem is these reflexes can’t always be manually elicited. For example, when a person presents with supraventricular tachycardia the first thing one is supposed to do is ‘carotid sinus massage’. It seldom works in my experience, even with a fully cooperation patient. Imagine trying to ‘administer’ it to an aggressive, uncooperative adversary!

 

[Dirty Dog]

The problem is these reflexes can’t always be manually elicited. For example, when a person presents with supraventricular tachycardia the first thing one is supposed to do is ‘carotid sinus massage’. It seldom works in my experience, even with a fully cooperation patient. Imagine trying to ‘administer’ it to an aggressive, uncooperative adversary!

Not in the last 20 years or so. It seldom works, as you said, and is seldom done.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Last I heard CPR doesn't even recommend mouth to mouth... it's just compressions now. Maybe someone who's certification is current can confirm or correct me on that.

I just got certified. No artificial respiration now.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The problem is these reflexes can’t always be manually elicited. For example, when a person presents with supraventricular tachycardia the first thing one is supposed to do is ‘carotid sinus massage’. It seldom works in my experience, even with a fully cooperation patient. Imagine trying to ‘administer’ it to an aggressive, uncooperative adversary!

As a person with persistent Atrial Fibrillation, I can tell you that I have an 8% PVC burden even when I'm not in Afib, and I also have the occasional SVT, as seen on my tracings. It's 'normal' for me. Please don't do anything to me unless a doctor says to.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Well you wouldn't want an unqualified healing crystal practitioner treating you.

Or even your dog. My wife and I were on a day trip to Laguna Beach, CA, or some other upscale hippy town, can't remember exactly. We walked into one new age shop and saw a woman with a dog on a table purifying its chakras. Amazing what people will spend money on.

 

[Fungus]

The problem is these reflexes can’t always be manually elicited. For example, when a person presents with supraventricular tachycardia the first thing one is supposed to do is ‘carotid sinus massage’. It seldom works in my experience, even with a fully cooperation patient. Imagine trying to ‘administer’ it to an aggressive, uncooperative adversary!

Are you referring to that

"carotid sinus massage" only works in a small % of cases "helps/works" as a way to reset arrythmias in patients with arrythmia? I've read this yes, but this is not the same trick as the MA application of trying to knock someone out?

or

are you suggesting that some persons commonly have a depressed baroreflex response to the point as not responding with a significant transient BP and HR drop to a carotid sinus strike? I am not aware of this, if you have any references on this I would be interested as I never heard about this. That said maybe it's not trivial to hit the carotid sinus with a sufficiently hard strike, especially if someone is trying to block

So to lack baroreflex response, and that this reflect execution "fixes" an arrythmia, are two totally different things?

 

[_Simon_]

I’ve been thinking of starting a cult for a very long time.

I'm in!!! Wait, what's it about first..

 

[Badhabits]

I'm only joining if there's Kool aid

 

[Gyakuto]

Are you referring to that

"carotid sinus massage" only works in a small % of cases "helps/works" as a way to reset arrythmias in patients with arrythmia? I've read this yes, but this is not the same trick as the MA application of trying to knock someone out?

or

are you suggesting that some persons commonly have a depressed baroreflex response to the point as not responding with a significant transient BP and HR drop to a carotid sinus strike? I am not aware of this, if you have any references on this I would be interested as I never heard about this. That said maybe it's not trivial to hit the carotid sinus with a sufficiently hard strike, especially if someone is trying to block

So to lack baroreflex response, and that this reflect execution "fixes" an arrythmia, are two totally different things?

Reflexes tend to be labile due to the many factors being involved in their initiation such as receptor function, desecending inhibition (descending = from central nervous system) etc. For example, ask someone to initiate your patellar tendon jerk reflex and note the lower leg upward flick. Now perform Jendrassik’s manoeuvre and initiate it again and observe the startling difference. That is due to descending stimulation. Also you can inhibit the reflex by simply willing it not to work.

The carotid sinus has evolved to initiate the stimulation of the glossopharyngeal nerve (sinus nerve of Hering) by internal trans-wall tension changes as the blood pressure changes. Fingertip carotid sinus massage/striking the side of the neck isn’t optimally stretching the vessel walls in the manner nature intended, so it won’t reliably initiate the baroreceptor reflex.

Boxers hit their opponent’s neck, very hard and repeatedly during the course of their contests without (seldom) reliable knockouts. This is why they favour initiating unconsciousness by hitting the side of the head which is more reliable in producing unconsciousness.

We have to factor-in experimenter/subject cooperation too (the sort of thing you see at stage hypnotism). Experimenter effects refer to an experimental artifact in which participants consciously or unconsciously aim to produce the results to meet what they think of as the expectation of the experimenter. This is enhanced by priming the subject with the desired expectations of the intervention, having an expectant audience, the experimenter being ‘famous’/intimidating etc.

It is for all these reason I believe one-touch knockouts are, at best, exaggerated and bogus at worst.

La conversacion se termine.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I have watched George Dillman's video many times but I cannot figure out how he knocks out opponents merely by tapping them on the arm.
He demonstrates how acupuncture point striking is built into the karate katas but I do not understand how he does it.
It's not fake because karate guys who have never met him before tried to keep from getting knocked out but he still put them on the floor with a single touch.
Are there any karatekas on this forum who can explain to me how he does it.
Do they have that skill?
And how can it be learned?

To answer the original question without heckling or fraud bashing (which is against the rules here), let me offer some comments.

The first is that magic isn't real. Despite the fact that humans don't know everything there is to know about the laws of the universe, everything nevertheless obeys them. If something seems to be supernatural, it isn't. It's just not understood yet.

The second is that there is a lot of room inside the difference between what we know and what we don't know for things which seem to defy natural laws to exist.

The third is that if something appears to defy natural laws, it does not mean it's real. Fraud, deceit, misrepresentation, trickery, and even earnest belief systems and the power of suggestion live in this zone as well.

As to pressure point knockouts...

I've never witnessed one that convinced me it was real and not the result of one of those misrepresentations I mentioned, even if earnestly believed by those who practice it. But that's merely my opinion. I am open to new evidence, including having it applied to me. I'd say, "show me."

I will say that I've personally experienced odd things that would seem to indicate pressure points exist. It's easy to try for oneself. I can, for example, manipulate the web of one hand with the thumb and forefinger of my other hand, and feel pinpricks of pain in my big toe.

That's a far cry from knocking someone out. But it seems to establish the notion that a pressure applied in one place can manifest as pain felt elsewhere. It would seem to follow that such spots might exist that would permit a person to be rendered unconscious.

But that doesn't mean they must exist, or that they've been codified to the extent of being reliably applied. Especially in an urgent self-defense situation.

With regard to practicality, I know some techniques that are perfectly legitimate, but which I would not attempt in an actual self-defense situation, simply because they're too intricate and involve more technical ability than I possess to use under duress. I have an instructor who prefers the "block em and clock em" school, and I have to say, it's effective.

Bottom line, such things may exist, but I currently doubt they do. Even if they do exist, I don't think they are techniques I'd rely on for actual self-defense.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I'm in!!! Wait, what's it about first..

Secrets…

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I'm only joining if there's Kool aid

We use authentic KoolAid not that knock off bs purple drank.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

To answer the original question without heckling or fraud bashing (which is against the rules here), let me offer some comments.

The first is that magic isn't real. Despite the fact that humans don't know everything there is to know about the laws of the universe, everything nevertheless obeys them. If something seems to be supernatural, it isn't. It's just not understood yet.

The second is that there is a lot of room inside the difference between what we know and what we don't know for things which seem to defy natural laws to exist.

The third is that if something appears to defy natural laws, it does not mean it's real. Fraud, deceit, misrepresentation, trickery, and even earnest belief systems and the power of suggestion live in this zone as well.

As to pressure point knockouts...

I've never witnessed one that convinced me it was real and not the result of one of those misrepresentations I mentioned, even if earnestly believed by those who practice it. But that's merely my opinion. I am open to new evidence, including having it applied to me. I'd say, "show me."

I will say that I've personally experienced odd things that would seem to indicate pressure points exist. It's easy to try for oneself. I can, for example, manipulate the web of one hand with the thumb and forefinger of my other hand, and feel pinpricks of pain in my big toe.

That's a far cry from knocking someone out. But it seems to establish the notion that a pressure applied in one place can manifest as pain felt elsewhere. It would seem to follow that such spots might exist that would permit a person to be rendered unconscious.

But that doesn't mean they must exist, or that they've been codified to the extent of being reliably applied. Especially in an urgent self-defense situation.

With regard to practicality, I know some techniques that are perfectly legitimate, but which I would not attempt in an actual self-defense situation, simply because they're too intricate and involve more technical ability than I possess to use under duress. I have an instructor who prefers the "block em and clock em" school, and I have to say, it's effective.

Bottom line, such things may exist, but I currently doubt they do. Even if they do exist, I don't think they are techniques I'd rely on for actual self-defense.

My Sifu knew many” tricks” as he called them. He could do a few things I can’t explain, when I would ask “how did you do that” he would respond with, “thats why my name is on the sign.” And laugh. He would regularly call out Charlatans and hucksters as such. He showed us the “tricks” so we could recognize the difference between useful legitimate techniques and showmanship. Once I asked if any of the tricks out there were real, he said there is real mumbo jumbo, but not without the physical reality. That’s the most he ever explained it. He was very focused on the foundational hard physical work required to obtain high skill in martial arts.

 

[Fungus]

Reflexes tend to be labile due to the many factors being involved in their initiation such as receptor function, desecending inhibition (descending = from central nervous system) etc. For example, ask someone to initiate your patellar tendon jerk reflex and note the lower leg upward flick. Now perform Jendrassik’s manoeuvre and initiate it again and observe the startling difference. That is due to descending stimulation. Also you can inhibit the reflex by simply willing it not to work.

Interesting, but is there any known mechanism by which the baroreflex can be inhibited in a similar way?

As far as I know reduced baroreflex sensitivty is usually correlated with cardiovascular pathology and is a risk marker, but it would be interesting to know if it is significantly modulated by high adrenaline or other things. But I never heard of this, so I an in doubt, for this particular tecnique.

The carotid sinus has evolved to initiate the stimulation of the glossopharyngeal nerve (sinus nerve of Hering) by internal trans-wall tension changes as the blood pressure changes. Fingertip carotid sinus massage/striking the side of the neck isn’t optimally stretching the vessel walls in the manner nature intended, so it won’t reliably initiate the baroreceptor reflex.

Boxers hit their opponent’s neck, very hard and repeatedly during the course of their contests without (seldom) reliable knockouts. This is why they favour initiating unconsciousness by hitting the side of the head which is more reliable in producing unconsciousness.

Hmm... I wonder if a boxer, with those big gloves accurately hits the caroid sinus, without first hitting the collar bone or jaws?

If some guards, tucks his chin down like boxers are taught, getting a clean hit to the carotid is likely not trivial, unless off guard, and without gloves. I was think a boxing glove smeares the force too much, and this might explain why making the head rattle is the normal KO.

We have to factor-in experimenter/subject cooperation too (the sort of thing you see at stage hypnotism). Experimenter effects refer to an experimental artifact in which participants consciously or unconsciously aim to produce the results to meet what they think of as the expectation of the experimenter. This is enhanced by priming the subject with the desired expectations of the intervention, having an expectant audience, the experimenter being ‘famous’/intimidating etc.

I fully agree with this in principle. Many reactions are simply due to the brains own "induced/acquired" expectations to future events.

But I would not actually have considered these things to be behind something as presumable robust as a carotid strike? I am not convinced, that we can dismiss that as exaggerated.

It is for all these reason I believe one-touch knockouts are, at best, exaggerated and bogus at worst.

In general, I totally agree with you, but I've so far considered the carotid strike and perhaps the nut strikes as exceptions, I never even considred the remotely bogus.

When you say it rarely works, do you then mean it's hard to actuall get a clean hit (THIS I buy 100%) or are you suggesting that many subjects when in a state of arousal and fighht, if caught off guard would actually resist beeing temporary knocked by a caroid strike, say by a shuto, shotei or haito strike?? That would be impressive if that is the case.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Interesting, but is there any known mechanism by which the baroreflex can be inhibited in a similar way?

As far as I know reduced baroreflex sensitivty is usually correlated with cardiovascular pathology and is a risk marker, but it would be interesting to know if it is significantly modulated by high adrenaline or other things. But I never heard of this, so I an in doubt, for this particular tecnique.


Hmm... I wonder if a boxer, with those big gloves accurately hits the caroid sinus, without first hitting the collar bone or jaws?

If some guards, tucks his chin down like boxers are taught, getting a clean hit to the carotid is likely not trivial, unless off guard, and without gloves. I was think a boxing glove smeares the force too much, and this might explain why making the head rattle is the normal KO.


I fully agree with this in principle. Many reactions are simply due to the brains own "induced/acquired" expectations to future events.

But I would not actually have considered these things to be behind something as presumable robust as a carotid strike? I am not convinced, that we can dismiss that as exaggerated.

In general, I totally agree with you, but I've so far considered the carotid strike and perhaps the nut strikes as exceptions, I never even considred the remotely bogus.

When you say it rarely works, do you then mean it's hard to actuall get a clean hit (THIS I buy 100%) or are you suggesting that many subjects when in a state of arousal and fighht, if caught off guard would actually resist beeing temporary knocked by a caroid strike, say by a shuto, shotei or haito strike?? That would be impressive if that is the case.

Interesting stuff. I’ve assisted in dozens of carotid endarterectomy procedures, most were 90% blocked by a large forked rubbery plaque. We usually placed a goretex graft after to repair, but not always. I wonder about how that might affect the baroreflex before and after.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Interesting, but is there any known mechanism by which the baroreflex can be inhibited in a similar way?

As far as I know reduced baroreflex sensitivty is usually correlated with cardiovascular pathology and is a risk marker, but it would be interesting to know if it is significantly modulated by high adrenaline or other things. But I never heard of this, so I an in doubt, for this particular tecnique.


Hmm... I wonder if a boxer, with those big gloves accurately hits the caroid sinus, without first hitting the collar bone or jaws?

If some guards, tucks his chin down like boxers are taught, getting a clean hit to the carotid is likely not trivial, unless off guard, and without gloves. I was think a boxing glove smeares the force too much, and this might explain why making the head rattle is the normal KO.


I fully agree with this in principle. Many reactions are simply due to the brains own "induced/acquired" expectations to future events.

But I would not actually have considered these things to be behind something as presumable robust as a carotid strike? I am not convinced, that we can dismiss that as exaggerated.

In general, I totally agree with you, but I've so far considered the carotid strike and perhaps the nut strikes as exceptions, I never even considred the remotely bogus.

When you say it rarely works, do you then mean it's hard to actuall get a clean hit (THIS I buy 100%) or are you suggesting that many subjects when in a state of arousal and fighht, if caught off guard would actually resist beeing temporary knocked by a caroid strike, say by a shuto, shotei or haito strike?? That would be impressive if that is the case.

I almost always aim side of head strikes at the earlobe.