Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?

[Sukerkin]

This has been my experience.

Sadly, it seems, I only know 'closed minded' martial artists, Dan .

TKD has it's own circles that it moves in I think where those that practise it are quite happy with it. Nothing wrong with that; people doing what they enjoy is a good thing. The pricing is another matter but that's up to the people that do it in the end. If they think it is worth it then they will pay for it.

The circles I move in are a bit more 'orthodox' I suppose is a good word for it. I train in a traditional Japanese Sword Art and I share a dojo with a school of Katori extraction.

Compare:

[video=youtube_share;cQB5Lc1C_a8]http://youtu.be/cQB5Lc1C_a8[/video]

and

[video=youtube_share;KXDdIMZfATU]http://youtu.be/KXDdIMZfATU[/video]

With

[video=youtube_share;eLz-sl1ZfBs]http://youtu.be/eLz-sl1ZfBs[/video]

You can see why it might be that I tend to think of TKD as a bit Johnny-come-lately and rather too 'commercial' for my tastes .

 

[Gnarlie]

Daniel, the MT what's new page has quoted you out of context

https://www.dropbox.com/s/59dc0yo6s7m3ccp/Screenshot_2013-03-15-17-37-58-1.png

Gnarlie

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel,
I posted something about TKD on my facebook the other day, and someone posted something very telling. He referred to it as "take your dough" ......just last week, i saw this same phrase on kenpotalk

thats TWICE in less than 2 weeks, from people totally unrelated to each other

the bad rep IS out there.

I didn't say it isn't out there. But certainly is not the overwhelming, ever present attitude that you imply that it is. So you saw two negative things about taekwondo in less than two weeks. How many positive things did you see during that same time? Did other people comment positively on your Facebook about your post?

In any case, your experience is not my experience. And I live in a very diverse, heavily populated area with a lot of MA schools and a lot of MA-ists. Taekwondo is not a laughing stock here. Quite the opposite. I don't know if you're familiar with Mark Malakoff, but his dojang http://www.kangsblackbeltacademy.com/SocialSite/home is in the same building where I teach kendo and fencing. He and I speak fairly regularly. He said that his school teaches Jhoon Rhee forms and American taekwondo, which I believe is what you practice. The school is huge, is constantly jumping, has a nice pro shop, and not a good, but a great reputation in town. When we talk TKD, he never trashes or disrespects Kukki taekwondo, the WTF, or taekwondo in the Olympics. He had probably five KKW schools within a ten mile radius of his own. Big schools. Two are owned by an eighth dan KJN and his son, one is owned by a 6th dan Korean national champion who owns a second school in another county, one is run by Marco Sies, a seven time kickboxing champ who trained with Bill Wallace if memory serves, and another is an old school that has a very good reputation (I don't know the KJN). Master Malakoff's school is as big or bigger than any of them and probably tops them in enrollment.

No. Olympic taekwondo is not ruining his repuation, costing him customers, or making him feel bad on facebook. Those five KKW schools aren't hurting either, and neither are other non TKD/TSD schools in the same area (there are several, including Kim's Traditional Studio on Redland Road in Rockville, five - seven miles from where I live).

If this guy can run that huge TKD school teaching what you say you practice and be not just successful, but hugely successful, and if those five KKW schools can be successful in this area year after year with so many other non TKD alternatives (in the same ten mile radius, there are two big wushu academies, Kicks Karate, Kim's Traditional Studio, a Machado BJJ school, a boxing gym, two HKD schools one Aikido school, Tomkins Karate in at least three rec. departments, one huge ninjutsu & karate school, one Han Mu Sool school, and several indy schools that just say 'karate' on the door), then clearly Olympic taekwondo isn't tainting the reputation of TKD here in the slightest.

And if you take it from a ten mile radius to a twenty mile radius, there are more KKW schools that do very well. All of these schools have been here for some time with the exception of Marco Sies, which opened up about two years ago in the middle of the recession. The rest have continued to prosper through a bad economy and other, more traditional businesses hitting the skids and in some cases, closing up.

I don't know what your enrollment problems are, and I don't even know that you actually have any. Last I heard, you weren't currently teaching due to being studying to enter the medical field (nursing if I recall). But if you are running a school, focus on running a good school and doing the best for your students instead of worrying about what schools that teach a program different from yours are doing. Better yet, if those schools are successful, take a look at what they're doing. Those owners would probably be successful no matter what art they taught, as the art isn't the formula for their success. If you feel that what they do is cheesy, then don't do it, but don't fault them for being successful and don't take your frustrations out by endlessly bashing others' arts.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel, the MT what's new page has quoted you out of context

https://www.dropbox.com/s/59dc0yo6s7m3ccp/Screenshot_2013-03-15-17-37-58-1.png

Gnarlie

That's hillarious.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

This is really off topic, but how much does the typical TKD school charge? Personally, I don't have a multi-tiered scale (i.e. no add on charges for "black belt" or "master" clubs and such). I charge a flat $50/month fee, which I feel is border line too cheap (I'm contemplating on raising the monthly dues in the future). This allows the students to attend 2 classes per week.

Keep in mind that I don't own my own space, I teach out of fitness center, so my overhead is extremely low. AND, this isn't my day job. I do it because I see value in it, and I love it!

 

[Twin Fist]

popular doesnt equal quality Daniel, everyone knew the twilight book were crap, but they still sold a crap ton of copies...

your denial of reality is just that, denial

but you got your opinions, and i have mine

 

[Twin Fist]

for that sort of set up, depending on the average income level in the area, thats about the right price i would say

This is really off topic, but how much does the typical TKD school charge? Personally, I don't have a multi-tiered scale (i.e. no add on charges for "black belt" or "master" clubs and such). I charge a flat $50/month fee, which I feel is border line too cheap (I'm contemplating on raising the monthly dues in the future). This allows the students to attend 2 classes per week.

Keep in mind that I don't own my own space, I teach out of fitness center, so my overhead is extremely low. AND, this isn't my day job. I do it because I see value in it, and I love it!

 

[Sukerkin]

That's refreshing to hear, Dr. Rush :sensei rei:.

An awful lot of TKD schools seem to be run purely as money-making exercises rather than for any love of the art and a desire to pass it on. There have been reports of ludicrous fees, especially for gradings, as these places have a reputation of being run as franchises - so somebody ailing the chain is getting rich out of teaching a martial art that, to many us, seems to have troubles not only in it's make-up but also in an all-too-fictional history. We've been over that ground a lot here at MT so I shall not rake over those coals again - for those that are interested, a good search of the site for about five years ago will yield some very good discourses on the matter.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sadly, it seems, I only know 'closed minded' martial artists, Dan .

TKD has it's own circles that it moves in I think where those that practise it are quite happy with it. Nothing wrong with that; people doing what they enjoy is a good thing. The pricing is another matter but that's up to the people that do it in the end. If they think it is worth it then they will pay for it.

The circles I move in are a bit more 'orthodox' I suppose is a good word for it. I train in a traditional Japanese Sword Art and I share a dojo with a school of Katori extraction.

Compare:

[video=youtube_share;cQB5Lc1C_a8]http://youtu.be/cQB5Lc1C_a8[/video]

and

[video=youtube_share;KXDdIMZfATU]http://youtu.be/KXDdIMZfATU[/video]

With

[video=youtube_share;eLz-sl1ZfBs]http://youtu.be/eLz-sl1ZfBs[/video]

You can see why it might be that I tend to think of TKD as a bit Johnny-come-lately and rather too 'commercial' for my tastes .

Sure, I get that. Different strokes. And truth be told, the first two videos would be more likely to get me through the door to train. The third, not so much. As I said, TKD as seen in the Olympics isn't my preference either.

But let me ask you this: If you learned that an associate held a fourth dan in taekwondo, without knowing what org. issued it, would you not respect the time and training that a fourth dan in the art represents? Even if it was an art that you have no interest in?

 

[dancingalone]

This is really off topic, but how much does the typical TKD school charge? Personally, I don't have a multi-tiered scale (i.e. no add on charges for "black belt" or "master" clubs and such). I charge a flat $50/month fee, which I feel is border line too cheap (I'm contemplating on raising the monthly dues in the future). This allows the students to attend 2 classes per week.

Keep in mind that I don't own my own space, I teach out of fitness center, so my overhead is extremely low. AND, this isn't my day job. I do it because I see value in it, and I love it!

My competitors and I charge in the $100-$150 per month range. This is in the commercial studio space with facilities and other added amenities to maintain. I offer the chance to train up to 8 times a week for adults (1 hr evening class M-S and a lunchtime class on T and TH).

I'm doing OK. Most people that walk in the door don't even bat an eye at the price quote, though I've given discounts to a handful that said they couldn't pay the full rate.

 

[dancingalone]

An awful lot of TKD schools seem to be run purely as money-making exercises rather than for any love of the art and a desire to pass it on. There have been reports of ludicrous fees, especially for gradings, as these places have a reputation of being run as franchises - so somebody ailing the chain is getting rich out of teaching a martial art that, to many us, seems to have troubles not only in it's make-up but also in an all-too-fictional history. We've been over that ground a lot here at MT so I shall not rake over those coals again - for those that are interested, a good search of the site for about five years ago will yield some very good discourses on the matter.

<Shrugs> My dojang is my livelihood these days. I offer a service that each of my customers must decide whether they are willing or able to pay for. I don't feel badly about this. I hope that some of these customers will become students, if the distinction makes sense to anyone reading on.

Certainly my karate students whom I do not currently charge at all appreciate the chance to train in a nicely furnished setting. Before I purchased my business, my karate students studied and practiced at my home dojo and this meant they didn't have nearly round the clock availability as they do now.

 

[Gnarlie]

But let me ask you this: If you learned that an associate held a fourth dan in taekwondo, without knowing what org. issued it, would you not respect the time and training that a fourth dan in the art represents? Even if it was an art that you have no interest in?

I think you've hit the crux of the problem there - we are too quick to judge others based on the art, the style, the organisation and especially the rank, rather than considering without prejudice what the individual knows and is capable of doing.

We should try and avoid judging others I suppose, but it seems unavoidable. If you knew you were being judged as an individual based on someone's preconceived ideas, wouldn't you say you want and deserve the chance to prove those preconceptions wrong?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

popular doesnt equal quality Daniel, everyone knew the twilight book were crap, but they still sold a crap ton of copies...

Apparently not "everyone knew," as they still sold incredibly well.

And why were they crap? From the standpoint of a literary critic, why were they crap? Have you read them? What made them crap? Can you actually articulate it? Or do you actually know? Can you get past the trappings of vampires and werewolves and examine the actual story, literary style, and the quality of the storytelling?

I haven't read them. I know the gist of the story and the audience to which it was aimed. I have no idea if the books were any good or not. And I don't care; I'm not a teenaged girl, so I didn't read them.

your denial of reality is just that, denial

Not true. You don't even have the decency to give an articulate response. I gave you a very factual post. And all you can do is be insulting. In this thread, you accuse me of being delusional and called me a fanboy. The tone of your responses to both myself and to others is purposefully antagonistic.

I have not called you names. I have not intimated that you are delusional, stupid, driking Koolaid, or any other derrogetory remarks. Nor have I dismissed any of your statments with snarky comments. I have taken the time to give thoughtful and respectful responses to you. I have also given credit when you've made what I thought were accurate observations.

I ask that you maintain the same level of politeness towards me.

but you got your opinions, and i have mine

That is true of everyone.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

<Shrugs> My dojang is my livelihood these days. I offer a service that each of my customers must decide whether they are willing or able to pay for. I don't feel badly about this. I hope that some of these customers will become students, if the distinction makes sense to anyone reading on.

Certainly my karate students whom I do not currently charge at all appreciate the chance to train in a nicely furnished setting. Before I purchased my business, my karate students studied and practiced at my home dojo and this meant they didn't have nearly round the clock availability as they do now.

First off, although we've never trained together, the way you present and conduct yourself on here, as well as your knowledge, I have no doubt your students are getting what they pay for.

I think it makes a significant difference IF, running a martial arts school is your livelihood. It typically means you offer significantly more times/ opportunities to train. More availibility, etc. Not to mention more overhead.

My KJN charges SIGNIFICANTLY more than I do at the bon kwan, but it is his livelihood. I have nothing wrong with that.

I'm not big fan of the "black belt clubs" or the birthday parties, or the daycares, etc.. . But that is strictly my preference. I have the luxury of not needing those 'add ons' as it isn't my day job.

 

[Dirty Dog]

popular doesnt equal quality Daniel, everyone knew the twilight book were crap, but they still sold a crap ton of copies...

I could be wrong, but you seem to operate under the assumption that your opinion is, or should be, shared by the entire world. It ought to be painfully obvious that "everyone" didn't consider them "crap", or they (and the movies) would not have been so wildly popular.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That's refreshing to hear, Dr. Rush :sensei rei:.

An awful lot of TKD schools seem to be run purely as money-making exercises rather than for any love of the art and a desire to pass it on. There have been reports of ludicrous fees, especially for gradings, as these places have a reputation of being run as franchises - so somebody ailing the chain is getting rich out of teaching a martial art that, to many us, seems to have troubles not only in it's make-up but also in an all-too-fictional history. We've been over that ground a lot here at MT so I shall not rake over those coals again - for those that are interested, a good search of the site for about five years ago will yield some very good discourses on the matter.

This is the sort of thing that I said hurts the reputation of taekwondo early on in this thread. I have said it many times over the years. It has hurt other arts as well, but it hit taekwondo a lot harder due to taekwondo's popularity.

 

[Sukerkin]

I should make sure my cards are visible on the table when we talk about the pricing of instruction - I am not in favour of anyone using martial arts as a means of making a living. I'm not just pointing a finger at TKD as the sole 'miscreants' in that regard .

By all means cover your costs but the impetus to instruct should be a love of the art and a desire to preserve it and pass it on. It's a peculiarly quirky idea to hold in the modern age I know, to think it is wrong to make money from a skill that you have and I am aware of how odd it must sound, especially those with more commercialised ears. But it's how my contact with the martial arts has guided me so that I feel, however illogically, that the purity of the art is sullied and lost if it becomes a commercial venture.

 

[Dirty Dog]

This is really off topic, but how much does the typical TKD school charge? Personally, I don't have a multi-tiered scale (i.e. no add on charges for "black belt" or "master" clubs and such). I charge a flat $50/month fee, which I feel is border line too cheap (I'm contemplating on raising the monthly dues in the future). This allows the students to attend 2 classes per week.

Keep in mind that I don't own my own space, I teach out of fitness center, so my overhead is extremely low. AND, this isn't my day job. I do it because I see value in it, and I love it!

There are soooo many variables at work here... Even something as simple as location - some areas have higher rents, so the charges will have to be higher.

We are a YMCA-based program, so we pay no rent as such, but the fees are split with the Y. Costs are $40 per month for Y members, $60 for non-members. Each week we offer four 1 hour classes (two each on Tuesday and Thursday) and one 90 minute class (Saturday). We are discussing the possibility of adding a 1.5-2 hour class on Fridays for advanced poomsae, sparring and self-defense training.
We don't babysit, we don't do birthday parties (well, we celebrate our students birthdays, but I think that's different), we don't have any clubs and we don't have mandatory testing schedules.

 

[dancingalone]

I should make sure my cards are visible on the table when we talk about the pricing of instruction - I am not in favour of anyone using martial arts as a means of making a living. I'm not just pointing a finger at TKD as the sole 'miscreants' in that regard .

By all means cover your costs but the impetus to instruct should be a love of the art and a desire to preserve it and pass it on. It's a peculiarly quirky idea to hold in the modern age I know, to think it is wrong to make money from a skill that you have and I am aware of how odd it must sound, especially those with more commercialised ears. But it's how my contact with the martial arts has guided me so that I feel, however illogically, that the purity of the art is sullied and lost if it becomes a commercial venture.

I understand where you are coming from. To give you perspective, I hold dan rank also in aikido where dojos are often operated under a nonprofit charter and fees are kept as low as possible in keeping with that spirit.

But with that said, aikido owes a lot in heritage to its parent art, Daito-ryu Aikijutsu, and we know that Taekeda Sokaku, an excellent swordsman who combined the various empty hand skills he learned and taught them under the Daito-Ryu umbrella, traveled throughout Japan, earning his living from giving lessons. He kept extensive logs of who he taught, what he taught, and even how much he charged. Funny stuff you might think from a man who came from a samurai background where money was traditionally scorned.

I think some of the same ethos might be found in koryu arts such as the one you study, Sukerkin. So which model is the 'correct' one? Is it OK that we follow the example of Takeda Sensei who very definitely charged money for his knowledge? This is a question more for thought and reflection rather than meant to ask or challenge anyone.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I should make sure my cards are visible on the table when we talk about the pricing of instruction - I am not in favour of anyone using martial arts as a means of making a living. I'm not just pointing a finger at TKD as the sole 'miscreants' in that regard .

By all means cover your costs but the impetus to instruct should be a love of the art and a desire to preserve it and pass it on. It's a peculiarly quirky idea to hold in the modern age I know, to think it is wrong to make money from a skill that you have and I am aware of how odd it must sound, especially those with more commercialised ears. But it's how my contact with the martial arts has guided me so that I feel, however illogically, that the purity of the art is sullied and lost if it becomes a commercial venture.

It is neither right nor wrong to feel as you do, but you're not the only person that I have heard express such a view. I respect it, though I don't fully agree. It could just as easily be argued that love of the arts prompts one to pour their life into it. Is this not the most common advice given to young people in regards to a career: Do what you love?

And did not the "masters of old" receive income from their craft? Before the days of belts and blackbelt clubs, prominent masters did, in fact, charge money and make their living teaching their art. Not all, but many did. And not just in Asia.

As one who does not derive his sustenance from instruction, I can say that I enjoy the freedom that I have; I am unbound by the whims of the market or of parents who think I should run my class differently. I don't use belts, as I run a fencing school, so I don't have to deal with that either.

On the other hand, if I had the opportunity to do nothing but run a fencing school, I would likely take it.

I don't judge a commercial school owner's motivations. I look at the content of his or her classes and how they conduct themselves in a commercial environment and decide from there if it is a school that I would either want to be a part of or would recommend to others.