Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?

[Cyriacus]

No idea to be honest. I have heard about them through mates who do tkd and advertising material Ive seen. I imagine they appeal to students whose main goal is to compete. Its a place they can go and focus soley on that acpect of the art.

The only one ive seen was at the PCYC - Considering the nature of PCYCs, that shouldnt be surprising. It had a fair few folks there though.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The only one ive seen was at the PCYC - Considering the nature of PCYCs, that shouldnt be surprising. It had a fair few folks there though.

yeah I saw one once at a PCYC (a long time ago though). Probably the same one

 

[ralphmcpherson]

How big are these schools? I think in the US the sport only model is financially unfeasible,with rare exceptions.

I must admit, if either of my two kids were so exceptionally talented at sports tkd that they had a realistic chance of having real success in the sport I would probably rather they train at a place that focuses soley on the sport. I wouldnt want them wasting valuable time breaking timber or learning self defence moves. So I can see there is a place for schools like these. I imagine they would also attract teenages going through their "competitive years" where they just want to compete as much as possible and arent as into the whole "martial art" side of things.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I must admit, if either of my two kids were so exceptionally talented at sports tkd that they had a realistic chance of having real success in the sport I would probably rather they train at a place that focuses soley on the sport. I wouldnt want them wasting valuable time breaking timber or learning self defence moves. So I can see there is a place for schools like these. I imagine they would also attract teenages going through their "competitive years" where they just want to compete as much as possible and arent as into the whole "martial art" side of things.

I agree. I think it would be incredibly difficult as an instructor to have enough "top level" competitors from one locale to make it possible to earn a living doing it. If you made a name for yourself as an athlete or coach I suppose it would be possible to draw people from a bigger pool.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

They call falling down if perceived to be intentional or multiple times!!!!

It happens at all levels local, national and international!

If touch your hand to the ground while kicking you will get a penalty!

Personally, I think that if you fall down while delivering the kick, you shouldn't receive any points. Whether or not it is intentional is irrelevant. It simply looks bad, and if it is intentional, it actually looks worse.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And i was referring to the sport school, where they dont learn anything but sport sparring and maybe a kata or two.

Schools like that simply don't exist in this area, probably in this state, but I'm not willing to go that far. Suffice it to say that I've never seen one. I've seen some lousy schools, but I have not seen any, anywhere that conform to the model you describe.

That IS the subject of the thread after all.

Actually, it isn't. The subject of the thread is the question, "Has Olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?"

I've seen a few answers in the postitive, but none of those posters have actually said how.

They've said why Olympic Taekwondo doesn't appeal to them/look like what they're doing/their kid doesn't recognize it as taekwondo/isn't self defense, all of which may be true and accurate (it doesn't appeal to everyone, doesn't look like the sparring in all TKD schools, isn't what everyone does, and some people who don't practice it are unlikely to recognize it, and no fight sport is the same as self defense), but has no relation to the repuation of the art.

The existence, quality, or viability of sport only schools would actually be a different subject.

And just because your school wasnt like that, and my school wasnt like that, lets not be stupid and pretend no one is like that.

None the schools where I have trained have been like this either. Have you actually seen schools like this in any quantity? Or do you just hear about them? Serious question, no sarcasm.

I've never actually seen one. I've seen some great schools, some lousy schools, and one great school morph into an overpriced child care center, but I have never seen would amount to a WTF gym.

MDK isnt like that, the Texas style of TKD isnt like that, but i wasnt speaking to ALL of TKD, i was speaking to the WTF schools....

And that's the rub. There are schools that teach sparring and have students who compete in WTF sanctioned tournaments. But while there is a KKW certification program for schools, so far as I know, there is no such program in the WTF, which would mean that there are not any "WTF schools" to speak to.

I don't know about other parts of the US, but a sport only school would not be financially viable in this area. Even a school with an elite team and a gold medalist for a coach would have a very difficult time surviving here.

 

[Gnarlie]

Sport only schools do exist in the UK, and in my view that's no bad thing. They feed the tounament circuit and the elite athlete training programmes. These people recognise that what they are doing is a sport, and schools like this contribute greatly to the UK's success on the international circuit. Where's the issue? Those who want a full tkd syllabus, like me, can still find it.

Those fencers really detract from the reputation of general swordsmanship, too.

Gnarlie

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sport only schools do exist in the UK, and in my view that's no bad thing. They feed the tounament circuit and the elite athlete training programmes. These people recognise that what they are doing is a sport, and schools like this contribute greatly to the UK's success on the international circuit. Where's the issue? Those who want a full tkd syllabus, like me, can still find it.

Good and bad are relative terms, depending on you're perspective, but I agree with you.

Those fencers really detract from the reputation of general swordsmanship, too.

Yes, I've seen that argument as well. I disagree. I have participated in sport fencing on and off over the years and find it to be very enjoyable. While I tend to be more classically minded, I think that it is great that people still fence. The format is less important than the fact that people are fencing.

 

[Gnarlie]

Good and bad are relative terms, depending on you're perspective, but I agree with you.


Yes, I've seen that argument as well. I disagree. I have participated in sport fencing on and off over the years and find it to be very enjoyable. While I tend to be more classically minded, I think that it is great that people still fence. The format is less important than the fact that people are fencing.

That was semi sarcasm about the fencing, I was trying to illustrate that sport TKD and the full TKD syllabus are as different as sport fencing and swordsmanship. Or sport fencing and building actual fences, for that matter.

But I am in no way saying that that is a negative thing. Horses for courses, strokes for folks etc.

Gnarlie

 

[Jaeimseu]

Good and bad are relative terms, depending on you're perspective, but I agree with you.


Yes, I've seen that argument as well. I disagree. I have participated in sport fencing on and off over the years and find it to be very enjoyable. While I tend to be more classically minded, I think that it is great that people still fence. The format is less important than the fact that people are fencing.

Fencing is terrible. They bounce around with one hand behind them and they don't seem to have any takedown defense. Oh, and they don't punch to the face!

I think fencing has probably been every bit as damaging to tkd's reputation as Olympic competition.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Fencing is terrible. They bounce around with one hand behind them and they don't seem to have any takedown defense. Oh, and they don't punch to the face!

Well, if you don't mind being black carded you can.

 

[Cyriacus]

Well, if you don't mind being black carded you can.

So if i learn fencing i can just grab someones floppy stick thing and punch them in their face?

 

[Gorilla]

Fencing is terrible. They bounce around with one hand behind them and they don't seem to have any takedown defense. Oh, and they don't punch to the face!

I think fencing has probably been every bit as damaging to tkd's reputation as Olympic competition.

Now that is funny!!!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So if i learn fencing i can just grab someones floppy stick thing and punch them in their face?

You may attempt it. Use of the off hand to deflect, grab, or in any way manipulate an opponent's blade is prohibited and will result in appropriate action. Punching them in the face would mean ejection from the match and forteiture, and may result in other, possibly longer lasting measures as well.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Fencing is terrible. They bounce around with one hand behind them and they don't seem to have any takedown defense. Oh, and they don't punch to the face!

I think fencing has probably been every bit as damaging to tkd's reputation as Olympic competition.

Well, if fencing in any way presented itself as teaching a martial art you might have a parallel here. But really, it's not the same thing unless you're going to argue that KKW Taekwondo is so far removed from its origin as a martial art as to be only worthwhile as a sporting event. I don't know, maybe that's your position or that of the KKW. But when I fenced in high school there was no sort of pretension that we were learning - or being taught - anything that would be applicable to using an actual sword. It was a game, that's all.

YMMV as far as your experience with fencing.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gnarlie]

Well, if fencing in any way presented itself as teaching a martial art you might have a parallel here. But really, it's not the same thing unless you're going to argue that KKW Taekwondo is so far removed from its origin as a martial art as to be only worthwhile as a sporting event. I don't know, maybe that's your position or that of the KKW. But when I fenced in high school there was no sort of pretension that we were learning - or being taught - anything that would be applicable to using an actual sword. It was a game, that's all.

YMMV as far as your experience with fencing.

Pax,

Chris

WTF competition is a game. KKW TKD and it's distant cousins remain martial arts in my view. WTF sport and KKW TKD are as separate and distinct as fencing and martial swordsmanship, with just as great a difference. That's my point.

Gnarlie

 

[Gorilla]

WTF competition is a game. KKW TKD and it's distant cousins remain martial arts in my view. WTF sport and KKW TKD are as separate and distinct as fencing and martial swordsmanship, with just as great a difference. That's my point.

Gnarlie[/

Agreed Gnarlie.....Olympic Sport Tkd is a sport. It is not a self def art it is a sport pure and simple.

None of the Sport TKD people on this BBS have ever claimed any different.

Distant cousins at best!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Boxing is different. There are no points awarded for a good punch. It's either KO or an all around better performance.

Not true.

In TKD you stand there with those shields on you, and if you place a kick on your opponent's torso it's 1:0. That's enough to turn it into a very hesitant, coy affair with only the occasional half-assed offensive attempt.

I suppose it depends on how you define "coy" and "hesitant." Since we're talking about Olympic taekwondo (taekwondo in the Olympics) I will agree to disagree with the "occasional half-assed offensive attempt" remark.

Here is a match at the 2004 Olympics between Korea and Greece:

Nothing hesitant, coy, or half assed about any of it. The Korean athlete wins by KO. My only criticism of the match was his falling down after scoring.

Anyway, I've seen matches in other fight sports between high level athletes that are not unending slugfests or constant action. Any fight sport has a mental game to it, and any good fighter knows that just blindly and abruptly charging in is foolish.

Watch it.

Link it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But when I fenced in high school there was no sort of pretension that we were learning - or being taught - anything that would be applicable to using an actual sword. It was a game, that's all.

If you were taught right of way and how to properly parry, thrust, feint, disengage, cut over, bind, glide, expel, envelope or beat, then you were taught quite a bit that would be applicable to using an actual sword.

 

[dancingalone]

Agreed Gnarlie.....Olympic Sport Tkd is a sport. It is not a self def art it is a sport pure and simple.

None of the Sport TKD people on this BBS have ever claimed any different.

Distant cousins at best!

As a mere point of clarification, there have been some in the past that have conflated the two to an extent. Something on the lines that developing distance awareness, timing, speed, and power will help you in any setting, including SD.

There's a lot of truth to that statement by the way, but the people who insist that you are what you train have a sound argument too. Anyway, not really interested in arguing the sport vs. sd thing, so bowing out if anyone wants to discuss that particular tangent.