Have any other karateka besides George Dillman been able to accomplish the point strike knockout?

[Fungus]

I almost always aim side of head strikes at the earlobe.

I see, but this would not cleanly hit the carotid sinus.

 

[Gyakuto]

Interesting, but is there any known mechanism by which the baroreflex can be inhibited in a similar way?

I don’t know.

As far as I know reduced baroreflex sensitivty is usually correlated with cardiovascular pathology and is a risk marker, but it would be interesting to know if it is significantly modulated by high adrenaline or other things. But I never heard of this, so I an in doubt, for this particular tecnique.

The carotid sinus isn’t the only baroreceptor centre. There’s a major one centrally in the aortic arch so the hypothalamus will compare activity in both peripheral and central baroreceptors and if only one is raised it won’t do much assuming anomalous data.

Hmm... I wonder if a boxer, with those big gloves accurately hits the caroid sinus, without first hitting the collar bone or jaws?

Have you seen professional boxers (like Tyson) hitting a bag and their opponents? They are sledgehammer blows to Karate’s gentle lips-glossed kisses.

If some guards, tucks his chin down like boxers are taught, getting a clean hit to the carotid is likely not trivial, unless off guard, and without gloves. I was think a boxing glove smeares the force too much, and this might explain why making the head rattle is the normal KO.

Torsion of the head, stretches the corpus callosum and other axons and that ‘turns the lights off).

But I would not actually have considered these things to be behind something as presumable robust as a carotid strike? I am not convinced, that we can dismiss that as exaggerated.

Your assumption that a carotid strike is robust is pure speculation based on hype from certain people. Try it! Get one of your grad students (choose one you’re not that bothered about) mark exactly where the bifurcation of the common carotid artery is located on her neck and then tap on it with increasing force with a patellar hammer whilst monitoring her blood pressure. Repeat 100 times and see how many times she goes unconscious or even dies (this is a joke by the way… we love all our grad students equally )

In general, I totally agree with you, but I've so far considered the carotid strike and perhaps the nut strikes as exceptions, I never even considred the remotely bogus.

The nut kick reflex is more powerful than the x ray burst of a pulsar and requires very little skill to administer. I’ve had 6 month old babies, standing in my lap, with those soft baby shoes, reduces me to a dribbling, crying individual with a nut stomp. No discussion required.

When you say it rarely works, do you then mean it's hard to actuall get a clean hit (THIS I buy 100%) or are you suggesting that many subjects when in a state of arousal and fighht, if caught off guard would actually resist beeing temporary knocked by a caroid strike, say by a shuto, shotei or haito strike?? That would be impressive if that is the case.

The carotid sinus runs pretty deep, runs with the jugular vein, vagus nerve, sympathetic plexus in the carotid sheath with the sternocleidomastoid muscles as well as fat and skin over them which all add substantial cushioning especially tensioned sternocleidomastoids. I think that helps prevent the effects of spurious strikes to that region.

Now, la conversacion se termine.

 

[drop bear]

I have no doubts whatsoever that it works, it is perfectly logical and no mysticism required. But it is a dangerous move, reserved for self defense only. And which is why we do not see it common in MMA or competitions.

Exept when someone wraps a shin around the neck.

 

[drop bear]

Good clip with lots of information showing some vulnerabilities of the human body. Exploiting these is illegal due to health and safety concerns, but it can be done by those who conceal their movements or accidentally through sloppy or misplaced actions.

In another thread asked about the difference's between the mind set of combative sport's and self defense, relative to what is commonly viewed or termed as "fighting"

With some styles/methods actively cultivating "cruelty" as a mind set..

1. Chon – To destroy the enemy completely so that he can’t renew his attack

One trying to win a contest, the other trying to "neutralize' the threat as they say

Does training in one area preclude its usage in the other due to the nature of the training itself,
or can one switch between them ?

Have you ever properly beaten someone up?

It is a pretty horrible experience.

 

[Buka]

I’ve been thinking of starting a cult for a very long time.

I think it should have a catchy title.

 

[Gyakuto]

Have you ever properly beaten someone up?

It is a pretty horrible experience.

Have you?!

 

[Buka]

Have you ever properly beaten someone up?

It is a pretty horrible experience.

It is. Especially right afterwards, or right after you calm down.

 

[Gyakuto]

I think it should have a catchy title.

‘The Cults’. Think of it being misheard

 

[Buka]

‘The Cults’. Think of it being misheard

 

[Fungus]

Your assumption that a carotid strike is robust is pure speculation based on hype from certain people. Try it! Get one of your grad students (choose one you’re not that bothered about) mark exactly where the bifurcation of the common carotid artery is located on her neck and then tap on it with increasing force with a patellar hammer whilst monitoring her blood pressure. Repeat 100 times and see how many times she goes unconscious or even dies (this is a joke by the way… we love all our grad students equally )

My assumption was thankfully not based on personal experience with it, but supported by my theoretical but indeed limited understanding of the blood pressure regulation. Otherwise I don't have faith in things without an explanation. it is tempting to make the experimental challenge but it seems not so ethical

The carotid sinus runs pretty deep, runs with the jugular vein, vagus nerve, sympathetic plexus in the carotid sheath with the sternocleidomastoid muscles as well as fat and skin over them which all add substantial cushioning especially tensioned sternocleidomastoids. I think that helps prevent the effects of spurious strikes to that region.

Makes sense, and because of this, a boxing glove probably isn't the best tool to get there? I think the egde of the hand some knuckles placed well will be superior?

 

[isshinryuronin]

the difference's between the mind set of combative sport's and self defense,

These are obviously different goals. Accordingly, also very different in the resulting tactics, techniques, "lethality" and mindset required to achieve each goal as further explained below:

With some styles/methods actively cultivating "cruelty" as a mind set..

1. Chon – To destroy the enemy completely so that he can’t renew his attack

I think this is a spectrum depending on the nature of the conflict. In large scale battle, cutting off the enemy's supply line, killing the general or having calvary/armor suddenly show up at the enemy's rear can damage morale to the extent that they break and rout or surrender. The dropping of the A-bomb on Japan had this effect. In other cases, inflicting heavy losses to render the fighting unit unable to give cohesive battle for the next month will do the job.

In sport combat, the opponent only needs to be "destroyed" (rendering him unable to counter) to the extent that gives you the ability to score points, submission or KO/TKO, depending on the sport. You can also break his morale (will to fight) by shaking his confidence. In sport, one normally has to keep the opponent from renewing his attack for only a few seconds or minutes at a time as a set end-time per rules ends the conflict.

In fighting for self-defense, it depends on the attacker's motivation as to what action you take that would persuade him to break off the attack. Confronting a calm meandering bear while hiking, a loud shout may do the job. If the bear is looking for a meal it may take a few rocks or spray to destroy its will to fight; most predators will work only so hard to earn its lunch before it seeks easier prey. If it's a mama bear defending her cubs (or just plain crazy), she is likely to fight to the death and so its ability to fight must be completely destroyed (wise to carry a very large caliber handgun in bear country). I think the same idea applies to humans.

There are humans that cannot easily get into the mindset to "destroy the enemy completely." I think we are born with a set level of aggressiveness (or at least survival instinct) to a greater or lesser degree. If lesser, proper MA training can strengthen one's capability. Physically, one can practice combinations that progressively advance the attack, culminating in a technique capable of rendering the attacker being unable to continue. Mentally, one needs to practice with intent, visualizing a life-or-death struggle and the effects his techniques will produce.

I don't think cruelty needs to be cultivated - just the fortitude, ability, conditioning and commitment to get the job done.

Does training in one area preclude its usage in the other due to the nature of the training itself,
or can one switch between them ?

In some cases, such as special forces in combat for months or even years at a time (as in WWII or Viet Nam) living continuously in life-or-death situations, I think one's brain can get warped and hard wired to act with catastrophic damage to threats. Similar to some in prison for years. Any attack will be seen as requiring destruction of the enemy. Other than these kinds of extreme cases, I think most of us have the objectivity and discipline (especially if well trained martial artists) to control our responses and react to each situation as required to the best of our ability.

 

[windwalker099]

There are humans that cannot easily get into the mindset to "destroy the enemy completely." I think we are born with a set level of aggressiveness (or at least survival instinct) to a greater or lesser degree.

Good post


Having retired from the US Army, served in mechanized infantry units as a field medic.
The grunts had what we might call a "mission " mind set

"primary mission of the Infantry battalion is to close with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver. Its purpose is to destroy or capture him, to repel his assaults by fire, close combat, and counterattack"

The training itself tended to weed out those physically or mentally unable to complete the mission.

In Chinese martial arts, there is a mindset referred to as '无心' (Wúxīn), similar to '無心' (Mushin) in Japanese arts—
meaning no thought, no thinking, no mind.

Hop Gar emphasized this a little differently,
4 concepts or ideas to follow

1. Chon – To destroy the enemy completely so that he can’t renew his attack
2. Sim – To evade, not meeting force directly but not to go too far into yielding
3. Chun – To penetrate by aiming at the space in between where the opponent has come out and not yet returned
4. Jeet – To intercept, checking the opponent’s force before it is released

Just wondered what others thought of "mind sets" within their training...

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I see, but this would not cleanly hit the carotid sinus.

I’m not trying for that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Have you ever properly beaten someone up?

It is a pretty horrible experience.

That depends on a couple of factors, or maybe I’m missing something?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It is. Especially right afterwards, or right after you calm down.

Again, I guess it depends. I felt euphoric on more than one occasion. I never did it to anyone who didn’t deserve it twice.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think it should have a catchy title.

Hmmm. It’s easier to come up with names for bands, particularly punk rock.

It is. Especially right afterwards, or right after you calm down.

or when you get sentenced.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Have you ever properly beaten someone up?

It is a pretty horrible experience.

Why was it horrible? The pain? The emotion involved with hurting someone? Did it conflict with personal ethics or morals?

 

[drop bear]

Why was it horrible? The pain? The emotion involved with hurting someone? Did it conflict with personal ethics or morals?

Yeah. Pretty much. I don't really like hurting people. I find it unsettling.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah. Pretty much. I don't really like hurting people. I find it unsettling.

So it sounds like you got forced into it. Yeah, I get that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah. Pretty much. I don't really like hurting people. I find it unsettling.

I never liked hurting people, I liked winning when I didn’t think I would or could. It felt like real good in an otherwise indescribable way.