Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?

[Gnarlie]

As a mere point of clarification, there have been some in the past that have conflated the two to an extent. Something on the lines that developing distance awareness, timing, speed, and power will help you in any setting, including SD.

There's a lot of truth to that statement by the way, but the people who insist that you are what you train have a sound argument too. Anyway, not really interested in arguing the sport vs. sd thing, so bowing out if anyone wants to discuss that particular tangent.

Agree. There are also elements of rugby, football, squash etc that can help you with SD, for example the ability to coordinate your limbs independently and footwork. Yeah the sport/SD thing is done, I just wanted to make clear that WTF sport and KKW TKD are not necessarily one and the same. I'm done now.

 

[Gorilla]

Some aspects of all athletic endeavors are helpful in self-defense! Even SPORT TKD.....Yet that does not make them self defense!

 

[dancingalone]

Some aspects of all athletic endeavors are helpful in self-defense! Even SPORT TKD.....Yet that does not make them self defense!

True enough. To be clear, I don't disagree with this statement myself. I was merely mentioning that in fact some have in fact juxtaposed the two in previous discussions, where they state that training Olympic rules TKD will make you an effective street fighter in of itself due to developing speed, timing, etc.

 

[chrispillertkd]

WTF competition is a game. KKW TKD and it's distant cousins remain martial arts in my view. WTF sport and KKW TKD are as separate and distinct as fencing and martial swordsmanship, with just as great a difference. That's my point.

Gnarlie

But people who teach and practice fencing don't also go around saying their "swordsmen." Many KKW Taekwondo people do. There's nothing left of the fencing syllabus once you've got fencing competition. That isn't the case for KKW Taekwondo. Fencing doesn't take "martial swordsmanship" and have you compete with it under a rule set. There really just isn't a parallel here at all.

If there really is such a dramatic break between WTF competitions and KKW Taekwondo then it might behove the WTF to change the name of what they're doing from Taekwondo to something else. Otherwise you're going to continue to have people bring up the same critiques of its competition rules and lump that in with the KKW. If they're really different things then you have no one to blame for such confusion except the WTF and KKW.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Twin Fist]

see, 1) i dont like to live that way, i preferre to address my own problems, not put them off on other people.

and 2) you're a nurse, i am a nurse, i thought some professional courtesy might be enough.

and 3) you are still being sarcastic to the point of being rude.

Are you feeling bad or do you just not like me very much? mind you, i dont give a crap either way, but i like to know where i stand.

If I posted something rude, by all means hit the RTM button. The rules apply to me just as much as to you.



AH, I get it. When you say "100%" it doesn't really mean "100%".

If we're going to communicate, it helps if we use the standard meanings of words, rather than our own personal meanings.

Personally, I have never seena school "where they dont learn anything but sport sparring and maybe a kata or two", but I wouldn't ever claim that means there's no such thing (that would require me to say something about 100%, when I know it's not true...). But, since you claim to know of such a school, please tell me, specifically, what school it is. Shouldn't be difficult since (according to you) it's such a common phenomenon.

Odd, though, that the most sport-oriented posters here have made it quite clear that they certainly do not train in a place such as you describe.

 

[Twin Fist]

Actually, it isn't. The subject of the thread is the question, "Has Olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?" I've seen a few answers in the postitive, but none of those posters have actually said how.

no, several people, myself included have said, in very clear terms HOW we think it has effected the reputation of TKD as a whole.

You just dont agree, so you dont see it as valid.

your opinion doesnt invalidate thiers, it just means you disagree.

You used to be much more open minded and much less KKW fanboy-ish. What happened?

 

[Twin Fist]

Agreed Gnarlie.....Olympic Sport Tkd is a sport. It is not a self def art it is a sport pure and simple.

None of the Sport TKD people on this BBS have ever claimed any different.

then call it something else

 

[Gnarlie]

then call it something else

It is called something else. WTF rather than KKW or ITF or KTA or TAGB or TexMexRex.

Gnarlie

 

[Twin Fist]

as long as it is called TKD, the problem still exists.

if i make my own soft drink, but call it coke, the coke drinkers will have a problem with it. and the population that samples my new confection will, if they dont know any better, think my drink, for better or worse, IS coke

but it isnt.

 

[Dirty Dog]

see, 1) i dont like to live that way, i preferre to address my own problems, not put them off on other people.

So what problem are you trying to address by making false claims?

and 2) you're a nurse, i am a nurse, i thought some professional courtesy might be enough.

Irrelevent here, but if you talk to patients the way you talk to people here, I feel sorry for them.

and 3) you are still being sarcastic to the point of being rude.

Don't much like it when someone talks to you the way you talk to others, eh? Might be a lesson there...

Are you feeling bad or do you just not like me very much? mind you, i dont give a crap either way, but i like to know where i stand.

You're sarcastic and rude, but gripe when someone speaks to you in the same tone. You make false statements and don't see why that's a problem.

I would personally very much like to see the ruleset used in the Olympics changed to allow more of the full art of taekwondo to be shown. The SPORT of taekwondo is what it is, and is only a subset of the art. Neither detracts from the other, and the assumption that someone who competes in the sport side cannot also practice the art is foolish. Posting things that are incorrect (references to WTF schools, which don't exist) or outright lies is not helpful to the discussion.

 

[Dirty Dog]

as long as it is called TKD, the problem still exists.

So you'll be changing the name of the art you practice then, and stop calling it TKD?

 

[Gnarlie]

Poking someone with a pointy piece of metal in a face helmet is called fencing. So is building fences. Nobody mixes them up, because in the eyes of anyone with eyes they are clearly distinct and separate.

What you studied as TKD and this sport are separate. Kukkiwon TKD and this sport are separate. The sport is one of the many types of sparring open to you if you study KKW TKD. It's not the be all end all. People aren't stupid, and in my experience if you clearly articulate to them that there is a difference and what the difference is, then there's no problem.

The problem only arises when you a) don't articulate the difference clearly enough or b) they have already made up their mind and there's nothing you can do to change it. In the first case, you've only got yourself to blame, and in the latter case, well, there's nothing you can do, but why does it matter what such narrow-minded people think about what you do? It matters what you think about what you do, and that's all.

 

[Twin Fist]

So what problem are you trying to address by making false claims?
I didnt make any false claims

Irrelevent here, but if you talk to patients the way you talk to people here, I feel sorry for them.
personal insult AGAIN

Don't much like it when someone talks to you the way you talk to others, eh? Might be a lesson there...
personal insult again

You're sarcastic and rude, but gripe when someone speaks to you in the same tone. You make false statements and don't see why that's a problem.
several personal insults

I would personally very much like to see the ruleset used in the Olympics changed to allow more of the full art of taekwondo to be shown. The SPORT of taekwondo is what it is, and is only a subset of the art. Neither detracts from the other,
in your opinion, not in mine

and the assumption that someone who competes in the sport side cannot also practice the art is foolish.
No one said that CANT, i said they generally DONT, and that is, in my experience, true

Posting things that are incorrect (references to WTF schools, which don't exist) or outright lies is not helpful to the discussion
now you are just outright lying about me. Ralph talked about the exact same thing, as in the types of schools that teach ONLY sport sparring, but somehow I am lying....is he lying too? or are you just making **** up??

seriously, Did you BUY that moderators tag?

 

[Twin Fist]

it has been stated on this very board, by many, including some very high ranked folks, that if you are not doing WTF KKW, you are not doing TKD. so you can bet that that message gets passed to the potential customer. thecustomer thinks thats true, and they sgn up little johnny, thinking little johnny will learn some self defense.

but he doesnt, not in the sport focused schools.

THATS THE PROBLEM

plus they wear BB's, so the public sees that, thinks it means what it is SUPPOSED to mean

THATS THE PROBLEM

I would be a full supporter of the WTF style of sparring, if, in thier tourny's they didnt call it TKD and didnt wear BB's

Poking someone with a pointy piece of metal in a face helmet is called fencing. So is building fences. Nobody mixes them up, because in the eyes of anyone with eyes they are clearly distinct and separate.

What you studied as TKD and this sport are separate. Kukkiwon TKD and this sport are separate. The sport is one of the many types of sparring open to you if you study KKW TKD. It's not the be all end all. People aren't stupid, and in my experience if you clearly articulate to them that there is a difference and what the difference is, then there's no problem.

The problem only arises when you a) don't articulate the difference clearly enough or b) they have already made up their mind and there's nothing you can do to change it. In the first case, you've only got yourself to blame, and in the latter case, well, there's nothing you can do, but why does it matter what such narrow-minded people think about what you do? It matters what you think about what you do, and that's all.

 

[Dirty Dog]

yes, i can see how a 100% stand up art that is 90% kicks would prepare someone for ground work.....................

So what problem are you trying to address by making false claims?
I didnt make any false claims

There you go. I quoted it to refresh your memory.
TKD is neither 100% standup nor 90% kicks. A false claim. Posted by...let's see... oh, that would be YOU...

Posting things that are incorrect (references to WTF schools, which don't exist) or outright lies is not helpful to the discussion
now you are just outright lying about me. Ralph talked about the exact same thing, as in the types of schools that teach ONLY sport sparring, but somehow I am lying....is he lying too? or are you just making **** up??

Do you deny refering "WTF schools", which do not exist? I can provide another quote, if your memory needs refreshing again.
And of course, Ralph was never silly enough to claim that WTF schools exist, nor that TKD is "100% standup", nor that it is "90% kicks".

seriously, Did you BUY that moderators tag?

You'll have to ask Bob about that...

 

[Dirty Dog]

it has been stated on this very board, by many, including some very high ranked folks, that if you are not doing WTF KKW, you are not doing TKD.

Again, a claim I'd very much like to see supported.

 

[Dirty Dog]

We have quite a few schools over here that only teach sport sparring. No form, no self defence just wff competition sparring.

Interesting. I've never seen such a place myself. How big are they? Do they claim to be teaching a martial art, or are they up front about what they're teaching?

 

[Twin Fist]

Lookie here "Dog"

TKD is neither 100% standup nor 90% kicks. A false claim. Posted by...let's see... oh, that would be YOU...
your lack of reading comprehension is showing, since I was CLEARLY referring to WTF style, you know, the SUBJECT OF THE WHOLE THREAD??? WTF style is 100% stand up and 90% kicks....

I was right, you can admitt it. But you prob wont

Do you deny refering "WTF schools", which do not exist? I can provide another quote, if your memory needs refreshing again.
I said that schools exist that teach only wtf style sparring, and they do. Ralph even backed me up on that. So either your memory is bad, your comprehension is bad, or you are just being obtuse

you lose "dog"

 

[Twin Fist]

Again, a claim I'd very much like to see supported.

puuni said it multiple times. So did Dan Cole...both high ranked TKD people. Not my fault you didnt see it

me=right
you=wrong

AGAIN

 

[Twin Fist]

I am starting to get irritated at the intentional provocation going on in this thread so i am out.