Good teaching clip

[Nobody Important]

Have a look at the picture I posted, shoulder roll gone wrong, Happens all the time. Planning to take a punch is not VT, pretty stupid, and an admission of failure. But do whatever floats your boat.

And your tactic of punch can't go wrong? If you miss and he counters your back at square one, and done nothing to close the gap. Pretty stupid to ignore a realistic defensive tactic to believe that you can beat him to the punch after he's launched the attack. Your natural instinct is to cover, use it to your advantage. Quit hypnotizing "What If" situations, especially ones with low percentage pass rates simply because you're afraid of being hit. You're gonna get hit, sooner or later you'll have to deal with it. Besides it was clearly stated that a counter punch wasn't an option. So you're left with 2 options, get hit or get hit. Up to you on how hard you take it.

 

[Lobo66]

In VT vs VT : Your partner attacks your position (left man, right wu) with a left jut and a right vertical punch. He enters square on yet diagonally in an attempt to cut you off. You, however, are no chump and the second you feel his jut against your left man sau hand you pull it back. At the same time, your right wu sau hand (always having forward intention) is itself converted to a vertical punch which, together with your own "entering" footwork, cuts off your partners punch travelling from the "inside out" (concept tan sau). You are thus able to defend and counter-attack simultaneously, not chasing his arm but attacking the center (his head).

 

[Juany118]

I disagree, proper defense needs to be instilled from the start. Otherwise when your offense fails, as in this scenario, you're screwed. You have to understand that getting hit is a reality, preparing for it is a necessity. This is a big problem with Wing Chun in general. Too much emphasis on structure that isn't pressure tested and Chi Sau and ignoring how to receive force when the structure fails. All this because everyone is taught punch, punch, punch. It's the equivalent of flinging crap at the wall hoping something sticks. If you can give you have to be able to take, that's the reality of it.

I use a different analogy, a gun fight. Someone trained only to rapid fire at your average indoor range, will have a major issue in a real gun fight outside. If you aren't shooting first and your target is shooting back you need to focus not only on pulling the trigger but on getting to cover. Even if it's dropping to the prone to use a curb find cover.

 

[Juany118]

In VT vs VT : Your partner attacks your position (left man, right wu) with a left jut and a right vertical punch. He enters square on yet diagonally in an attempt to cut you off. You, however, are no chump and the second you feel his jut against your left man sau hand you pull it back. At the same time, your right wu sau hand (always having forward intention) is itself converted to a vertical punch which, together with your own "entering" footwork, cuts off your partners punch travelling from the "inside out" (concept tan sau). You are thus able to defend and counter-attack simultaneously, not chasing his arm but attacking the center (his head).

I think the first part is maybe part of the problem. In large part I know I, and I think @Nobody Important, are talking about fighting in general. There is an old saying "train like you fight." In real life conflicts the chances of running into another WC/VT practitioner are slim to none. So if your methodology is focused on addressing VT v VT you may find yourself on the short end on the street.

 

[KPM]

It's not using the failing center guard.

Given that you acknowledge it's failure, you should not just settle for a chasing paak-sau and likely taking a hit.

You should be asking yourself how your setup could be changed so that when your lead arm is removed, your rear hand can immediately counterpunch without it being 50/50 at best, also assuming there's no time or room for footwork or much body movement before the punch would land.

I'm about to call it a night. So, I'll let you sit on that.

I don't need to "sit on" anything. You are not my teacher. Just give direct responses. You could have answered my question that I have asked twice now. So again....you wonder why people hesitate to engage in a technical discussion with you? I'm regretting already!

So are you now saying you would have never have extended that Man Sau hand out where it could be trapped to begin with?? Just state your case and stop playing these games! I wouldn't have myself. In Pin Sun we don't use an extended "ready position" like that. I was just trying to participate in the parameters of YOUR scenario. But it seems you keep changing it to suit yourself.

 

[guy b]

You have to understand that getting hit is a reality, preparing for it is a necessity

I agree, but this isn't the same thing as taking punches intentionally. And doing so not VT

All this because everyone is taught punch, punch, punch

Given that you don't understand how it works, probably better not to have an opinion

 

[guy b]

I think this is a principle of WC born of exaggeration. Yes a straight punch hits faster than a round and yes if you strike first it help. The problem is, unless that strike puts the person down or, if striking an incoming blow, has more power behind it, you are still going to get hit.

You don't know what is being discussed

 

[guy b]

You are not my teacher. Just give direct responses.

Isn't this a direct contradiction?

You want answers for nothing. You are correct, your teacher is someone else and they don't have some very basic details of the VT system. Something for you to consider if you are interested in the system. If not then don't worry.

So are you now saying you would have never have extended that Man Sau hand out where it could be trapped to begin with?? Just state your case and stop playing these games!

Relax. It is a completely different system. Nothing to do with what you do. Why not just forget about it?

 

[KPM]

You don't know what is being discussed

Heck, I don't know what is being discussed either! LFJ is not giving straight answers. It seems the original scenario that started the discussion in this direction keeps changing. Looks like LFJ designed a scenario that had no good answer and then you both sit back and laugh at people that try to give an answer, all the while not saying what you would do yourself. But the answer to that question seems to be..."don't be in that situation to begin with!" Which is a horribly disingenuous way to drive a discussion! So is it any wonder anyone would lose track of what is being discussed??

 

[guy b]

I actually haven't said anything about WSLVT as an art

If you had studied the system, you would know these basics. So either you aren't telling the truth or somehow you missed the fundamentals. Confusing.

 

[guy b]

Heck, I don't know what is being discussed either! LFJ is not giving straight answers. It seems the original scenario that started the discussion in this direction keeps changing.

LFJ was describing problems with the WT guard on centre. Since you and Nobody don't do anything similar not really sure what your interest is?

Looks like LFJ designed a scenario that had no good answer and then you both sit back and laugh at people that try to give an answer, all the while not saying what you would do yourself.

You three jumped on the thread and strated trolling. If you don't use man wu then why are you even here? Conversation was going fine without you.

The answer is very simple and has been spelled out already. Unfortunately everyone too busy talking about how they prefer to get punched in the face and adopt silly boxing guards to even notice.

Since you all now realise you made a big fuss about nothing, how about leaving the thread to people who actually might be interested instead?

 

[guy b]

Lastly since it is not via PB I am fairly certain that if I mention something that PB doesn't state you would attack it anyway.

Basic ideas are basic. Gary Lam has them too I am sure.

 

[KPM]

You three jumped on the thread and strated trolling. If you don't use man wu then why are you even here? Conversation was going fine without you.

---So now trying to participate and make sense out of one of your technical discussions....at your invitation....is considered "trolling"???


how about leaving the thread to people who actually might be interested instead?

---That's probably the best thing you've written in a LONG time. Although, I can't see why anyone would be interested in these long convoluted discussions with you two that always seem to go nowhere except down the rabbit hole.

 

[Nobody Important]

I agree, but this isn't the same thing as taking punches intentionally. And doing so not VT. Given that you don't understand how it works, probably better not to have an opinion

Here is the scenario:
Now, if your left man-sau is taken momentarily out of action, being pulled down or suddenly knocked aside, you no longer have a left side of the triangle to cover that space. The area you are able to cover has just been reduced by a full half.

If simultaneously a punch is coming into you from an angle through the space left of the center line, and you don't have time or room to move your body, your wu-sau cannot attack straight away. It would be too late. You'd be hit, or at best it would be a double knockout.

I agreed. Simply trying to defend by punching isn't going to bode well because you're exposed. Just as was said here "your wu-sau cannot attack straight away. It would be too late. You'd be hit, or at best it would be a double knockout." This leaves you with only one viable option, cover, take the hit and then counter. Nowhere did I say that this was a tactic to be wantonly used all the time as a first line of defense. It was specific to this scenario and I supported my argument with examples of use. When you are unable to move your body, your left hand is immobilized and you cannot counter attack with the right, there is no magic formula. You are going to get hit, learn how to take one. You have no choice but to take the hit. The scenario is one that sets you up to fail from every angle it is pursued.

Now since I obviously fail to see how VT (or any method) can overcome this situation unscathed, please enlighten me as to the "Correct" answer.

 

[guy b]

Just as was said here "your wu-sau cannot attack straight away. It would be too late. You'd be hit, or at best it would be a double knockout." This leaves you with only one viable option, cover, take the hit and then counter.

For WT hands on centre this is the case

You are going to get hit, learn how to take one. You have no choice but to take the hit. The scenario is one that sets you up to fail from every angle it is pursued

That's why not to do as WT does

Now since I obviously fail to see how VT (or any method) can overcome this situation unscathed, please enlighten me as to the "Correct" answer.

It's right here on the thread. Maybe try listening instead of talking?

Where is your wu hand?

 

[guy b]

So now trying to participate and make sense out of one of your technical discussions....at your invitation....is considered "trolling"???

Trolling is trolling.

I can't see why anyone would be interested in these long convoluted discussions with you two that always seem to go nowhere except down the rabbit hole.

Odd then how you seem to feature so heavily in any such discussion?

 

[Nobody Important]

It's right here on the thread. Maybe try listening instead of talking?

Really? You cant move your body, that means no knees or kicks, the left hand is disabled and you have no time to launch the right. Any attempt with either hand to stop the incoming strike is hand chasing and will fail, counter punching with the right is a step behind (best case scenario) is to achieve a simultaneous strike. The only option is cover. Pretend you hold some secret that only WSLPBVT people who received the true knowledge are privy too. I don't really care. If your method is based on contemplating riddles and hypothetical scenarios, I don't want anything to do with it.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ Robin has to wait for Batman to reemerge tomorrow to tell him the answer.

 

[KPM]

Odd then how you seem to feature so heavily in any such discussion?

Yeah, odd that I can carry on discussions with others just fine. Odd that others here in the forum carry on discussions just fine. But when any discussion involves one of you two, it goes down the rabbit hole rather quickly. Indeed odd!

 

[guy b]

Yeah, odd that I can carry on discussions with others just fine. Odd that others here in the forum carry on discussions just fine. But when any discussion involves one of you two, it goes down the rabbit hole rather quickly. Indeed odd!

I can't see why anyone would be interested in these long convoluted discussions with you two that always seem to go nowhere except down the rabbit hole

Why are you posting in a discussion you don't find interesting?