Grandmasters

[thetruth]

Apparently the Grand Master title comes with the rank of 7th dan in the particular system you are referring to Cobby. Thats what I was told anyway.

 

[stone_dragone]

It would seem that a common thread among the responses of what a Grandmaster is and how one should present themselves agree's with Plato's idea of the perfect political/military leader...highly accomplished, well qualified and, most importantly, NO AMBITION to hold the position or title. Not to say that they don't seek to improve themselves, only that they aren't concerned with the trappings of their position and focus on the responsibilities of that position...which leads me into my next point...

What exactly is the role of a grandmaster? What do they do, after becoming a grandmaster, that they couldn't do before?

In the American Taekwondo Association, for example, there is one person holding the title Grandmaster who acts as a figurehead, example and overall director of the association's international activities while he (and here's the kicker) continues to teach the regional Chief masters, Senior masters and Masters so that they can continue to teach and promote the instructors and students. The other titles (Chief master, Senior master and Master) all are awarded separate from their ranking and each take higher responsibilities within the larger organization, and there are fewer Chief masters than Senior masters than Masters, etc.

Personally, I never liked large hierarchal organizations in the MA (coming from a small independent school in the middle of the PA woods), but have come to at least appreciate their utility for keeping practitioners going in the same direction.

My two cents...

 

[phlaw]

This guy here got promoted to Grand Master 7th Degree last year and he milks it completely. I am very surprised he hasn't updated his website.

http://www.marquartstkd.com/

But he does still total his other belts, kind of funny...

 

[funnytiger]

It would seem that a common thread among the responses of what a Grandmaster is and how one should present themselves agree's with Plato's idea of the perfect political/military leader...highly accomplished, well qualified and, most importantly, NO AMBITION to hold the position or title. Not to say that they don't seek to improve themselves, only that they aren't concerned with the trappings of their position and focus on the responsibilities of that position...

This was a great way of summing it all up. Kudos!

 

[bshovan]

As a recent voice and member to this forum I truly admire the knowledge and info I've gained, recognizing all for their own input. In recent threads I have shared some of my experiences as a martial artist and also a promoter of martial arts in more ways then one. One more thing I would like to share concerning this thread on " GrandMasters " is a video made at one of my seminars over 10 years ago- produced by Sensei Michael DePasquale Jr.. This video is titled, " Grandmasters in Action " and within it is contained the following Grandmasters- Wally Jay, Florindo Visitaccion, Ronald Duncan, Michael DePasquale Sr., Antonio Pereira, Pete Siringano and Ron Van Clief. A weekend tribute to these great grandmasters was held at my Storm King School and for those interested in purchasing such may go to Michael DePasquales MAWN website. This tape is truly a collectors item of true grandmaster's in action and since the making of this tape Grandmasters Visitaccion, Pereria and Siringano have passed away.
In a nutshell, this is truly a tribute to real Martial Arts Grandmasters.

Sensei Bill

 

[Namu]

Someone I train with created his own martial art, claiming it combines techniques from 15-20 different martial arts (depending on what day you ask him). He has now promoted himself to 4th and the rank of "master". The highest rank that he holds that I know that he has tested for is 2nd dan in TKD (and that was practically given to him as a courtesy because he was leaving for Iraq and my instructor thought he wouldn't be back to our school after his tour). He also claims a former instructor told him over the phone that he was "probably a 3rd dan in Jui Te".

This fellow is all about the titles and appearance. When a room full of black belts were practicing yellow belt techniques at a seminar (quite happily) this guy asked the grandmaster (over 57 years of experience) to show him some of the black belt techniques...things he could use in his line of work because he is in personal security (meaning he worked security for some concerts and at some clubs for a few months).

The grandmaster (thankfully) politely yet firmly refused his request.

"Grandmaster" should be a title given by consensus I believe. And "master" should be a title not given to one's self...and that "master" should be able to back up his claims to the title...not prove himself by throwing little kids around the mat and saying, "I'll give you $50 right now if you can take me down".

Rant off.

 

[D.Cobb]

Someone I train with created his own martial art, claiming it combines techniques from 15-20 different martial arts (depending on what day you ask him). He has now promoted himself to 4th and the rank of "master". The highest rank that he holds that I know that he has tested for is 2nd dan in TKD (and that was practically given to him as a courtesy because he was leaving for Iraq and my instructor thought he wouldn't be back to our school after his tour). He also claims a former instructor told him over the phone that he was "probably a 3rd dan in Jui Te".

This fellow is all about the titles and appearance. When a room full of black belts were practicing yellow belt techniques at a seminar (quite happily) this guy asked the grandmaster (over 57 years of experience) to show him some of the black belt techniques...things he could use in his line of work because he is in personal security (meaning he worked security for some concerts and at some clubs for a few months).

The grandmaster (thankfully) politely yet firmly refused his request.

"Grandmaster" should be a title given by consensus I believe. And "master" should be a title not given to one's self...and that "master" should be able to back up his claims to the title...not prove himself by throwing little kids around the mat and saying, "I'll give you $50 right now if you can take me down".

Rant off.

Yes Sir, they are everywhere! If you want to see a website dedicated to these knuckle heads, try this one http://www.kyusho.com/
These guys are all either self promoted or they are promoted from within the other morons on this site.
One of them got his blackbelt by following George Dillman (whose highest awarded rank is 4th in Shorin Ryu) al around the US, from seminar to seminar for 1 year. That was about 1986 I think, and now he is an 8th Dan Grandmaster. He is a sometimes member of this board too, but only when he is advertising his next big martial arts breakthrough dvd.
The term we use down under is wanker!

Have a great day.
--Dave

 

[Drac]

The term we use down under is wanker!

Have a great day.
--Dave

We'd call them a real tool up here..Same meaning...

 

[Cirdan]

If you want to see a website dedicated to these knuckle heads, try this one http://www.kyusho.com/

I am really disappointed the "Intimacy Enhancement" link doesn`t lead anywhere. Really wanted to see what they had cooked up for that section.

 

[D.Cobb]

I am really disappointed the "Intimacy Enhancement" link doesn`t lead anywhere. Really wanted to see what they had cooked up for that section.

They used to have a site called lovebuttons.com
The butt head that ran it is the sometimes member of this board I told you about. He got to demonstrate it on live TV, but the woman must have been frigid or something because it didn't work.

It's right up there with their "no touchknockouts"

One of their so called masters spent 2 months with big George and came backdownunder with a 5th dan. I know this for a fact and the time he spent in the US is documented in one of GDs books.

Oh and by the way, if you get on their forums, don't question their credentials, they will kick you to the curb.
--Dave

 

[YoungMan]

You are a Grandmaster when:
A. That title is conferred upon you by a legitimate organization.
B. You are recognized as such by your peers.

Founding your own style does not constitute Grandmaster level, since a glance at any Sokeship website will display dozens of so-called Grandmasters and style founders.
To me, a Grandmaster is one who has earned worldwide recognition as a respected representative of a certain art. Being a top fighter does not mean you are a Grandmaster. Sorry Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis. A Grandmaster is someone who has spent a lifetime learning, teaching, promoting, and developing martial art, not just sparring.
My Instructor is 9th Dan with the Kukkiwon (I looked up his number and it is on record); however he refers to himself as simply a senior tae kwon do instructor. I would also consider Jhoon Rhee and Hee Il Cho Grandmasters since they are known worlwide for promoting Tae Kwon Do.

 

[Balrog]

First and foremost, we are students, always and forever.

Some students gain sufficient expertise and experience to become instructors.

Some instructors gain sufficient expertise and experience to become masters of their art. They are the teachers of the teachers, so to speak.

And a few masters gain sufficient expertise and experience to become teachers of the masters. Those are the Grand Masters.

In theory, at least. :yoda:

 

[Drac]

First and foremost, we are students, always and forever.

Some students gain sufficient expertise and experience to become instructors.

Some instructors gain sufficient expertise and experience to become masters of their art. They are the teachers of the teachers, so to speak.

And a few masters gain sufficient expertise and experience to become teachers of the masters. Those are the Grand Masters.

In theory, at least. :yoda:

Works fo me...

 

[Xue Sheng]

You are a Grandmaster when:
A. That title is conferred upon you by a legitimate organization.
B. You are recognized as such by your peers.

I am absolutely clueless as to what constitutes a Grand Master in any style outside of Chinese Martial Arts. But in China as to

A. That title is conferred upon you by a legitimate organization.

No such organization exists that is taken seriously and any one that claims a Master IN CHINA told them they were a Grandmaster of the style is likely lying

As to

B. You are recognized as such by your peers.

Generally if you are recognized by your peers as a "Grandmaster" and you are still alive they think you are a fake or think you are joking or possibly in the case of a Western that calls them a Grandmaster they think you simply do not understand and may or may not explain it to you.

If your peers recognize you as a Grandmaster after you die then it is a term of respect for your skill.

If you call a living CMA person a Grandmaster in China you are likely to get either laugh at, an explanation as to why you should not call them a Grandmaster, ignored, or pounded on. Unless of course they are a fake then they are likely to leave.

The term used by Chinese masters in the west is for the west ONLY and generally a sales pitch because we tend to be impressed by such things

 

[D.Cobb]

Most times nobody does check...

--Dave

 

[RyuKyuBushi]

Two EXCELLENT examples of Grand Masters are "The Late" Remy Presas and Taika Seiyu Oyata. I never heard either refer to themselves as such but in my opinion you couldnot find a more real deal!

Chris

 

[Kinghercules]

I have to add my KJN KI Whang Kim!!!
KJN Kim was promoted to 9th dan by the KTA back in 71 and it wasnt something that he was seeking to achieve.

The same goes for Grandmaster Albert Cheeks. Besides being Ki Whang Kim's senior black belt Cheeks was one of the top fighters and forms competitors from Kim's dojo back in the 70's. When I came home I looked GM Cheeks to continue my training and for years it was just me and GM Cheeks because he wasnt interested in teaching but after being repeatedly asked by other senior black belts from Ki Whang Kim's dojo and just other ppl that knew him, he decided to get back into it. Again, he wasnt looking to be a grandmaster.

It seems like now a days every one wants to be a grandmaster. **** not everyone gets to be a 4 star general. Some ppl retire at colonel or Lt colonel or 2 star general.

 

[thegatekeeper]

Someone I train with created his own martial art, claiming it combines techniques from 15-20 different martial arts (depending on what day you ask him). He has now promoted himself to 4th and the rank of "master". The highest rank that he holds that I know that he has tested for is 2nd dan in TKD (and that was practically given to him as a courtesy because he was leaving for Iraq and my instructor thought he wouldn't be back to our school after his tour). He also claims a former instructor told him over the phone that he was "probably a 3rd dan in Jui Te".

This fellow is all about the titles and appearance. When a room full of black belts were practicing yellow belt techniques at a seminar (quite happily) this guy asked the grandmaster (over 57 years of experience) to show him some of the black belt techniques...things he could use in his line of work because he is in personal security (meaning he worked security for some concerts and at some clubs for a few months).

The grandmaster (thankfully) politely yet firmly refused his request.

"Grandmaster" should be a title given by consensus I believe. And "master" should be a title not given to one's self...and that "master" should be able to back up his claims to the title...not prove himself by throwing little kids around the mat and saying, "I'll give you $50 right now if you can take me down".

Rant off.

Lol you can give titles to yourself? haha

 

[poollshark]

I am really disappointed the "Intimacy Enhancement" link doesn`t lead anywhere. Really wanted to see what they had cooked up for that section.

Be disappointed no more sir, they now have material available at that link. Don't think I've ever seen martial arts marketed this way, maybe I live under a rock?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have to add my KJN KI Whang Kim!!!
KJN Kim was promoted to 9th dan by the KTA back in 71 and it wasnt something that he was seeking to achieve.

The same goes for Grandmaster Albert Cheeks. Besides being Ki Whang Kim's senior black belt Cheeks was one of the top fighters and forms competitors from Kim's dojo back in the 70's. When I came home I looked GM Cheeks to continue my training and for years it was just me and GM Cheeks because he wasnt interested in teaching but after being repeatedly asked by other senior black belts from Ki Whang Kim's dojo and just other ppl that knew him, he decided to get back into it. Again, he wasnt looking to be a grandmaster.

It seems like now a days every one wants to be a grandmaster. **** not everyone gets to be a 4 star general. Some ppl retire at colonel or Lt colonel or 2 star general.

Grandmaster looks better in printed literature and on websites or business cards.

Most JMA do not use the term at all, having their own honorifics.

In KMA, Taesanim is generally reserved for 9th dan and higher practitioners.

Organizational heads in KMA are most often grandmasters, but it is their ninth dan that brings the honorific, be it organizationally conferred or self awarded. Being the organization head usually brings with it a title such as president.

I often see 'kwanjang' translated as grandmaster, but a kwanjang is the owner of the school, specifically the building. Though like organizational heads, school owners are often ninth dan. Also, while it is not being a school owner that makes a ninth dan a grandmaster, pretty much all Korean grandmasters are school owners.

Regarding the self promoted, you have that in every profession. Some are legitimately skilled, but most are just individuals who attach a title in order to facilitate self promotion.