Good Cop / Bad Cop

[Cryozombie]

However, a bunch of cops standing around talking "war stories" is far from "evidence: of anything.

Right... but if a "bad guy" told a "story", he'd be admitting a crime, right?

 

[GBlues]

Police Officers have bad days like everybody else. YOu know I have been pulled over for speeding. And doing it well over criminal speeds. The deal is this. Officers get lied to, treated like garbage, and generally most are thought to be total jerks. I tell the truth. I was speeding. That's it no excuses. I ran the stop sign, I didn't see anybody coming and so I just drove past it. I slowed down to look. ( California Stop). Been pulled over at night, turn my dome light on. I always answer with yes sir, no sir. And you know what I have never, been given a ticket. A few warnings, but never a ticket. If you treat people the way that you want to be treated, it automatically puts them at ease. And therefore regardless of there job, are more apt to treat you the way they want to be treated, or would want to be treated in that situation.

Another time I set the alarm off at my previous job. I'd got back late, to the shop. It was dark, and people were running all over the place, it's a bad neighborhood, all I wanted was to get dressed in my riding gear, and get out of there. I unlock the door, and turn the alarm off, ( well, I'd thought I turned the alarm off), about 10 minutes later cops pull up. I look out the front door and realize that apparently I have not turned the alarm off, cause they are flashing the lights in the shop. Now, understand I'm dressed head to toe, in a bandana, leather jacket, riding boots, I look like somebody that doesn't belong. So this female officer is holding her light into the office, and I figure I'd better let her in so that I can set things straight. Well, as I'm walking up, with my back pack in my hand, I see her pull her side arm out and it's pointed at me. So I unlock the front door, and slowly open it, and I tell her, "Don't shoot I'm not armed. All I have is my backpack", and I placed it outside the door first, and stepped out. She kept her weapon drawn and pointed at my chest, and if I had spooked her I have no doubt, she'd have killed me dead on the spot. She was close enough that there was no way that she could have missed. She asked who I was what I was doing there, etc... Are you supposed to be here....you know standard questions. Again I anwered Yes, ma'am, no ma'am, etc... Next thing I know her partner comes walking around the corner and scares the crap out of me. HAHA! He asks if he I have any weapons and I tell him the truth, " No, Sir" He then asked if he could search my bag, and I told him not a problem. He then searched my person, no problem, except for the grabbing of my junk, which was a little awkward, but ok. They were at ease at that point. Just same old same. Guy didn't turn the alarm off correctly. Asked what I was riding I told him, he had one of there other partners that I didn't see verify. I had to make a few phone calls, and let them talk to my boss, no problem. We were talking bikes, and cracking jokes before we all left. Simple.

Now I have had other experiences that aren't so good. I've met cops that just exude I'm a mean guy, and I don't like the way you look, and I'm going to abuse my power to make you feel like garbage. However, in my experience if your respectful right off of the bat, and are honest, and not nervous, and not hostile, they will treat you the same. Respect goes along ways for all concerned. In the previous experience I could have been all nasty with them for even being there, (Which was my fault cause I screwed up turning the alarm off), and the fact that they thought it was necassary to pull a gun on me. HOwever, they don't have the luxury of giving me the benefit of the doubt. They don't know me. Once things are on a social level, that is acceptable to them, there attitude changed. Guns got put away, and note pads, and pencils came out taking notes.

However, like all groups, gangs etc. And yes the police department is a gang. It is a gathering of 2 or more like minded individuals. WHich constitutes a gang. There will always be those in groups or gangs, or motorcycle clubs or whatever, that are just bad apples. 80-90% may do there best to do a good job, or follow the law. But it only takes 10-20% to give the other 80 to 90% a bad name. That's it. just a small group of guys to go around and screw up public opinion of your group, and it's over. People will never think of your group the way that the good members of it see it. Cause they have experienced the bad group, and it doesn't matter that your just doing your job. They will label you with the rest of the ******* cops of the world. That's just the way it is. Yeah police brutality exists, but I would say that on the whole it happens far less than most people would like to believe.

And that folks is my two cents. ABBDBDBDBD THAT'S ALL FOLKS!

 

[shesulsa]

Cryo, I think you should share Illinois LEO stories here.

It's always disheartening for people who hold LEOs in high regard to hear stories of corruption or bad behavior and most don't want to accept it. That is a mistake, friends. There are always at least two sides to every story and while most criminals likely lie about their treatment or the need thereof, there are plenty of people who are treated as criminals who aren't. There are some LEOs who are more than willing to tweak a little further, hit a little harder, escalate a little sooner just because they can or because they want to or they're having a real bad day.

Open, respectful conversation about this can help keep the profession honest and, hopefully, weed out those who should probably find another profession. Perhaps in executive protection.

 

[Cryozombie]

Cryo, I think you should share Illinois LEO stories here.

Most of my personal stories are either simply bad attitude cops, (two I shared with MJS via PM) or are stories I heard from the cops themselves, which Arc has already stated don't prove nothing... *rolls eyes* So instead I think I will bow out before I get angry and stupid on here.

But, since you asked... if you want to see Illinois cops in action...

The actual initial video doesn't make it apparent that guy was a cop, but it was BIIIIIIGGGG news here when it happened, and then the cops tried to cover it up.

 

[Archangel M]

One again, who's is saying there are no problems out there?

Goggle Louisiana PD and Corruption and see what you get. One cop was fingered in a robbery/homicide when she came back to the store to investigate the murders SHE committed. By a victim that survived by hiding in a cabinet.

There are two sides of the story. Unfortunately I cant tell any of the details about flat out lies about officer behavior or just plain wacky accusations by clueless people. Because accusations are investigations and hence private. You can FOIL the details if you like.

The thing to realize is that not all cops are trained, behave or act the same way. The cops here can be "cool" and the cops in the city next door entirely different. And even within that city one precinct can have a different culture form another. NYPD is the size of an army for crying out loud, expecting them all to act like the officer in your sleepy burb just isnt gonna happen.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Bad cop stories:

- I have heard from reliable sources that during several robbery investigations, the officers on the location helped themselves to items like chips, soda etc.
- I've seen on several occations cars run lights, etc that did not appear to be responding to calls. One was doing at least 45 in a 30, to return to the office. Must have been a shift ending.
- A local department was called on the table for harassment and profiling.
- An Orleans County Deputy was convicted of violating a prisoners rights when he walked on the prisioners penis, repeatedly.
- Numerous complaints are on file against the same department for violations in the womans prision, including rape of prisioners.

My own direct experiences have been mostly acceptable, down to inviting 2 FBI agents into my home. One sadly was quite alergic to cats. LOL

In all cases I am polite, respectful and slow moving. I've provided my official permit to operate a vehicle on a public road (NY Drivers Licence) and the proof of vehicle ownership and permission to operate vehicle on a public road (NYS Registration) and proof of safe vehicle (NYS Inspection Sticker) as well as proof of insurance coverage mandated to operate a licenced vehicle on public roads (Insurance Card) when requested without argument.

I also avoid frequenting known areas of concern (poor neighborhoods, night clubs, bars) or associating with those who go out "looking for a little fun".

I know my rights, I have several lawyers on my "speed dial" and "client list", as well as officers in several departments. Despite that, I don't act like an *** when dealing with them, and so far haven't been beaten up, locked up, or had my anus probed.


Speaking of which, Let us not forget that inserting a lamp up a suspects *** is not a legit method in the US, outside of a certain interegation center in Cuba.

 

[Archangel M]

And if you continue with that approach I don't forsee you having many problems.

 

[KP.]

Why do you find that ludicrous? I've seen people comply while being arrested and no injuries happen.

Because the statement is an absolute. Yes, the vast majority of police are good guys who never do anything wrong, walk on water, and heavenly choirs of angels begin to sing when they walk into a room. But there are also exceptions to that. And to think that if everyone just complied no one would ever get hurt is ludicrous. Police abusing the public is not some fantasy, it happens every day. It is the exception to the norm, but it happens, and to suggest that it's the victim's fault is wrong.

IMHO, you seem to be under this impression that if any force is used, the cop is in the wrong.

Not at all. The police have every right to use force to control a situation, protect themselves, the public, and to limit the harm to who ever they are trying to control if that is possible. And I also realize that when force is used it is the norm that it is being used appropriately.

Let me ask you...have you had some bad run ins with the law?

Repeatedly, yes.

Lets put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. Please tell us, if you were an LEO, how you would handle someone resisting? If you seem to think that anything more than a gentle touch is abuse, please share with us how you would handle this?

I don't think anything more than a gentle touch is abuse. Do you think police abuses of power don't happen? Do you think that it's never the cops in the wrong?

Are you kidding me?? Community policing is a huge thing with many PDs today . . . Some of these guys are walking so as to better interact with the public.

Great, hope it works for them. Community policing doesn't happen where I grew up.

Why is the race card always brought into play???

Well, first, I didn't bring up race, I brought up socio-economic status. But I'll give you a pass since that does correlate strongly to race in this country (we could get into a whole new discussion as to why that is, but I'll pass on that for now).

Second, it's brought up because it is a huge factor in the discussion. Minorities are disproportionately the victims of police brutality when it happens. They are disproportionately the target of arrests and prosecutions. There are more than a few studies that clearly indicate that minorities are treated more harshly by the justice system at all levels.

As for caring, my experience has always been that the people cared, but rarely did most anyone else.

 

[Archangel M]

Repeatedly, yes.

Ever stop and wonder......why?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Cryo, I think you should share Illinois LEO stories here.

It's always disheartening for people who hold LEOs in high regard to hear stories of corruption or bad behavior and most don't want to accept it. That is a mistake, friends. There are always at least two sides to every story and while most criminals likely lie about their treatment or the need thereof, there are plenty of people who are treated as criminals who aren't. There are some LEOs who are more than willing to tweak a little further, hit a little harder, escalate a little sooner just because they can or because they want to or they're having a real bad day.

Open, respectful conversation about this can help keep the profession honest and, hopefully, weed out those who should probably find another profession. Perhaps in executive protection.

While in High School local police officer would Detain people and search them for alcohol and or drugs. This in itself was a good thing. The problem was he used it in the High School Parking lot to seel back to the kids and to "make friends" with some of the young ladies.

One day he was there. The next he had left the state, and was working in Florida as a police officer(cop). He came back 5 years later (* read everyone who had kids in high school, those kids had graduated *) but I recognized him back in uniform when he would respond to a place I worked.

I think he was smarter in his "dealings" with the public, but he was not your Good Police Officer either.

But that was one guy with a referrence from his management and then was able to come back, so I blame him and those who hired him back. I did not and do not blame the other officers of the department.



On the other hand, I have been pulled over to be told I had a light out, and told to get it fixed. I have had police officers stop when I was broke down on the side of the road.

Like I said it takes a few bad ones to make things look real bad for a lot of people. It too a long time for the police reputation in my area to get respectable or should I say out of disrespect after the issues that I saw in HS and College era.


I had one officer get upset, as he told me I lied to him and that my license was suspended. My license had never been suspended. The probation after one is 18 for accidents was extended as I was hit by the local news crew twice in a month. It was a bad snow season, and they just lost control of their vehicle and slid into me. But it was a report. So I was extended. I went to court to get it dropped. The officer was even madder for looking bad in court. But, he just stormed out after I showed the error was that his screen on his LEAN computer did not tab to the next page to show the dates.

I was traveling from one location of work to another for a meeting. I was driving a company car. There was this lady who pulled into the left lane of the expressway doing 50 mph while I was doing 65 (* the posted speed *). I hit the brakes and lifted my hand to check my speed. I was concerned I had been speeding and not known it. A man in his mid to late 20's in a company car causing an accident for speeding is not good. I realized I had not been speeding but that she was going so slow. After about 5 miles she got back over and I passed her and kept on my trip.

About 10 minutes later a police officer pulls up beside me and the signals to get in behind me and the turns on his lights. I pull over. I roll down the window and have all my information cards ready. As he walks up he swings his hand and hits me flat in the chest and then grabs and yanks me half out of the car. He shakes me and asks," Do you know who you flipped off buddy? That was the wife of the (* Sensored *) Chief of Police? " I try to explain that I did not flip any one off. He then tried to give me a speeding ticket. I asked to see the equipment or how he knew I was speeding. We were in bumper to bumper traffic at about 60 mph. He had been using his brights and flashing them to get people to move out of his way. I just let him proceed to give me the ticket with no arguement. I recorded the time of the initial event and with his hit and also what hsi badge number and name were. (* I sometimes cannot read the names on the tickets *) He got upset and wanted to know how I coudl be driving a company car. I was too young so it must be stolen. I then produced the paperwork I offered up front that was Company internal paper work to authrize my usage of the vehicle.

I scheduled a date in court and took the time off of work. The judge was a real hanging judge. A jacket was not good enough, no tie you were in contempt. If you were in his court room you were guilty by default the issue was just how guilty. (* He actually said that to everyone before he began. *) I had to wait outside as the officer was not there. (* Note: Police station and court were in the same building for this jurisdiction. *) The judge came out and handed me my signed ticket and told me I was free to go, but that there was a note that said I wanted to speak to him. He asked what for. With other officers standing around (* I had been watched, and I over heard many speaking out loud, that they could not believe I showed up. *), I told him that the officer hit me. He said, well I can hold the ticket and you can come back, and we can let both of you say your peace. At that time I could bring charges if the thought there sufficient evidence. I smiled and said, "Thank you, sir. I will take the ticket and go home." He smiled and said smart man.

 

[MJS]

Because the statement is an absolute. Yes, the vast majority of police are good guys who never do anything wrong, walk on water, and heavenly choirs of angels begin to sing when they walk into a room. But there are also exceptions to that. And to think that if everyone just complied no one would ever get hurt is ludicrous. Police abusing the public is not some fantasy, it happens every day. It is the exception to the norm, but it happens, and to suggest that it's the victim's fault is wrong.

Have I said that all cops are angels or are you putting words in my mouth? You make it sound like out of 10 cases of arrests, all 10 are going to involve abuse. I call BS on that!

Not at all. The police have every right to use force to control a situation, protect themselves, the public, and to limit the harm to who ever they are trying to control if that is possible. And I also realize that when force is used it is the norm that it is being used appropriately.

And I'm sure there are cases when it is and when it isn't. I have not said otherwise.

Repeatedly, yes.

IMO, and I think it may be the impression that you're giving others as well, but it seems that you're painting all cops with the same brush. If someone tells me a story of what happened to them, I can only assume that they're telling me the truth. Of course, they may be lying to make themselves sound better as well. Cryo has privately shared with me 2 incidents that happened to him. In both cases, I told him that I felt he got a raw deal. Is he BSing me as to what really happened? Don't know, but seeing that I've known him for a while on the board, as he used to be staff here, I'm inclined to say that he wasn't hiding anything.

I don't think anything more than a gentle touch is abuse. Do you think police abuses of power don't happen? Do you think that it's never the cops in the wrong?

Please answer the question. How would you handle someone resisting? Once again, don't put words in my mouth to attempt to pad your case. I don't believe I have said that all cops are angels. If I have, please point that post out to me.

Great, hope it works for them. Community policing doesn't happen where I grew up.

What a shame.

Well, first, I didn't bring up race, I brought up socio-economic status. But I'll give you a pass since that does correlate strongly to race in this country (we could get into a whole new discussion as to why that is, but I'll pass on that for now).

Second, it's brought up because it is a huge factor in the discussion. Minorities are disproportionately the victims of police brutality when it happens. They are disproportionately the target of arrests and prosecutions. There are more than a few studies that clearly indicate that minorities are treated more harshly by the justice system at all levels.

As for caring, my experience has always been that the people cared, but rarely did most anyone else.

Man, for a minute there I thought I was reading an article from the ACLU. As I said in my other post...people control how they act. Example only here: If more blacks are arrested for selling crack, compared to Hispanic and white, and they're arrested more...how is that discriminating? The ACLU would and I'm sure already has done studies on stuff like that. Actually, I posted this a while ago. Classic example. Those studies are biased and compiled by people who have an agenda.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I am actually scared of Cops.

I know some cops are good and some are crooked but in my experience
here in Miami I have only met bad ones.

I have had cops take me out of a Burger King while I was peacefully eating lunch because according to them I told someone I had a gun(I never said that!!)

Many times riding my bike home during the day I am stopped and questioned where am I going where did I come from.

I have been stopped on my way to the groccery store because supposely I fit a Robbery suspect but I was being asked Sexual questions by the Cops.

I am an average looking guy not "Thug 4 life"

And there is no more to the story that may apply.

Yea I am scared of cops here in Miami because I never know what they will say or do.

 

[Cryozombie]

Oh, look at this mornings News.

http://usnews.feedroom.com/?fr_story=bf034eff367f97e0d9c5ac7b75999866770c73a1&rf=rss

Hey, its ok, he wasn't complying, and they made a Judgement call.

*rolls eyes*

 

[MJS]

Oh, look at this mornings News.

http://usnews.feedroom.com/?fr_story=bf034eff367f97e0d9c5ac7b75999866770c73a1&rf=rss

Hey, its ok, he wasn't complying, and they made a Judgement call.

*rolls eyes*

Many PDs today, have their officers respond to medical calls. I would imagine it isn't anything too in-depth, so possibly MRT or at the most EMT level. Seems like diabetic shock has symptoms similar to being intoxicated.
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=11165

Should they have asked if he was drunk? Should they have asked if he was having a medical problem? If the symptoms are similar to being drunk, I can see why they would think that, and with him not getting out of the truck.

Using spray, a taser or another less lethal tool in a situation like this is most likely going to be justified.

Slightly off track from this article, let me ask this. For those that are not LEOs, but think that they use too much force...if you were a cop, and told someone to get out of the vehicle and they refused, what would you do to handle the situation?

 

[Archangel M]

Its what a reasonable person would do when faced with the situation that matters NOT what the facts are after all is over with. No matter how people with police issues want to frame things *rolls eyes* *rolls eyes* *rolls eyes*

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Cop Story:

I used to travel across the US/Canada border regularly back in the 90's with some friends. We'd travel around Ft. Erie, St. Cat's and up through Toronto shopping once a month. We usually took 2-3 cars. My then gf had a blue K-Car, mine was a beat up kyrloned Mustang, and this other guy we'll call him "Coyote" cuz I can't remember his name) drove a beat to hell red Buick. Every trip we'd cross over, "Coyote" would get waved to the side for an up close looksie by Canadian -and- US Border Patrol.

On a few cases, they brought out the dogs to sniff around. Never found anything, always was sent along.

Now, let me describe "Coyote".
Asian, looked Hispanic. Sunglasses, all the time. Do Rag, all the time. Leather, All the Time. Studded wrist bands. Goatee.

Talking to a guy I worked with who was a Border Patrol agent a few years later, he let me in on a few of the things they were looking for at the time. Guess what? "Coyote" fit the bill, right down to the beat red car, favored at the time by Mexican drug runners.

You want to avoid trouble? Shower, Shave, dress professional. Bet you have less problems. I've yet to run across cops giving grief to folks driving well maintained vehicles, wearing polo shirts, speaking proper english, and acting passive.

Now a "I know my rights" hippie, repeatedly going "Man...." or "Dude...", dressed like he's going to an Ozzy concert....in a rusty VW van, or smoking Taurus, well.....they get a different reaction.

 

[Cryozombie]

You want to avoid trouble? Shower, Shave, dress professional. Bet you have less problems. I've yet to run across cops giving grief to folks driving well maintained vehicles, wearing polo shirts, speaking proper english, and acting passive.

Now a "I know my rights" hippie, repeatedly going "Man...." or "Dude...", dressed like he's going to an Ozzy concert....in a rusty VW van, or smoking Taurus, well.....they get a different reaction.

And Bob, this is acceptable why?

I ask What's next?

He was black not white so...

He was dressed Flamboyantly and didnt look straight so...

He was fat, therefore...

Why is making these judgements based on any kind appearance acceptable?

And FWIW, if criminals don't goom and wear suits, I point you to Illinois Governer Rod Bla... well, you get the picture...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Never said it was acceptable.

As to the Gov, he got a what? Pocket change bail, and is out and about. $10 says if he looked like Charlie Manson he'd still be in the lockup under a $100k bail option.

Society dictates what is and isn't normal. Cops will relax around normal, and be on edge around not-normal, especially if not-normal is in their percieved threat zone. IE a cop who has had bad run ins with bikers wearing leather, will be more on edge when facing someone else wearing leather. Hell, I'm sometimes uneasy around dudes in jeans and rock tees, and I wear the damn things.

There is a time to fight things, and a time to not fight. Pulled over to the side of the road, I am 1 person, unarmed (legally and technically) against someone who has armed backup and legal authority. He can beat the **** out of me, and if I fight back, I get hit with "Assaulting an officer in the performance of his duties". I may be perfectly justified, he may be completely in the wrong. What do people see? "One of those hippies beating on a cop". What do other cops see? "A cop being attacked". My mission in these encounters is to make them end, as fast and safely as possible for myself, then to seek proper legal council and combat it through the proper channels, in order to attempt to effect change.

People will argue, "Well I got Rights". Sometimes, no you don't. There are parts of the US where the US Constitution doesn't apply. Know what type of jurisdiction you are in.

And if I live in an area so corrupt that I can't fight it or change it, I will get the =hell= out, even if it means abandoning property, friends and family.

You are the General. You choose which battlefield to commt your resources to. Be a smart general. Pick the ones you can win on.

 

[Archangel M]

Well said Bob. Although I would like to add that you should'nt just "roll over" if the cop is obviously "out of bounds"..by all means dont fight it out on the street, but do go through the proper channels and file a complaint. If the dept gives you no satisfaction and you believe it was an aggrieveuous enough of an offense there is always the FBI.

Something people dont realize is that even if they dont feel like their individual case went anywhere, there are many times where the volume of complaints made all the difference. So dont think that just because you never heard back that nothing happened.

However, have some common sense and save the complaining for real "issues", you not liking an "attitude" or a ticket may just be your perception.

 

[Cryozombie]

As to the Gov, he got a what? Pocket change bail, and is out and about. $10 says if he looked like Charlie Manson he'd still be in the lockup under a $100k bail option.

Actually this has more to do with who's in his pocket than the name sewn on the tag in his suit, IMO, but thats a topic for another thread.