Good Cop / Bad Cop

[Cryozombie]

Believe or not Cyro, that is my (and a lot of officers I know) goal..Doing just enough to get the person the person cuffed and into the cruiser.. I attempt to start a dialog with almost every encounter..Unfortunately it always seems to wind up in a physical altercation when the person decides that they are NOT going to be cuffed or go to jail..

I think there is more to it than that... "Enough" is when I call and say "some stranger is beating on my door at 3am" and you don't come say "Oh, ignore it, he was probably just passing thru your yard", but rather take the time to get a description and make me feel safe... *I* don't see "enough" as just not going too far. When I call for help and get blown off, and then when I am minding my own buisness and get harrassed, it makes me think cops are... less than neccessary. I think that would be easy to fix.

Most people wear a sign that says Stop and Question me

MOST people? Why? If MOST people look/act a certain way, that's the norm right?

Let me ask the cops here... What "flags" a person to be stopped and questioned who you have no evidence of having broken the law? Do you not like the way they dress? Or how they walk, or that their car isn't new with a nice wash and wax job? What is the criteria for "ooh, I better check this guy out" ?

 

[KP.]

Then address them with someone, such as the mayor or chief. They're the ones who set the policy, and many of the things they (the cops) have to do, is a directive from the higher ups, because of the citizen complaints.

MJS -- first, as to how I'd handle a person who is resisting. I imagine it would depend entirely on the specific circumstances at the time. I have not denied that the use of force can be justified given particular circumstances. There is, however, no one specific answer to such a hypothetical precisely because the totality of circumstance can not be known. I would ultimately hope, however, that I would not exceed my authority nor unnecessarily risk damage to the person I was attempting to restrain.

That said, when was the last time such complaints were listened to from a minority community and action taken on them?

Like you, such officials immediately jump to the belief that any complaints are exaggerations, biased, and invalid based on the people making them. After all, if they didn't deserve to be treated however they were treated, they wouldn't have, and they were only treated within the bounds of policy, because to admit otherwise would be to admit that such officials were being derelict in their duties.

Major cities receive upwards of tens of thousands of complaints each year, and on a typical year, only a few hundred are investigated. Except for the most egregious abuses, the worst that a cop can expect is a minor administrative punishment, when the same actions by a civilian would result in prosecution and parole, if not prison.

What good are complains when the police simply are not held to the standard of the law?

How many folks have seen police fly down the streets sirens blaring to get back to their car to clock out? Or just hit the lights to blow through a yellow or red when they didn't want to obey the traffic laws. Yet dare to drive 3 miles over the speed limit in front of that same officer.

The assumption is always that the other guy was wrong. Always.

Out of high school I joined the army, mainly for the GI Bill so I could afford to go to school. I hung around a bit as I liked it. I received nothing but the highest reviews, was promoted regularly, and by all accounts was an excellent soldier.

I am very polite, I always say 'Sir' or 'Ma'am' no matter who I'm addressing (strict Baptist upbringing more than the military on that one). I always look the person I'm speaking with directly in the eye. I am never anything but respectful when speaking to anyone in person. (I realize my writing style is terse and is often mis-construed as rude. But that reading does not adequately reflect my personality).

Yet, I have never once had a pleasant interaction with the police, from the time I was a kid until this day. Over a period of nearly 50 years and the only times I've met with the police, under any circumstances, it's been at best unpleasantly distasteful, and at worst a small dose of hell. Why?

I must be a total scumbag right? I mean being a young guy in a nice car near my parent's home means I must be suspect. After all, no one there can be expected to be successful, so I must be guilty of something.

Or maybe being a kid on a stoop at the wrong time. Obviously I must have been involved, right? No kid in town could possibly just be sitting reading. After all, people like me don't read.

Or, go to a high quality school in the right parts of this county, and immediately one is a suspect if you're not one of the good ol' boys.

I know why I'm being stopped, and it has nothing what-so-ever with any valid reason. But hey, I'm wrong 'cause if only I wasn't what the cops were looking for I'd be fine. Well, that is simply not true.

Now, I recognize that there are good cops out there. I recognize that they are the majority. But I also recognize that the bad cops are more numerous than the police would like us to believe, and I recognize that they do more damage than the average person realizes. Precisely because the average person is shielded from the reasons cops become abusive in the first place -- which leads them to develop certain prejudices and frustrations that such bad cops take out on those who in any-way represent the sources of those issues.

But the only solution to the problem is that the rest of the police force stop making excuses and start taking action. When the police unions stop protecting the bad cops and start demanding vigorous investigations and equal treatment under the law, then the problem will diminish. But until then, it won't go away because the only people who can make it go away have their jobs tied, at least in part, to denying that real problems exist.

 

[Drac]

I think there is more to it than that... "Enough" is when I call and say "some stranger is beating on my door at 3am" and you don't come say "Oh, ignore it, he was probably just passing thru your yard", but rather take the time to get a description and make me feel safe....

I'm sorry that the LEO's on your city treat your requests for service that way..My departments responds to ALL calls, and would be in deep doo-doo if he refused or gave you such a lame excuse as he is cutting through your yard...

when I am minding my own buisness and get harrassed, it makes me think cops are... less than neccessary. I think that would be easy to fix

There HAS too be a reason that your are being targeted...As I don't know your history I cannot comment on that...

MOST people? Why? If MOST people look/act a certain way, that's the norm right?..Let me ask the cops here... What "flags" a person to be stopped and questioned who you have no evidence of having broken the law? Do you not like the way they dress? Or how they walk, or that their car isn't new with a nice wash and wax job? What is the criteria for "ooh, I better check this guy out" ?

Not an easy answer..

4AM I spot one of those tricked out cars cruising through one of our housing developments..I run the plate an it comes back to a city 2 hrs away..We pull the car down and its occupied by males..I see 3 cell phones and 2 pages sitting on center council all the other occupants are wearing cell phones and pages..We begin a dialog of Are you lost??..They are looking for their friend who live in the township..They can only supply a first name and no address..Now is this suspicious???

A lone male hanging in the area where there has been a rash of drug related crimes..He is dressed in true gang-banger-wanna-be fashion.Is this suspicious???.We approach and question him..He is waiting for a ride..We get his name and address and say good night..

A nice clean waxed vehicle or a bondo buggy is driving down the street with his stero BLAIRING..We pull him down and advise him of the noise ordinance law..We check his license to make sure he is the owner...He is and this is the first time he has been stopped for this offense...He is advised and sent...The loud radio is always a check me out sign..

 

[shesulsa]

I'm wondering if our LEO members could offer any kind of suggestions to law-abiding citizens who have had negative experiences with the police in their respective areas?

For instance, if a citizen feels they cooperated in every possible way but were mistreated through violence, mistreatment, etcetera ... let's just say the possibility exists for argument's sake ... is there anything at all a citizen can do? Anyone they should talk to? Write to? Anything?

It really does happen, fellas. I was pulled over for a simple traffic violation and the officer called me "meathead" and "witch" (with a capital B) and various other unsavory words. I was very polite, very cooperative, had my documents ready, didn't get out of the car, wasn't angry ....

IS there a recourse for ill-treated citizens who respect and obey the law?

 

[KP.]

Its an excuse for people who have had some 'misfortune' with the cops, to bash them. Can't be done in the LEO thread, so it was brought here. Interesting how a) the good things the cops do are never brought up and b) no solutions are ever mentioned. Oh well....

Actually, the reason I opened the thread was because in the LEO thread about restraining techniques and if they could injure a person I commented that in my experience a few too many police enjoy injuring people, sad as that reality is.

A discussion ensued in which several claimed that not only is it not the case but it was even said that in all cases no one would be injured if the person being detained would just do what the officer asked. I challenged that belief precisely because of the claim that it was true for all encounters.

I attempted to provide some information on police brutality as a reality, but no matter the citation I was informed that it was biased and therefore dismissive.

I brought the thread here hoping to stir some discussion precisely because it appears that the common refrain from the police is "this doesn't happen, any claim it does is ********, people only get what they deserve."

I am honestly stunned at that response. Moreover, I wonder how MJS thinks an academic could provide a solution when those who would need to buy into implementing a solution deny the existence of a problem and seem to believe that any data to the otherwise is made up and misconstrued.

 

[KP.]

IS there a recourse for ill-treated citizens who respect and obey the law?

Obviously I'm not an LEO, but from my personal experience, and the data I've seen is "no."

Oh, there are forms you can fill out, but if an investigation into the events happen (which the studies suggest is a very rare thing indeed) the most one can expect is minor administrative action, regardless of the severity of the officer's actions.

 

[Cryozombie]

It really does happen, fellas. I was pulled over for a simple traffic violation and the officer called me "meathead" and "witch" (with a capital B) and various other unsavory words. I was very polite, very cooperative, had my documents ready, didn't get out of the car, wasn't angry

No, Shesulsa, there must be more to this story that you aren't telling us about.

And besides, it wouldn't have happened if you hadn't broken the law.

:angel:

 

[Drac]

I'm wondering if our LEO members could offer any kind of suggestions to law-abiding citizens who have had negative experiences with the police in their respective areas?

For instance, if a citizen feels they cooperated in every possible way but were mistreated through violence, mistreatment, etcetera ... let's just say the possibility exists for argument's sake ... is there anything at all a citizen can do? Anyone they should talk to? Write to? Anything?

It really does happen, fellas. I was pulled over for a simple traffic violation and the officer called me "meathead" and "witch" (with a capital B) and various other unsavory words. I was very polite, very cooperative, had my documents ready, didn't get out of the car, wasn't angry ....

IS there a recourse for ill-treated citizens who respect and obey the law?

You can always make an appointment with Chief of Police or the Safety Director to discuss this...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

1-file your complaints with chief of police, mayor, county executive, state gov. etc.
2- write your representatives
3- write local papers
4- put up a website outlining your problems
5- post notices calling attention to the issue
6- hold a public rally on the steps of city hall

If you feel your rights were violated, defend them, protect them and realize you may go through a lot of crap in the process.

In the end, the only rights you really have are those you're willing to die over.

I don't think someone with a bad attitude is worth taking a bullet over....having a lamp rammed up my back end however might be.

 

[KP.]

You can always make an appointment with Chief of Police or the Safety Director to discuss this...

rofl

 

[Bob Hubbard]

rofl

In that case, lead an armed uprising and create the society you think should be.

There's only about 900,000 cops, and 3 million military (active and reserve) standing in your way.

 

[Cryozombie]

There's only about 900,000 cops, and 3 million military (active and reserve) standing in your way.

Nah man, if you believe the anti-bush crowd, all our military is tied up overseas... theres none left here.

 

[The Last Legionary]

A million cops eh? Wonder how many complaints they get.

Oh, no one get up. I looked for you.

Highlights include the following:

During 2002 large State and local law enforcement agencies, representing 5% of agencies and 59% of officers, received a total of 26,556 citizen complaints about police use of force.
About a third of all force complaints in 2002 were not sustained (34%).
Twenty-five percent were unfounded,
23% resulted in officers being exonerated,
and 8% were sustained.

Using sustained force complaints as an indicator of excessive force results in an estimate of about 2,000 incidents of police use of excessive force among large agencies in 2002.

06/06 NCJ 210296

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/ccpuf.htm

Just because a cop asks you questions, stops you, detains you, or asks you to move along, doesn't mean it's abuse.

It might be your car, it might be your porch, it might be your house, but the cop doesn't know that. He has a complaint with vague information to check on. He's also human, and has bad days too. Do you piss and moan because someone at Dorky Dumbnuts didn't gush and giggle all over you while bringing you your over priced doughball and brown liquid?

Then again, if you're always getting stopped, you might want to look at what's really happening, and take both your head and that stick out your ***.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Nah man, if you believe the anti-bush crowd, all our military is tied up overseas... theres none left here.

There's at least 20,000 here....
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70254

 

[KP.]

Oh, no one get up. I looked for you.

. . .

Those are filed complaints, which are not particularly representative of actual events.

Look at inquiries on how to file complaints, and in most large cities you'll see that number is an order of magnitude higher than the actual complaints filed. Then consider that a large number of people are never going to complain . . . either due to a belief (largely correct) that nothing will be done, or because they have a fear of police contact due to their own legal status.

 

[KP.]

In that case, lead an armed uprising and create the society you think should be.

There's only about 900,000 cops, and 3 million military (active and reserve) standing in your way.

I guess I'm not surprised that people are so dismissive of this topic, but it is sad.

 

[Empty Hands]

It was not an african-american, or asia-american, or latino, or white guy, or any other nationality but one, that brought the world trade center down. It was only one nationality. ANd they were of middle eastern decent.

They could have sent John Walker Lindh or Jose Padilla. Or, domestic terrorists like Timothy McVeigh could decide to become more active, especially now that a black Democrat is President.

 

[jks9199]

I'm wondering if our LEO members could offer any kind of suggestions to law-abiding citizens who have had negative experiences with the police in their respective areas?

For instance, if a citizen feels they cooperated in every possible way but were mistreated through violence, mistreatment, etcetera ... let's just say the possibility exists for argument's sake ... is there anything at all a citizen can do? Anyone they should talk to? Write to? Anything?

It really does happen, fellas. I was pulled over for a simple traffic violation and the officer called me "meathead" and "witch" (with a capital B) and various other unsavory words. I was very polite, very cooperative, had my documents ready, didn't get out of the car, wasn't angry ....

IS there a recourse for ill-treated citizens who respect and obey the law?

You have several routes to deal with police conduct that you are unhappy with. You can contact the officer's immediate supervisor; they may be able to explain what happened or resolve the situation directly.

You can file a formal complaint with the agency; every agency has an established policy and method. Some may not accept or may not take as seriously an anonymous complaint, unless it's clearly a serious matter. Some treat any complaint, even obviously frivolous ones (like the person who complained that a cop actually ate his lunch...) as if the cop committed a murder.

If you feel the agency isn't going to respond, you can complain to the appropriate government (city, town, or county), as well. If you go to your councilman or town manager or county board, well, the old rule about fecal matter flowing down hill applies.

Or you can complain to the state attorney general's office. Or even the FBI.

In other words -- there's lots of recourse. But you actually have move within channels, instead of simply whining or complaining to your buddies.

And... if you're simply not sure about something you've seen or heard, I know that I (and probably several of the others here) are happy to try to answer questions. I'm not going to give legal advice, I'm not going to arm-chair quarterback something that I wasn't involved in... but I will generally answer "why did they..." type questions. (There are also several LE forums on the web where much the same thing can be done.)

 

[The Last Legionary]

Those are filed complaints, which are not particularly representative of actual events.

Look at inquiries on how to file complaints, and in most large cities you'll see that number is an order of magnitude higher than the actual complaints filed. Then consider that a large number of people are never going to complain . . . either due to a belief (largely correct) that nothing will be done, or because they have a fear of police contact due to their own legal status.

If you don't file the complaint, nothing can be investigated or looked into.
If you don't file the complaint properly, then you delay action.
Ten people will watch a fight crying "why won't anyone do something".
One will call for help.
Who's the smart one, and who are the dumb asses?

As to this: "fear of police contact due to their own legal status.", you mean illegals and criminals aren't taken serious when they complain about the cops? Gee, maybe that's because the gave up their credibility when they chose to break the law in the first place.

Either be part of the solution, or be a victim all the time.
I ain't gots no sympthys for da victms man.

I guess I'm not surprised that people are so dismissive of this topic, but it is sad.

Ok, you're right. There's a vast conspiracy going on, and right now, in a sekret section here, all the cop be plotting and schemin on how to keeps you down. They be laughing, busting mad jokes bout hows dey yank arm and be crankin you junk just cuz you be.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Guys, they want a whine fest, for everyone to see how evil cops are, and how wrong it all is. They aren't interested in solutions, they've already given up and want to cling to being a helpless "oh help me help me, pity me pity me" victim.

I refuse to be a victim, I refuse to pity pathetic people. Cowards can do as the please.
I choose battle.