Grandmasters

[Indagator]

What constitutes a Grand Master?

In my art the term has been used in the bast by Westerners to refer to the overall head of our system. These days most people simply use the Japanese term Soke.
Soke is the head of the 9 ryu which make up our system, and in several books from the late 70s through the 80s he can be seen to be referred to as "Grandmaster of Togakure Ryu".
I may be mistaken but I believe in CMA the term has been used by Westerners in a similar context to refer to Yip Man.

Perhaps somebody who trains in koryu to better explain the correlation between the two terms in this context.

Who would you say are great modern Grand Masters?

Dr Masaaki Hatsumi.

Who would you say are great Grand Masters of the past?

Takamatsu Sensei

Why do people feel the need to add this title in front of their name after putting together nothing more than a mish mash system that is just a cut and paste job from arts they have studied?

Beats me. Maybe they have some internal issues that need to be grown through.

Cheers
Sam

And cheers to you, friend.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

What constitutes a Grand Master?

The head of your particular art, if they actually know the art and can teach it. Those placed there through good-ole-boyism or nepotism do not count. An art needs/requires only one GM. Everyone else, regardless of rank is only a 'master'. We don't need 'Ultimate, Supreme or Great' GM's either. That is simply one-upmanship and ego-driven on the part of individuals that use those idiotic titles.

Also, a true GM is one that doesn't refer to themselves as GM, yet others do.

Who would you say are great modern Grand Masters?

My instructor

Who would you say are great Grand Masters of the past?

Anko Itosu Sensei, Kanryō Higaonna Sensei and Kanbun Uechi Sensei. All the modern Ryu's come from these individuals.

Why do people feel the need to add this title in front of their name after putting together nothing more than a mish mash system that is just a cut and paste job from arts they have studied?

Ego.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Also, a true GM is one that doesn't refer to themselves as GM, yet others do.

This is a bit like saying that a true doctor is one that doesn't refer to themselves as doctor, yet others do.

While I agree with the sentiment, it is only us westerners who care about the title. Otherwise, they wouldn't use it. If we westerners would simply ignore the titles, there wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

This is a bit like saying that a true doctor is one that doesn't refer to themselves as doctor, yet others do.

While I agree with the sentiment, it is only us westerners who care about the title. Otherwise, they wouldn't use it. If we westerners would simply ignore the titles, there wouldn't be an issue.

With respect Daniel, I disagree. A doctor needs to refer to himself as a doctor in order to be able to operate his practice. A martial arts teacher doesn't need to refer to himself as Professor Great and Supreme Grandmaster John Doe Ph.D. MA in order to teach a class.

And it didn't start with westerners either. We learned it from the easterners. Time and again I see Koreans calling themselves Grandmaster, Great Grandmaster, Supreme Grandmaster etc. Particularly Koreans, though it isn't limited to them exclusively.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That is because they picked it up from us. We have had the term 'grandmaster' in western culture for centuries. No extant Korean art predates WWII outside of taekyeon, which really is more of a folk sport than an MA. The usage of the title is a 20th century phenomenon and it was picked up from the west. Higher levels of grandmaster, such as the ones you mention, are post 1970, possibly post 1980, inventions that were designed for one upsmanship in marketing to the west.

Japanese arts do not use the title unless some savy sensei is trying to impress westerners. It is not used in Chinese arts except in the west. The term is not commonly used in China or Japan. What you call a grandmaster would be a soke, which does not mean grandmaster. Apparently, in China, to call a living person a grandmaster is actually derogetory, akin to calling someone 'Mister Personality,' implying that they aren't. But Chinese masters in the west are not idiots and they know the value of the title, so they make use of it. Japanese schools tend to stick with traditional Japanese honorifics, given that they impress westerners readilly enough.

And there were no grandmasters in KMA until probably the late sixties or seventies, mainly because nobody was old enough or had been practicing long enough to warrant the title; KMA's that weren't just Karate by another name were still being organized and their leadership worked out well into seventies. And virtually all of the high dan masters that showed up in the west in the 1970's left Korea with lower grades than they had when they arrived in the west.

The fact that they refer to each other with the title does not change any of that. Nor does it make the title somehow illegitimate. But it was utilized specifically to promote the art in the west.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And virtually all of the high dan masters that showed up in the west in the 1970's left Korea with lower grades than they had when they arrived in the west.

Of this I have no doubt.

The fact that they refer to each other with the title does not change any of that. Nor does it make the title somehow illegitimate.

I would suggest that using it for a marketing ploy = illegitimate. To show respect and to give honor = legitimate.

But it was utilized specifically to promote the art in the west.

But from an eastern practitioner. Westerners of course had to jump on the bandwagon.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I would suggest that using it for a marketing ploy = illegitimate. To show respect and to give honor = legitimate.

Well, they were all using it as a marketing ploy, at least initially. The arts were too new to have grandmasters and the term was not commonly used until the seventies or eighties. Now that the term is established and has parameters as to when and to whom it is awarded, it is easier to draw a distinction between legitimate GMs and the self promoted GMs.

But initially, there was no clear cut mechanism as to how one was awarded the title aside from that they broke off and started their own organization within the same art or their peers decided to vote them into the title. Consider though that the early masters of TKD and TSD would likely not have met the qualifications that were later established for the rank, such as minimum age or years in practice.

But from an eastern practitioner. Westerners of course had to jump on the bandwagon.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Easterners jumped on the bandwagon too, probably moreso than their western counterparts.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

A Grandmaster is someone who trained for at least 4 or 5 decades in their life. There are Grandmasters such as Sensei Hokama. There are Grandmasters that past on such as Peter Urban. However, I heard that he self-certified himself that title and founded a different school of Goju-ryu (American Goju-ryu).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A Grandmaster is someone who trained for at least 4 or 5 decades in their life. There are Grandmasters such as Sensei Hokama.

Does he actually call himself grandmaster? I didn't think that the title existed in Goju (indeed I could be wrong). Or are you saying that he exemplifies the qualities that you feel make a grandmster. I am aware that he is tenth dan and hold the grade of hanshi, but that translates to 'teacher of teachers,' not grandmaster.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

The Grandmaster title exists in Goju-ryu, it's just not used so often.