Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?

[Daniel Sullivan]

One other observation I have made over the years is that often, people equate low or no fee with good instruction and fees equal to or greater than market average as equating to bad instruction. The two really don't have any connection. I have seen some very good instructors who charge market rate and some very good instructors who don't charge at all. I have also seen some very, very lousy instructors who charge market rates and some very, very lousy instructors who charge little to nothing.

I also have noticed that the more popular something is, the more likely people are to dismiss it simply because it is popular. There is something about being mainstream that just rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I worked for a while in music retail and noticed a very consistent trend of a band's fans turning on them after they made it big. In most cases, I also noticed that the playing level of the bands in question had usually improved, not degraded.

We all have a part of us that likes to be in the small group that likes the quirky, non mainstream thing, whatever it might be, and view it as more authentic than the more mainstream, commercial alternatives. Which is fine, so long as we remember that mainstream and commercial success and its absense do not automatically determine the quality or authenticity of a product, service, or craft.

 

[Sukerkin]

An interesting and well posited point there, Mr. Sullivan :tup:.

I would still maintain that the 'commercial' seam that TKD has mined in recent times tends to shake my belief that quality instruction, rather than 'meeting targets' for 'sale' of belts, is the goal of many franchise schools. But you are quite right to point out that one does not in and of itself equate to the other :nods:.

 

[Gnarlie]

With price, there's also the issue of perceived value. If you don't charge enough for your lessons, people tend not to value them as much and your attendance rates drop. When people pay more for something, they feel like they have to get their money's worth. It works another way too: they perceive the quality of what they are getting as better than the cheaper place down the road, regardless of whether or not that is actually true.

 

[chrispillertkd]

But with that said, aikido owes a lot in heritage to its parent art, Daito-ryu Aikijutsu, and we know that Taekeda Sokaku, an excellent swordsman who combined the various empty hand skills he learned and taught them under the Daito-Ryu umbrella, traveled throughout Japan, earning his living from giving lessons. He kept extensive logs of who he taught, what he taught, and even how much he charged. Funny stuff you might think from a man who came from a samurai background where money was traditionally scorned.

And yet the Yagyu were employed by the Shogun, and other families by various daimyo, specifically in order to teach their martial art. You could draw a very good salary in such a situation. So the "tradition" of money being "scorned" by samurai might not be as all encompassing as it first might appear.

There's nothing inherently wrong with making a living from teaching martial arts. The problem is when your motivation is to make money at the expense of handing on whatever tradition you teach. There's a difference. You can make a great living by attracting many students even if your main goal is to produce quality martial artists through excellent training. Especially if that's your motivation in some cases, I'd say. YMMV

I have been fortunate enough to train under an instructor who didn't need to charge a large amount because he held down a day job and taught because he loves Taekwon-Do. It was his attitude about Taekwon-Do that has been one of the reasons why he has had so many students over the years.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

An interesting and well posited point there, Mr. Sullivan :tup:.

I would still maintain that the 'commercial' seam that TKD has mined in recent times tends to shake my belief that quality instruction, rather than 'meeting targets' for 'sale' of belts, is the goal of many franchise schools. But you are quite right to point out that one does not in and of itself equate to the other :nods:.

I suspect that meeting sales goals, regardless of what they're for, is fairly pervasive in TKD. I won't say that it is the prime motivation for most schools, but it certainly is a major factor in decision making.

 

[Twin Fist]

Not true. You don't even have the decency to give an articulate response.

actually, I am others have given many MANY examples of what we are talking about and you just dismiss them out of hand, i cant speak for anyone else, but I am kind of done beating my head against your wall of denial. You wont even grant the possibility that what i and others have spoken of is true in our experience.

your responses may be polite and long, but they amount to "no it isnt" over and over

 

[Twin Fist]

I could be wrong, but you seem to operate under the assumption that your opinion is, or should be, shared by the entire world. It ought to be painfully obvious that "everyone" didn't consider them "crap", or they (and the movies) would not have been so wildly popular.

popular does not equal good

 

[Dirty Dog]

I suspect that meeting sales goals, regardless of what they're for, is fairly pervasive in TKD. I won't say that it is the prime motivation for most schools, but it certainly is a major factor in decision making.

I think once you go the commercial route, they become a major factor in decision making for every school, regardless of style.
That's the strongest argument against the commercial school route; if it's how you make your living, the school must be profitable, and all too often that leads to mandatory testing schedules, long term contracts, fee based "clubs" within the school and 'if you can afford it, we will award it' decisions (I stole that from someones .sig. I think it was Mr Bishop. But it is soooo apropriate.). Without the profit motive, the McDojo likely wouldn't exist.

 

[Sukerkin]

popular does not equal good

Well there must be some reason I went to the cinema with my late wife to watch the movies

 

[Dirty Dog]

popular does not equal good

Actually, in this case it does. At least in the view of the millions of people who bought the books and saw the movies.


TKD is very popular - quite possibly the most widely practiced martial art in the world. That is neither inherently good or bad. It merely is.

Some people (you give the impression that you may fall into this category) seem to automatically assume that anything that is popular is somehow inferior. That isn't the case.

The small subset of TKD shown in the Olympics is not (to my mind) ideal, but it certainly can't "ruin" the reputation of TKD in general. Let's face it. The "general public" doesn't know one art from another, and doesn't care to.

 

[Sukerkin]

I think that DD's last sentence there is far more true than a lot of us would like it to be .

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

the small subset of tkd shown in the olympics is not (to my mind) ideal, but it certainly can't "ruin" the reputation of tkd in general. Let's face it. The "general public" doesn't know one art from another, and doesn't care to.

qft!

 

[dancingalone]

And yet the Yagyu were employed by the Shogun, and other families by various daimyo, specifically in order to teach their martial art. You could draw a very good salary in such a situation. So the "tradition" of money being "scorned" by samurai might not be as all encompassing as it first might appear.

There's nothing inherently wrong with making a living from teaching martial arts. The problem is when your motivation is to make money at the expense of handing on whatever tradition you teach. There's a difference. You can make a great living by attracting many students even if your main goal is to produce quality martial artists through excellent training. Especially if that's your motivation in some cases, I'd say. YMMV

I have been fortunate enough to train under an instructor who didn't need to charge a large amount because he held down a day job and taught because he loves Taekwon-Do. It was his attitude about Taekwon-Do that has been one of the reasons why he has had so many students over the years.

Pax,

Chris

Nothing to disagree with there. I think Apple and Samsung are currently producing (and ahem, marketing) some great products and making high profits as a result. I think martial artists could frequently benefit from emulating these companies, particularly on the marketing side. What are we doing today to grow our markets, our potential student bases beyond just the ones that are naturally likely to walk into the door all by themselves? If we aren't trying to answer that question, we're not trying to GROW our martial art.

 

[Twin Fist]

without the profit motive, the mcdojo likely wouldn't exist.

qft

 

[Twin Fist]

but it certainly can't "ruin" the reputation of TKD in general. Let's face it. The "general public" doesn't know one art from another, and doesn't care to.

and this is where you are wrong

IF we agree that the WTF style sparring gym is becoming more and more common then that image is the most likely to be seen by the general public. With me so far?

with that image being the most commonly seen by the public, and it having the same name as the ART of TKD then the impression that WTF style sparring IS all that there is to TKD will become widespread

and IF we agree that the WTF style sparring is NOT the best representation of the ART of TKD it is undeniable that the general public will be seeing a one sided representation of what TKD is, and the general public wont know that there is a whole other art of tkd that includes more than bouncy kick sparring....

so yeah, it certainly can taint the reputation of the ART of TKD

same way someone can think that mcdonalds is the end all of burgers if that is the only burger they have ever eaten because it is the most common.

and NO, i dont think anything that is popular is bad, but i am not so stupid as to think that just because it is popular that it is good.

 

[Sukerkin]

You see, gentlemen, there is a common ground where we can all stand here I think. For I am seeing statements being made left and right that I agree with. Not all have all of the truth but there is some of the truth in all of them :nods:.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Nothing to disagree with there. I think Apple and Samsung are currently producing (and ahem, marketing) some great products and making high profits as a result. I think martial artists could frequently benefit from emulating these companies, particularly on the marketing side. What are we doing today to grow our markets, our potential student bases beyond just the ones that are naturally likely to walk into the door all by themselves? If we aren't trying to answer that question, we're not trying to GROW our martial art.

And yet, I think it is the marketing aspect of things that people find ... off-putting. It's because I have seen some people that run schools like a car dealership that I personally find some of the more over the top marketing offensive (on the flip side, I'm not of those people who wants to outlaw everything that offends them; I just want to point out to the people offending me how wrong they are ). It's not marketing per se that's the problem, IMO, it's some of the kinds of marketing that gets done.

We are all influenced by the context in which we learned martial arts and our experiences doing that. I already pointed out that my instrctor had a full time job and didn't really "need" to teach. He also did almost no advertising. For years his marketing consisted of a Yellow Pages ad and a mention in the flyer that the community center in which he runs classes. He did do many, many demonstrations at various schools, libraries, and some community activities but most of the "marketing" for his school was word of mouth. And it worked. The town he teaches in has about 41,000 people or so. He's taught easily thousands of people over the years and has an active student body of a bit over 100 (last time we discussed it he said 125 IIRC). That's a pretty good number for a part time operation in a city that size which also has about 8 other martial arts schools (half of which are TKD). Heck, he didn't even have a web site until a few years ago. But people keep coming because over the years (he and his wife have been teaching for over 40 years now) he's cultuvated a well-deserved reputation as being a great instructor, a great technician, and a great person. Ultimately, IMNSHO, an instructor is his best marketing strategy. If you're a jerk no amount of marketing is going to fix that problem.

I will say that in theory, I don't have a problem with media advertising. But I have seen very few examples of such advertising that didn't strike me as being contrived, an exhibition of the instructor's ego, or specifically geared at simply getting people in the door. Yes, I know that getting people in the door is the goal of marketing but I'd prefer to see advertising that doesn't smack me between the eyes and is so obvious about it. Of course, I'm old enough to remember when lawyers weren't allowed to advertise. Certain professions were expected to have a certain decorum about them. A certain dignity. (Sure there were ambulance chasers even then but we didn't have to see theor commercials on television.) In my naivete sometimes I think that martial arts instructors should emulate those characteristics in their lives and profession, too.

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

And yet, I think it is the marketing aspect of things that people find ... off-putting. It's because I have seen some people that run schools like a car dealership that I personally find some of the more over the top marketing offensive (on the flip side, I'm not of those people who wants to outlaw everything that offends them; I just want to point out to the people offending me how wrong they are ). It's not marketing per se that's the problem, IMO, it's some of the kinds of marketing that gets done.

....

In my naivete sometimes I think that martial arts instructors should emulate those characteristics in their lives and profession, too.

Marketing isn't necessarily cheesy, over-the-top, or even unseemly. You're a college-educated man, Chris, aren't you? You probably know publicity campaigns are carefully composed and targeted for their audiences. Good marketing/advertising can work when we don't even notice that it's there. It can be as old-fashioned as a tasteful business card printed on quality stock. It can be an informative website coded to modern browser capabilities so the user isn't forced to click around a lot to receive information mutually beneficial to both him and you. Or it can be something else, still tasteful but still creating an awareness of your product/service and eliciting a desire from others to come learn more about it.

That something else is what I suggest we (me anyway) think long and hard about. I don't do cheesy myself.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Marketing isn't necessarily cheesy, over-the-top, or even unseemly.

Oh, sure, it doesn't have to be. That's why I said, "I will say that in theory, I don't have a problem with media advertising. But I have seen very few examples of such advertising that didn't strike me as being contrived, an exhibition of the instructor's ego, or specifically geared at simply getting people in the door." The problem is I've seen so little martial arts marketing that isn't contrived, an exhibition of the instructor's ego, etc. I know one very well known Grand Master who had some down right horrible ads some years ago. I still shake my head when I think about them (in fact, I just shook my head thinking about them!).

You're a college-educated man, Chris, aren't you? You probably know publicity campaigns are carefully composed and targeted for their audiences. Good marketing/advertising can work when we don't even notice that it's there. It can be as old-fashioned as a tasteful business card printed on quality stock. It can be an informative website coded to modern browser capabilities so the user isn't forced to click around a lot to receive information mutually beneficial to both him and you. Or it can be something else, still tasteful but still creating an awareness of your product/service and eliciting a desire from others to come learn more about it.

Oh, I agree with you. I will say that I have seen not a few schools have very well done web sites (simple, easy to use, informative, etc.), and some well done business cards (the Special Assistant to the ITF President gave me his a few years ago and it was very nice, for example; well designed and elegant not cluttered). Unfortunately, the dross seems to far outweigh the good, you know? I am not entirely convinced that pop culture is a fitting means of promulgating martial arts and yet I see more than a few schools suggesting to their prospective students that their children will be knee-high Power Rangers if they just sign them up for their "Little Ninjas" class.

That something else is what I suggest we (me anyway) think long and hard about. I don't do cheesy myself.

Of this I have no doubt. It's not impossible to get a read of people from their posts here and on other BBS and that's certainly not the impression I get from what you've written. Like I said, I don't have a problem with martial arts marketing itself. I've just seen so little of it tastefully done. Which brings me back to your point about ad campaigns being targeted to specific audiences. I can only hope that the schools I've seen that seem to have ads and web sites that look like something from Kung-Fu theatre or has the instructor snarling in an appropriately viscious manner really work on educating the students they get that are attracted to that kind of thing in things like decorum, dignity, courtesy, eyc.

I hope that's what they do. But I'm not holding my breath.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Dirty Dog]

and this is where you are wrong

No, this is one place where our opinions differ. There's lots of gray between "right" and "wrong" and I'd encourage you to get over yourself.

IF we agree that the WTF style sparring gym is becoming more and more common then that image is the most likely to be seen by the general public. With me so far?

No. I don't see that schools which only teach Olympic sparring are all that common or becoming more common. I am quite close to the Olympic Training Center, and even right down the street from the OTC, the most common TKD school teaches... wait for it... the entire art.

with that image being the most commonly seen by the public, and it having the same name as the ART of TKD then the impression that WTF style sparring IS all that there is to TKD will become widespread

The general public doesn't see ANY image, since the general public couldn't care less about TKD, WC, JKD or any other martial art.

and IF we agree that the WTF style sparring is NOT the best representation of the ART of TKD it is undeniable that the general public will be seeing a one sided representation of what TKD is, and the general public wont know that there is a whole other art of tkd that includes more than bouncy kick sparring....

Nope. Don't agree there either. Even within my own family, the only ones who would know the difference are the ones who are training. The others? They can watch Olympic sparring, and say "wow, cool kicks" and recognise (without me telling them) that it's a sport, and therefore not going to allow the full range of techniques taught in the art.