chrispillertkd
Senior Master
That's a very interesting term he used to describe WTF sparring, and he's not the only very well known Taekwon-Do pioneer to use it, either.
Pax,
Chris
Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?
- Thread starter Mr. President
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That's a very interesting term he used to describe WTF sparring, and he's not the only very well known Taekwon-Do pioneer to use it, either.
Pax,
Chris
What is seen in the Olympics is WTF sport taekwondo. The WTF makes and interprets the rules. They regulate the sport internationally.
What is generally corrected is "WTF style," as there is no comprehensive WTF system. There is a comprehensive Kukkiwon system; Kukki taekwondo, whcih is comparable to Chang Hon taekwondo. A Kukki taekwondoist can compete in WTF tournaments under WTF rules, which limit the attacks and target areas in such a way as to emphasize high kicking. Most Kukki taekwondo students do not compete at all, however, and some that do compete in open tournaments under different rule sents.
Likewise, there are no WTF schools because to my knowledge, the WTF does not certify schools. The Kukkiwon does. The same goes for dan certification; the Kukkiwon certifies dans, establishes curriculum and regulates the art of Kukki taekwondo.
It gets rather murky when you look at how interconnected the two organizations are. At one point they were housed in the same building and if memory serves, at one point had the same president. The WTF recognizes only KKW dan certificates.
Personally, I'd like to see the WTF change the way they bracket their competitors so as to get away from any reference to dan grades (or any grades) and look strictly at competition record. The national governing bodies, such as USAT, should do the same, with members paying a USAT membership fee and having a rating based on their competitive record with no reference to their dan grade, and with anyone from any striking art background able to join and compete.
Then you would have USAT TKD clubs that would be like boxing gyms or fencing clubs, and your talent pool would be much larger. And it would eliminate the whole WTF vs. KKW school confusion.
See, we do agree on something. Though I would phrase it differently. To the public at large, a black belt is a proficient fighter in whatever style they hold the belt.
Originally, it meant advanced student. I'd say that the 'expert' perception came about in the seventies. Prior to that, the general public had no perception of what a black belt was and everything with a belt was "judo."
Given that for the entire twentieth century, the general public perceived boxing, which is a sport, as being synonomous with skill in self defense, I'm not sure I can agree with you on the art/sport, but I do agree with you in terms of public perception of a blackbelt's ability to fight in general (not just in tourney).
Everytime someone posts a 'what is self defense to you?' thread, it is very clear that there is hardly consensus on what constitutes "self defense." The only thing that we all seem to agree on is that a WTF sparring-only curriculum does not constitute a comprehensive self defense curriculum.
I am going to disagree with you on this one slightly; putting a BB on someone without proficiency in the basics of the art (in the case of KKW TKD, that would be Taegeuk pumsae 1 - 8 and the techniques contained therein, and at least WTF sparring, being able to demonstrate effective offense and defense within that format) is, IMO a bad idea.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
Because it is. The WTF org regulates competition rules, effectively making the competition an extremely heavily limited sub-form of KKW TKD. A game for us to play to work on timing, footwork and distancing. But those rules exclude a whole lot that those outside of KKW affiliated schools can't really see.
Gnarlie
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Daniel you sem to be making a distinction without a difference. "WTF sport style taekwondo" is KKW Taekwondo. The WTF is a sports organization only interested in a rules set, not in promulgating its own style of martial art. You might have something if you said WTF-style sparring, but definitely not "WTF sport taekwondo" as that indicates a style of martial art. A few pages ago ATC pointed out yet again that there is not such thing as "WTF Taekwondo" (which you can read here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...e-reputation-of-the-art?p=1560019#post1560019) yet now you're telling people there is.
You guys can't have it both ways.
Pax,
Chris
You guys can't have it both ways.
Pax,
Chris
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Then you should not call it "WTF Taekwondo," which is what you did. Call it Kukkiwon Taekwondo or Kukki Taekwondo and refer to WTF competition sparring as WTF competition sparring, or WTF sparring, or something else. But as I just pointed out to Daniel, if you guys call it "WTF Taekwondo" then other people are going to, too.
Pax,
Chris
Nobody is asking to. I am explaining it to you as it is.
The WTF is an organization distinct from the Kukkiwon. They call the sport that they regulate, "taekwondo." They establish rules and standards for that sport. They are recognized by the IOC as the governing body for the sport, "Taekwondo." They have satelite organizations in different nations that serve as IOC recognized national governing bodies for the sport of taekwondo. Each member nation has a national tournament circuit and the WTF has competition at an international level. They do not establish curriculum or promotion standards and do not certify students.
The Kukkiwon is an organization distinct from the WTF. They call the martial art that they promulgate, "Taekwondo." They establish curriculum, promotion standards, and certify students. They do not have a tournament circuit. They do not regulate the sport. Sparring according to WTF rules is a part of the Kukkiwon curriculum. But there are other types of sparring as well. The section in the textbook on WTF sparring is very small as compared to the rest of the curriculum.
So while the Kukkiwon supports the WTF, and while there is some small overlap between them, Kukki taekwondo is not WTF sport taekwondo. They are, however associated. Because WTF sparring is part of KKW curriculum the two cannot really be disassociated.
However, distinguishing between the two is not hard unless you simply choose not to do so or have so little familiarity with the subject that you cannot do so (which is what many say is the case with the general public).
I've already stated my opinion on this in a previous post. I feel that disassociating the two would actually strengthen both. But it isn't my call to make and my personal interest in the subject is mostly academic, as I do not compete in taekwondo on any level, do not teach WTF sparring, and have no input whatsoever as to the direction of either organization.
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I think you're making too broad a distinction.
It's off topic for this thread though, so I'll let it drop.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Daniel, I don't think you've really read my posts (I know the distinction that should be made between the KKW and WTF and have for over 20 years; my old KKW instructor n college explained it to the class on day one), but such is life. Suffice it to say people will continue to call whatever it is you do WTF Taekwondo because you guys do. But then soneone comes along and tells them how they're wrong and how it's really KKW Taekwondo. And despite your extended explanation of the difference between the WTF and the KKW you're the one who said it was WTF Taekwondo in the first place (after ATC corrected someone else). Do you see the problem with that?
If you want other people to use what you view as the correct nomenclature you guys should all get on the same page first yourselves.
Pax,
Chris
If you want other people to use what you view as the correct nomenclature you guys should all get on the same page first yourselves.
Pax,
Chris
I read your posts. Presumably you read mine and we each know where the other is coming from.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
I don't really care what any of it is called. I do think it important that people understand that Taekwondo of whatever breed is more than a sport, with a rich, diverse and deep technical and philosophical foundation available to those who are willing to take roads less travelled.
Gnarlie
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Uh, yes, I did. My point is you're saying one thing and doing another.
Pax,
Chris
Cyriacus im not sure what you attempting to say here, but ill try a stab at it. Growing up, my family was poor, so no I didn't get a opportunity to practice any martial art till I was grown and settled down. With kids popping up quickly after that, I had to put off my Martial arts dream till just recently.(about 2 years ago)
I was still put off by what I saw online. It did not(still dosent) match, to the things my father taught me and told me about tkd. The tkd he showed me was effective against the multiple times he had to fight off more then one assailent.(muggings) No, what he showed me, was a fantastic self defense art, what I found online was not. He always told me, that when I do start martial arts, to avoid sport at all costs. I heed that warning.. Now I know I started in boxing, only because, it was the only place I could find that was affordable(at the time) and taught by a amazing instructor.
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Cyriacus
Senior Master
I was verifying that when you know nothing about something, and all of your information comes from the most readily available information, and you dont know any better, you believe it. See, you had a comparison. I had the information presented to me and nothing else.
I like boxing and have a healthy respect for it, so don't take this the wrong way, but you apparently don't heed that warning; boxing is most definitely a sport, arguably one with as many disconnects from self defense as the taekwondo you saw online.
In all of your posts, you never mention actually visiting local TKD schools (If you have and I missed it, then my apologies). Maybe you did; if so, I'd be curious to what you saw. If not, why not? Your dad had real world experience that you were very impressed with. You saw something different online. Why not take the time to discover for yourself?
Olympic TKD has been a boom for TKD....a few Internet Curmudgeons seem to have vendetta against it but TKD has positive reputation with the general public and open minded Martial Artists....
Some may not like the rule set I understand that....but it is a sport that is here to stay and growing in popularity...which I am sure will cause the aforementioned Curmudgeons to attack with even more vitriol!
Some may not like the rule set I understand that....but it is a sport that is here to stay and growing in popularity...which I am sure will cause the aforementioned Curmudgeons to attack with even more vitriol!
for one to speak only from watching an Olympic fight tojudge the whole art of tkd is uneducated the traditional side of the art hasnot change nor the benefits from being part of it. what has happened is theenormous movement away from actual fighting instead of looking to win by onepoint. total elimination of quality and fair judging replaced by computers anda litigious and whiny competitor base with totally corrupt NGB's that part hasled many to concentrate on what the 90% of the base has wanted and needs allalong.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
fixed that for you
you wish that were true, you may have convinced yourself that is true, but it aint, and all you head in the sand denial wont make it true
This has been my experience.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
Daniel,
I posted something about TKD on my facebook the other day, and someone posted something very telling. He referred to it as "take your dough" ......just last week, i saw this same phrase on kenpotalk
thats TWICE in less than 2 weeks, from people totally unrelated to each other
the bad rep IS out there.
I posted something about TKD on my facebook the other day, and someone posted something very telling. He referred to it as "take your dough" ......just last week, i saw this same phrase on kenpotalk
thats TWICE in less than 2 weeks, from people totally unrelated to each other
the bad rep IS out there.
