Hapkido Kwans

[Kodanjaclay]

Mr. Hackworth,

Is it true that there will be an anouncement by Oh, Se-Lim that some of the American "grandmasters" who claim high ranking KHF rank, will be exposed as not having legitimate rank from the KHF, by its president?

In particular, I believe that one of the patrons of this very site will be one mentioned by name by him? If this is the case, then the public needs to know. Politics are one thing. Fraud is quite another, and quite unethical.

If we are going to hold ourselves out to be professionals, then we need to act like it, and not defraud anyone. Though there are bad apples in each industry, we are supposedly teaching a better way of life, and kinda have a sacred trust with the public, as it tends to be naive.

 

[Richard]

Frank, the names of these people will be publicly announced during the Oh Se Lim seminar October 24-26 in Ocoee, Florida. After that they will be announced on the Martial Arts News Show on the martial arts radio network at www.martialartsradionetwork.com . These people have run out of places to hide. No matter what false documents they have show their students, the world will know the truth about them after this event. They were all contacted and given an amnest period to actually join so that they could train and earn recognized ranking through one of the Kwans or even the KHF headquarters, but most of them are still hanging on to thier lies that they have been using for several years. Segments of the Hapkido community have been very supportive of these clowns in the past but I am sure the treatment they will get after being exposes will be very unforgiving.
:soapbox:

 

[miguksaram]

Mst Whalen,

Your from the NE area right?

Mst Hackworth,

You mentioned that one of the frauds was from the NE. You wouldn't be talking about Mst. Whalen would you? Wow I hope not.:shrug:

 

[greendragon]

Master Whalen a fraud??? Ha ha ha, I have known Master Whalen for over 11 years now, have been on the mat with him, have trained under him and started my Hapkido training under one of his first generation students in 1988,, IF anyone on here believes he is a fraud all you would have to do is go train with him,, take a class or just hop on the mat with him, then you will know for yourself. He is easy to find. His Hapkido is done on the mat, not on a radio show, or by the keyboard, he isn't an "administrator" he just works out and stays in shape by doing the Hapkido he loves! I guess his Hapkido is alot closer to his heart than his wallet or ego?
No offense to anyone on here but to tell you the truth I couldn't care less about anyone affiliated with the KHF, I just plain don't care. I DO Hapkido, I don't talk about it, sell it, buy it, administer it, DJ it, or anything else. I couldn't care less if Jesus Christ was a KHF member, if HE didn't get on the mat instead of in front of the camera I wouldn't care about his opinion either. So if someone I don't know from Adam "tells" me someone who I've worked out and known for over a decade is a fraud, I should believe them,, come folks aren't we grown up now! Hapkido is not something you talk about it is something you DO, everyday,, it is just that simple and if you are not DOING it then maybe you missed the main idea about it in the first place...

Michael Tomlinson

 

[Kodanjaclay]

How is it that someone who teaches Hapkido 5 days a week, is not doing Hapkido? From what I understand there are those who claim KHF rank, who do not have it, and irrespective of their skill, that is fraud. Period. Don't believe me? Take it to court and find out for yourself. There were alot of people I trained with, including Koreans, that were impressive until I met some of the KHF people at Richard Hackworth's school. We are talking about bodyguards for the president of the ROK. Now if that is not someone qualified, then who is? People who have done it all their lives don''t know it? Come on Mike. How would you feel if one of your students suddenly claimed to more about your subject that you teach than you, and was supported, but not sanctioned by the state. Its exactly the same principle.

 

[miguksaram]

Originally posted by Kodanjaclay
From what I understand there are those who claim KHF rank, who do not have it, and irrespective of their skill, that is fraud.

And there are those who claim Grandmastery when in fact they are barely old enough to hold their master position. Yet we don't call that fraud, we call that misrepresentation.

There are those that claim they want to unify HKD, however, they look down upon all those who aren't in their organization. They place lies on their website.....ooops...I'm sorry they place half truths in their website. They place pictures in magazines saying they were in a Grandmaster meeting, when in fact they showed up at the last minute with a camera and their Sunday-go-to-church suit and take a picture. There are those who claim friendship with other Grandmasters but then call them skirt chasers. Yet they call others frauds. Hmmmm....interesting. Is it a piece of paper or is it character that makes one a fraud?

[QUOTE}There were alot of people I trained with, including Koreans, that were impressive until I met some of the KHF people at Richard Hackworth's school. We are talking about bodyguards for the president of the ROK. Now if that is not someone qualified, then who is? [/QUOTE]

You mean to tell me Mst. Hackworth was a bodyguard to the President of Korea? Or are you saying that Mst. Hackworth trained bodyguards of the President of Korea?

How would you feel if one of your students suddenly claimed to more about your subject that you teach than you, and was supported, but not sanctioned by the state. Its exactly the same principle.

How is it the same principle? Are you saying Mst. Whalen is a junior to Mst. Hackworth?

BTW....Mst. Hackworth, when were you stationed in Korea? What year? You claimed infatry, which division? Since you said you were there while I was in diapers I assume 1970 which, give or take a few would make you about 51 right?

 

[Kodanjaclay]

First off.... don't put words in my mouth. The people i met at Master Hackworth's school were, and still are, Blue house bodyguards. They provided the training, not Master Hackworth. Second, I never said anything about Master Whalen. I am not on the inside track, and I will not engage in politics. incidentally, misrepresentation IS fraud. Like it or not. That is the way things are.

Now I don't know what half truths you are talking about. Richard Hackworth IS the KHF rep for the United States per Oh, Se Lim, and it will be made official publicly by both he and MAster Bae. From what I understand, it is the third appointment.

Richard Hackworth is not necessarily talking down about any organization in my interpretation save for those who are misleading the public. Unfortunately, there are a heckuvalot of them.

Now, I will state this one publicly, and it is the same thing I have told Hal Whalen, Ray Terry and Richard Hackworth. I am not interested in any of the politics. I am interested in bettering myself, and my students. There are those who do not agree with that feeling, and that is there perogative, but it is my life and that is how I choose to live it. I choose to do the best I can and to lead my students the best I can. The one thing I can offer is ntegrity and I have a very strong sense of both that, and loyalty. Anyone who shares the same vision I do, I welcome as a fellow traveller. Anyone who does not, I sincerely hope you find the right path for you. That simple, no more, no less. But the attacks on one another need to stop. Its childish and to be honest, most of us would punish our children for exactly the same thing, would they not Jeremy?

 

[miguksaram]

Mst. Clay,

First of all I never said anything about Mst. Hackworth's appointment as a KHF was a half truth. Let me point out what I mean by half truths:

"The KHF will always be the largest officially recognized Hapkido organization in Korea and the world headquarters of our art."

I always thought the Kido-hae was the largest organization of HKD sanctioned by the Korean government?

"There are many well meaning instructors who are not affiliated with the KHF; however, they have an ethical and moral obligation to themselves and their students to belong to the appropriate, legitimate Hapkido organization. This will allow them to attend the required training to become a properly licensed instructor and chartered school."

So those who are not KHF are not legitimate instructors and can not teach legitimate HKD? This is totally BS. This is simple propoganda and bad one at that. It misleads the public into thinking that KHF is the ONLY legitimate organization sanctioned by the Korean government. In fact there are several organizations that are sanctioned by the Korean government.


"Their students pay good money for training and deserve to have the educational and training standards of the world's most prestigious Hapkido organization"

That is strictly an opinoin again misleading the general public into false impressions.


"Some instructors have been involved with "Hapkido" for more than 30 years and still don't meet our minimum requirements to become a licensed instructor "

So this is saying that they can do HKD at all? Or they can't do it according to KHF standards? Again...just more misleading crap.

"To be a student at a school that is not affiliated with the NHA and KHF means that you can never hope to get the training required to become an official black belt or instructor "

How f'n arrogant can you be? First off you don't have to be a NHA member in order to get your KHF certificate. These are two sperate beasts. Secondly to have the balls to sit there and tell everyone else that they are not legitimate because they are not sending money towards the NHA is just ridiculous. What is an official "black belt"? I guess my 5th dan HKD instructor is not an official black belt? I would love to see the person who wrote that stuff get on the mat with him. It would be quite interesting.

These are misleading half truths.

" I am not interested in any of the politics. I am interested in bettering myself, and my students. "

With all due respect sir, don't kid yourself.
"Is it true that there will be an anouncement by Oh, Se-Lim that some of the American "grandmasters" who claim high ranking KHF rank, will be exposed as not having legitimate rank from the KHF, by its president?

In particular, I believe that one of the patrons of this very site will be one mentioned by name by him? If this is the case, then the public needs to know. Politics are one thing. Fraud is quite another, and quite unethical."

What is this here? If you are not being political, then I need to know the new definition. Somehow, somewhere, you became a pawn in this political mess regardless of what you may think. Sooner or later you may be asked to choose which side you are on, if you haven't already.

BTW..I never punish my children for standing up against that which the feel is wrong.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

First of all... I did not write any of the information you attribute, so I am not being political.

Second, the KHF is the government sanctioned body of Hapkido, not the Kido. I beleive at one time the Kido was, but for whatever reaosn that is not the case any longer. Further, the KHF is headed by a government official, the head of the KCIA.

But now that I have gotten my position out in the open, its like this. I am a KHF Master. With a KHF certificate signed by Oh, Se Lim. That position has been taken. I am a KHF person. Now, many of the things that you are complaining about is their choice of words. I may not like what you or anyone else has to say, but I served in the military to defend the rights of Americans. One is the right to Free speech. Nowhere have they mislead anyone, as far as I know, and if you have proof, which can stand up in a court of law then present it. If you cannot, what you say is relegated to opinion and heresay.

I do not think that one's ability to practice Hapkido has anything to do with one's affiliation. I never have, but I have met all kinds, including those who wanted to be KHF members, but could not pass a testing board. One of those people runs an organization based in the east. I am not going to say his name out of respect. Not for him, but for the owner of this board, who does not pay hosting fees just to have mess like this go on his property.

I have been asked by people like Mr. Terry to take a satand against Mr. Hackworth. How childish is that? First off, I don't even really know Mr. Terry. He has never presented anything to me, other than his words, that would indicate that Mr. Hackworth has been untruthful. Mr. Hackworth, conversly, has taken people to Korea countless times, brings KHF people here to run the events, and I mean like demo team members and the like. He has gotten his people training by the National SWAT team and others. Having grown up in Korean martial art, and dealing with Koreans all my life, I know good and well if something was wrong with one of his certificates they would have said something about it. They have inspected his certificates, and never said anything. Now, why on earth would I disbelieve what I have seen with my own two eyes? For words written on an unsecure eletronic media? This is the internet... not a secure infranet. Hack, even this site... you have no idea who is using my screenname... it could be me, it cold not.... does that makese sense to you? It should.

I am not saying that you have to like or respect him, nor am I saying the same about him. What I am saying is that I believe this mess is getting out of hand, and one would presume that we would have all outgrown this once we got out of elementary school. Like me or my choices or not, doesn't matter. What does matter is that any martial art is essentially a solitary commitment. In the end, you must decide what is important to you. My practice is more important to me than any association or anyone on the intenet. I have been practicing long before Iwas online, and I suspect I will still be practicing when I finally decide to get rid of my service. Its that simple. Nothing more, nothing less.

Besides, what good does it really do to participate in the dojang wars? Is it really helping? To me, it looks like a bunch of kids. That hurts our art, and the impression we give others. irrespective of organization, we each are ambassadors of that art. If you are going to be an ambassador of any art, you must present your most positive face.

Now as I said before, to hold oneself out to be a member of any organization that one is not a member of is fraud. Anyone who does so, and accepts money for services based on that belief, is a criminal. Sorry, if you don't believe me, contact your local DA and ask them. Its true. Now, I'm not naming names for two reasons... one, its not my place, and two I'm not sure of who the people are. Oh Se Lim is making the announcement, not Frank Clay. If master so and so is one of those people, then I sincerely hope his business goes down. He is just hurting us all by lying. If master ABC is a member, then irrespective of what Kwan he is a part of, then I support him, because I am a Federation member, and I choose to stick with members of the Federation. I do not need to justify this, so don't ask me to. And that goes for Master Whalen. Irrespective of what anyone says about him, if Oh se Lim indicated he was a KHF blackbelt, then as far as I am concerned he si one of my seniors and I will stand with him, as Federation members, because that is my position. Not because of who he is or what he knows. Because he is a part of our family, and family sticks together, even if it occsasionally has words.

Now I don't punish my kids for standing up for their beliefs either, so long as they do it with respect. If they want to degenerate into useless bickering I do. Why? Because in the corporate world, that is what is expected of them. I want my kids to be successful, not working themselves to death working a blue collar job, that they may never be able to retire from. My father's father did that as well as my mother's... and in the end, theyhad nothing to show. I want my kids to do better, so I will teach them the best way I know to respond to these things. Soemtimes it means just leaving them [these things] alone.

Have I better clarified my position?

 

[miguksaram]

"First of all... I did not write any of the information you attribute, so I am not being political."

Sir, I never said you wrote that. I was refering to that as the half truths of my original statement. The only thing I attributed to you was : "Is it true that there will be an anouncement by Oh, Se-Lim that some of the American "grandmasters" who claim high ranking KHF rank, will be exposed as not having legitimate rank from the KHF, by its president?"

Perhaps I should have placed my remark after this quote to clarify.


In principle you and I are on the same wave length. You stand for KHF and that I respect that. I am for martial arts in general because the average person doesn't look at organizations they look at it as a whole. If a man is fraud in the KHF, they don't think, hey KHF has bad people. They think hey martial artists are bad people. This reflects on the whole community. If one man is abusing his position and claiming ranks or status. It is bad for the whole community. I to have 19 years of my 23 years in the Korean martial arts. I have grown up not only in the Korean MA community, but in its culture from my friends and my wife of 11 years.

When I hear someone attacking and belittling others, making threats or spin doctoring events about people I know, I get extremely upset, because to me that person has no honor. I have heard it said many times by others "Just ignore it and don't bother" Sometimes you just can't ignore it. When that happens it allows the problem to get worse not just for some but for all. To paraphrase a saying; True evil is when good people see evil doings and do nothing at all to stop it.

If nothing else sir, please understand one thing, I have nothing against you personally. Though we may be on opposite sides of the debate, I would gladly welcome you into my home to break bread (or open beers) and talk NON ORGANIZED martial arts.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

I would be honored to do so. This ceaseless bickering needs to stop. If more people felt like we did, maybe we could get a recolution going.

Speaking of non-organized arts, what is your feeling on some of the "family" arts? I have been doing alot of training in them and am finding the lack of a govorning body to be refreshing.

 

[miguksaram]

By family you mean other Korean arts, I would have to say I like not having to deal with the organizations. When I sign with an instructor, I do it for the fact that I find him or her to be a competent martial artist. I don't do it because they belong to XYZ Orgnanization. How many times will a Org. board actually interact with me in my training? Maybe once or twice a year? My instructor is there with me every step of the way. I trust their judgement above all else. Perhaps it was the way I was raised in the MA world. I was only under one organization at any given time and that was the Kido-hae, and that happened only when my instructor took the advice of his senior and got involved. Before that he was not part of it. Now I have a big cert. that told me what my rank was. Big deal. My instructor told me the same thing but with a smaller cert.

Funny thing was that technically I should be at least a 5th dan in the WTF. However, even though I practiced I never tested. Why? Simple belief that I didn't feel paying a butt load of money to a board of people who don't know me from spam was worth a piece of paper. The result, I stayed a first dan for over 15 years. I finally started testing again because I am opening a school soon and the pieces of paper on the wall does help (though I hate to admit it)

Training without the pressure of the orgs or having to play nice-nice with someone because they could hault your progress is very refreshing.

 

[Disco]

Mr. Clay, congradulations on the new arrival. Wishing easy delivery, good health and long life:asian:

OK, so the KHF has at last count 78 kwans that they recognize.
Does anybody have the number or a listing for the kwans of the Kido or is it Kido-Hae? I think there is at least one other organization also, the name escapes me at the moment. Any info on kwans from them would also be nice. I have heard the total number of all kwans was at 260.

I have no intention of trying to turn this into a debate of mine is better than yours. This is strictly a fact finding endeavor. I know there seems to be hard feelings between some factions in Hapkido. Don't want to bring any of that into the mix. Just looking for simple information and numbers. Appriciate any and all who may be able to contribute.

 

[miguksaram]

According to the Kido-hae website, http://www.kidohae.net , there are 31 different styles represented by the Kido-hae. I guess they would be the Baskin Robbins of the Korean martial art organizations.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

I have always thought that was a funny line. Sad but it seems very true.

 

[greendragon]

Mikugsaram writes:
<<There are those that claim they want to unify HKD, however, they look down upon all those who aren't in their organization. They place lies on their website.....ooops...I'm sorry they place half truths in their website. They place pictures in magazines saying they were in a Grandmaster meeting, when in fact they showed up at the last minute with a camera and their Sunday-go-to-church suit and take a picture. There are those who claim friendship with other Grandmasters but then call them skirt chasers. Yet they call others frauds. Hmmmm....interesting. Is it a piece of paper or is it character that makes one a fraud?>>


YAHTZEE!!! Now there is a concept..

Michael Tomlinson

 

[fringe_dweller]

Wow, I don't come to the board for six months and look what happens!

In my small travels in the world of hapkido, it seems that there are two (maybe three) camps. Pro Dr. Hackworth and anti Dr. Hackworth (and the "I don't care" people).

Never having trained with him I have no opinion on whether he is legit.

The one opinion I do have is that all the bickering that goes on within the community really hurts our ability to move forward. People (on both sides) try to win converts over to their way of thinking and hkd becomes a political party rather than a martial art! It would take a big man to extend his hand in conciliation to try and put an end to this whole debacle.

There are many well meaning instructors who are not affiliated with the KHF; however, they have an ethical and moral obligation to themselves and their students to belong to the appropriate, legitimate Hapkido organization. This will allow them to attend the required training to become a properly licensed instructor and chartered school.

I have to say this seems a little arrogant and could probably be worded somewhat better. It makes out that unless an instructor is part of the KHF they are not legitamate! If those same instructors try to certify students into the KHF then it's a problem but if not then I can't see where the problem lies.

Respectfully

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

I took the list that was posted towards the front of this string and began to do random checks on GOOGLE, ALTA VISTA and YAHOO. Has anyone else noticed how little published material there is regarding these various schools? I think its even MORE curious when you consider that some folks interpret "kwan" to mean "style" and that, by extension, these various "kwans" would theoretically be constellations for schools rather than just schools in and of themselves.

I also considered that despite there being over 70 kwans listed there are only a handful that anyone has had anything to do with. Nobody seems to know much about the other kwans--whether they are single schools OR whole styles. Just seems to be a bit odd and to me smacks of inflated numbers and misrepresentation. Its not as though one finds 73 kwangjang showing up at major events such as the recent meeting in Florida or even at events held in Korea.

BTW: Does anyone know the record attendence of kwanjang at any one event?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Having watched some of the discussions regarding organizations and such on another site devoted to Hapkido, I look at things and some people now with a somewhat jaundice eye. To kind of expound on the previous post, the history link that was offered on another thread listed several styles/kwans of hapkido that had dates that only showed it to be in existance for a year or two. With that in mind, the person running this organization is a master businessman (I will give him that). To recognize all those kwans they have listed sure looks impressive and that most likely is their point. Hey, we here in America did make the inventor of the "PET ROCK" a millionaire. Is it illegal to acknowledge and use said acknowledgement for promotional reasons? I would have to say no! Now is it disreputable? That I would have to give a yes to.
Hey, I acknowledge the Justice League with Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman etc. Do they exist.....NO!

So how many real active kwans exist? Another question comes to mind. If they acknowledged all these kwans, why was it necessary for the U.S. rep to start his own kwan. Why couldn't the kwan/style he originally trained in surfice?

 

[whalen]

e List of KHF Non-Korean Masters in the world
This is the list of KHF masters over the 4th Dan level in the world.
If you have any question, please contact Director Sung-Book Bae.

(Tel: 82-2-3437-3530, 82-11-258-7106
Email: [email protected] )

* notice *
The masters listed below are from the data base
from 1997 to 2003. The names before 1997 will be
up-loaded soon.




¢Â THE 4TH DAN ¢Â

PHIPILE TAI-PA PINERD (FRANCE)
DIEGO FERNANDO RAMOS (COLOMBIA)
UWE NOLTING (GERMANY)
QUINTELIER PATRICK (BELGIUM)
MICHAEL BYRD (U.S.A.)
THOMAS HAUCH (GERMANY)
RONDY RAE MCKEE (U.S.A.)
JESUS CASTELLANOS PUEBLAS (SPAIN)
REZA VALI NEJAD (IRAN)
ROSE ANTONIO LAGIER (ARGENTINA)
BRUCE HOWES (AUSTRALIA)
MARK D HUME (U.S.A.)
RHOADES
ANTONIO MANUEL MARTINS FRAGA (PORTUGUESE)
JONATHAN KLEINEMAN (U.S.A.)
KONRAD SPILLMAN (U.S.A.)
MOLLET REMI (FRANCE)
WADE LANGIN (CANADA)
PLORENTIN ANDRE (FRANCE)
PHAM MINH PHUOC (VIETNAM)
FABIAN DUQUE (COLOMBIA)
COUET RAPHAEL (FRANCE)


¢Â THE 5TH DAN ¢Â

CHRISTIAN MEIER (U.S.A.)
FRANCISCO OSCAR TAJES (ARGENTINA)
MIHEE HACKWORTH (U.S.A.)
LIVIO BALOCCO NICOLAY (U.S.A.)
RONALD C. GARLAND (U.S.A.)
ANDREW SANDS (AUSTRALIA)
JOHN GILL (AUSTRALIA)


¢Â THE 6TH DAN ¢Â

HECTOR ALDERETE (ARGENTINA)
RICHARD HACKWORTH (U.S.A.)
SAMUEL G. PLUMB (G.B.)


¢Â THE 7TH DAN ¢Â

SCOTT SHOW (AUSTRALIA)
HOLCOMBE THOMAS (U.S.A.)
HAROLD L. WHALEN (U.S.A.)
JULIAN LIM (MALAYSIA)