Good teaching clip

[LFJ]

Because they wanted everyone to describe hand chasing scenarios in which they could spring a "gotcha" moment and claim that counter punching is the correct answer after all. Problem is it isn't, the counter punch will likely fail as well because you are already a step behind.

No "gotcha" about it. This started out with me kindly replying to Geezer about how the center guard fails. The diagram was made to illustrate the point about this guard.

You can do something other than the center guard. But if you use it, the only options are chasing arms and/or getting hit.

 

[KPM]

Let me say it again... Not an option from the center guard à la WT.

So what is it exactly you are arguing for? Are you saying that holding the Wu back a bit off of the centerline makes a difference between being able to counter-punch and not being able to counter-punch?

 

[LFJ]

Heck, I'd just punch the guy straight away. But I was told that wasn't an option. Another case of "bait and switch" to suit your own purposes.

The diagram clearly shows that a counterpunch from the center guard results in a double knockout as the best case.

So what is it exactly you are arguing for? Are you saying that holding the Wu back a bit off of the centerline makes a difference between being able to counter-punch and not being able to counter-punch?

A center guard, or one slightly wide of center both have the same flaws and fail against the simple and common scenario I described.

My point was to illustrate that failure.

 

[Nobody Important]

No "gotcha" about it. This started out with me kindly replying to Geezer about how the center guard fails. The diagram was made to illustrate the point about this guard.

You can do something other than the center guard. But if you use it, the only options are chasing arms and/or getting hit.

You may not have intended for it to come across that way, but it did. On the other part, I agree.

 

[guy b]

Heck, I'd just punch the guy straight away. But I was told that wasn't an option. Another case of "bait and switch" to suit your own purposes.

How would this work, without being a 50:50 situation (at best)?

 

[KPM]

The diagram clearly shows that a counterpunch from the center guard results in a double knockout as the best case.



A center guard, or one slightly wide of center both have the same flaws and fail against the simple and common scenario I described.

My point was to illustrate that failure.

So then what is your answer to your own scenario? You said "counter punch" before but now just said you can't? Its like "bait and switch" x2!!!

 

[KPM]

How would this work, without being a 50:50 situation (at best)?

Calm down Robin. Batman has the floor. But personally I'd step off the line WHILE punching. But wait...is that against the rules for this scenario as well??

 

[guy b]

Where did I say take the shot to the face and counter?

Here:

I advocate taking the punch and counter punching

Now that, that's clear it seems we have no argument other than the tactic of taking a hit. Having been in the ring, it'll be hard to convince me that you can get away from being hit with any high percentage, best to learn to deal with it.

 

[LFJ]

So then what is your answer to your own scenario? You said "counter punch" before but now just said you can't? Its like "bait and switch" x2!!!

It's not using the failing center guard.

Given that you acknowledge it's failure, you should not just settle for a chasing paak-sau and likely taking a hit.

You should be asking yourself how your setup could be changed so that when your lead arm is removed, your rear hand can immediately counterpunch without it being 50/50 at best, also assuming there's no time or room for footwork or much body movement before the punch would land.

I'm about to call it a night. So, I'll let you sit on that.

 

[guy b]

So then what is your answer to your own scenario? You said "counter punch" before but now just said you can't? Its like "bait and switch" x2!!!

The answer is to punch, punch, punch..

For you non-wing-chun wing chun guys, after accepting a punch to the face and adopting the awesome crab guard I guess you are just going to have to go all Mayweather on him? Lets just hope this doesn't happen:

 

[Nobody Important]

Here:

Where does that say to the face? Yeah, I said take the shot, I stand by it, but nowhere did I say take it on the chin, in the face or otherwise. I said tuck the head into the shoulder (wu sau will naturally rise to protect face) and move in. At best you slip the punch, at worst he hit you on top of head or into your shoulder and wu hand, which will take the majority of power out of his punch. Kinda like this but even closer and chin more tucked

 

[Juany118]

Very similar to this, its for taking heavy pressure.

I will say I try to avoid that kind of "body english" and try to use foot work simply because of what I myself do. If I am striking and the opponent leans back I stop striking and move for a take down as they already did half the work.

That said, for the purposes of illustration, the one photo (black male, blue trunks and gloves) is doing something similar to the cheun sau cover I was referring to, essentially threading your hand up into what is roughly a 90 degree angle from the elbow. Another "cover" we will use if the foot work isn't possible, or you are a step behind so to speak, is imported from Kali (with the GM's permission), but it exists in other systems as well. Raise your hand and place it next to your head roughly between the eyebrow and ear. Worst case scenario it deflects a fair amount of force, best case scenario you actually strike the incoming hand/fist with your elbow doing damage. The last is largely luck but when it happens it is funny to watch.

 

[Nobody Important]

The answer is to punch, punch, punch..

For you non-wing-chun wing chun guys, after accepting a punch to the face and adopting the awesome crab guard I guess you are just going to have to go all Mayweather on him? Lets just hope this doesn't happen:

It's cute that you think that by just punching you'll avoid getting hit back. My advice, learn how to take a punch, because you're gonna get hit.

 

[Nobody Important]

I will say I try to avoid that kind of "body english" and try to use foot work simply because of what I myself do. If I am striking and the opponent leans back I stop striking and move for a take down as they already did half the work.

That said, for the purposes of illustration, the one photo (black male, blue trunks and gloves) is doing something similar to the cheun sau cover I was referring to, essentially threading your hand up into what is roughly a 90 degree angle from the elbow. Another "cover" we will use if the foot work isn't possible, or you are a step behind so to speak, is imported from Kali (with the GM's permission), but it exists in other systems as well. Raise your hand and place it next to your head roughly between the eyebrow and ear. Worst case scenario it deflects a fair amount of force, best case scenario you actually strike the incoming hand/fist with your elbow doing damage. The last is largely luck but when it happens it is funny to watch.

Just a FYI the position isn't static you constantly move to cover your gaps and generally are pressing forward to stymie his advance and take his power. This position allows for you to ride out a storm when someone gets position on you, but you have to be able to withstand the punishment. Often you'll see a quick transition into the clinch when the distance is closed. Its a position that leads well into grappling. The old adage "Wrestle a Boxer, Box a Wrestler".

 

[guy b]

Where does that say to the face? Yeah, I said take the shot, I stand by it, but nowhere did I say take it on the chin, in the face or otherwise. I said tuck the head into the shoulder (wu sau will naturally rise to protect face) and move in. At best you slip the punch, at worst he hit you on top of head or into your shoulder and wu hand, which will take the majority of power out of his punch. Kinda like this but even closer and chin more tucked

Have a look at the picture I posted, shoulder roll gone wrong, Happens all the time. Planning to take a punch is not VT, pretty stupid, and an admission of failure. But do whatever floats your boat.

 

[guy b]

It's cute that you think that by just punching you'll avoid getting hit back.

This is because you don't understand VT. Quite obvious now.

learn how to take a punch

Learning to cover and how to minimise damage when being hit is sensible, but not something that anyone, let alone a wing chun person, should use as a first line tactic.

 

[Juany118]

Just a FYI the position isn't static you constantly move to cover your gaps and generally are pressing forward to stymie his advance and take his power. This position allows for you to ride out a storm when someone gets position on you, but you have to be able to withstand the punishment. Often you'll see a quick transition into the clinch when the distance is closed. Its a position that leads well into grappling. The old adage "Wrestle a Boxer, Box a Wrestler".

Oh I am not saying I NEVER do it, I just try to avoid it if possible.

 

[Juany118]

It's cute that you think that by just punching you'll avoid getting hit back. My advice, learn how to take a punch, because you're gonna get hit.

I think this is a principle of WC born of exaggeration. Yes a straight punch hits faster than a round and yes if you strike first it help. The problem is, unless that strike puts the person down or, if striking an incoming blow, has more power behind it, you are still going to get hit. The strike may miss the intended target and/or have less force behind it BUT you are still getting hit.

 

[Nobody Important]

This is because you don't understand VT. Quite obvious now.



Learning to cover and how to minimise damage when being hit is sensible, but not something that anyone, let alone a wing chun person, should use as a first line tactic.

I disagree, proper defense needs to be instilled from the start. Otherwise when your offense fails, as in this scenario, you're screwed. You have to understand that getting hit is a reality, preparing for it is a necessity. This is a big problem with Wing Chun in general. Too much emphasis on structure that isn't pressure tested and Chi Sau and ignoring how to receive force when the structure fails. All this because everyone is taught punch, punch, punch. It's the equivalent of flinging crap at the wall hoping something sticks. If you can give you have to be able to take, that's the reality of it.

 

[Juany118]

It's the fact that you don't know anything about it that's the giveaway. It isn't any kind of an attack, more like an observation of reality. If you did study WSL VT then you didn't learn much, which sounds fishy since the bit you guys are struggling with is SNT

First again, it didn't address any of the actual points I made about the dynamics of real fights vs theory.

Second, I actually haven't said anything about WSLVT as an art in this thread all I did was compare and contrast two different videos. But let's say I did say "WSLVT does this" and was completely wrong. That is irrelevant to my point and so your critique here is a strawman argument because again, it ignores the real dynamics of a fight, that relying on a counter strike in the scenario presented has a much high risk of failure than using cover and foot work when under that kind of pressure.

One of the reasons I try to avoid talking about my WSLVT experience is two fold btw. I know my experience is limited and memories may be unreliable because it has been years. Lastly since it is not via PB I am fairly certain that if I mention something that PB doesn't state you would attack it anyway.

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