Good Cop / Bad Cop

[Andy Moynihan]

Look.



All this about whether cops are heroes or villains is kinda missin' the point.

All they are is human.

But that's the last thing anyone not a cop wants to hear. they ignore the fact that the people who fill the job slots are cut from the same mismatched, ****ed-up cloth as the rest of us and basically turn around and expect them to turn infallible.

What needs to happen, whether it's cops, soldiers, bouncers, whoever handles humanity's ugly side for a living--what needs to happen is for someone to stand up and say Look, there isn't some big mystery to how these guys act. Sure, there is training involved but it isn't like they install some damn computer in your head. You're still a person just like you were before, and just the same KIND you were before.You still get mad and screw up, you still take things personal--maybe more so, the kinda crap you have to put up with in a job like that.

But there's no way anybody in any position to make the words COUNT is ever gonna come out and say this to people.

THAT's your real problem, right there.

 

[Empty Hands]

But that's the last thing anyone not a cop wants to hear. they ignore the fact that the people who fill the job slots are cut from the same mismatched, ****ed-up cloth as the rest of us and basically turn around and expect them to turn infallible.

No, I don't think that is it at all. Everyone in this discussion has made the claim that most police are good people just trying to do their jobs. The problem is the minority of bad people in the mix. I think we all get that.

However, the social and institutional structures in place make it difficult and at times impossible to deal effectively with this small minority. Due to a variety of factors, they are protected. That is the real problem. If that minority was dealt with effectively and quickly, I doubt you would hear many serious complaints (some will always complain in order to attempt to deflect their own guilt).

 

[The Last Legionary]

However, the social and institutional structures in place make it difficult and at times impossible to deal effectively with this small minority. Due to a variety of factors, they are protected. That is the real problem. If that minority was dealt with effectively and quickly, I doubt you would hear many serious complaints (some will always complain in order to attempt to deflect their own guilt).

bull ****.

• Atlanta cop convicted in Kathryn Johnston’s death
• Two ex-New York cops convicted for helping mafia
• Ex-cops Convicted Of Stealing And Reselling Cocaine, Marijuana ...
• Ex-Chicago cop convicted of conspiracy
• Miami cops convicted of corruption in shootings
• Ex-Hackettstown cop sentenced for giving radios to suspected drug ...
• Robbery Ring Disguised as Drug Raids Nets ... Robbery Ring Disguised as Drug Raids Nets Convictions for Former LA Cops,
• Ex-cop convicted of conspiracy -- chicagotribune.com
• Detroit Cops Convicted of Extortion
• Ex-cops convicted of mob hits bash lawyers

That's a short list I found on Google, in the first 3 pages, most are 2007-2008.

If people would complain, go through proper channels, follow up, they'd get justice eventually. Problem is, they want it now, they want it their way, and when they don't they whine.

Google chicago cops convicted and you get over 400,000 hits. Looks like a few of the bad-cops went down. Wonder how many more might if lazy as Chicagoians or whatever you call yourselves (other than helpless victims I mean) would do something about the problem, other than whine.
.

 

[KP.]

As to this: "fear of police contact due to their own legal status.", you mean illegals and criminals aren't taken serious when they complain about the cops? Gee, maybe that's because the gave up their credibility when they chose to break the law in the first place.

So, no one who has broken a law or who is suspected of breaking the law has a right to complain about how they are treated. Good to know.

Either be part of the solution, or be a victim all the time.
I ain't gots no sympthys for da victms man

And people wonder why the "race card" is brought up.

Here's a thought, the reason intimidation tactics are used is because they are in fact intimidating.

It's rather ludicrous to suggest to someone who has just been abused that the way to handle the issue is to complain to the people who just abused you. Oddly, a fair number of people, particularly those who are familiar with how a gang operates, aren't going to be particularly trusting of such a solution. That is even more so when it is fairly well known how few complaints are taken seriously.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003762615_alleybarnes26m.html

Now, I'll grant that Alley-Barnes is most likely a total ***. But several questions are raised -- including why the initial friend was detained.

But really at issue is that these guys were found to have been guilty of serious breaches, yet they were given a walk. So what is the next person in that city who has a run in like this going to do? Obviously complaints are pointless.

 

[Empty Hands]

That's a short list I found on Google, in the first 3 pages, most are 2007-2008.

Sure, but even in my memory, I can think of many police officers caught in brazen misconduct that got away with administrative punishments like suspension with pay (free vacation!) or other slaps on the wrist. Even then, those punishments often only came about because of taped evidence, not testimony of other officers. Unless you have a quantitative study of some sort, then posting Google nuggets is rather useless.

If people would complain, go through proper channels, follow up, they'd get justice eventually. Problem is, they want it now, they want it their way, and when they don't they whine.

From statistics posted earlier in this thread, only 8% of 25,000 or so complaints were substantiated. Take another example posted earlier in this thread from Mr. Parsons. Do you really think a complaint would have worked for him without documentary evidence? That his testimony would be believed over that of the multiple other officers present? That one of those officers would have confessed to his own misconduct or ratted out the others? I rather doubt it. I guess that makes me a cowardly whiner.

 

[KP.]

Yet another biased source:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/19/AR2007061901161_pf.html

 

[KP.]

Yet another biased source:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/19/AR2007061901161_pf.html

But remember, all you have to do is not be a bad guy and talk nicely to the police chiefs and all will be well.

It's just a lie.

Again, I'm sure there are great officers (who are the majority) out there (not my experience, but I still believe it), but instead of the good officers being appalled at these types of incidents and doing everything in their power (which is considerably more than those of the average civilians) to make sure that their own are held accountable to the law, they do the opposite -- engaging in protective silence and exonerating those who are known to be guilty of serious crimes.

Yes, a few are convicted. But most are not.

So why is it that the good officers won't even admit to it being a problem, let alone do something about it?

Guys here who are apparently respected continue to assert that it's only a problem for the bad guys who deserve what they get. Do you folks really believe that? Wait, don't answer ... I already know.

 

[Archangel M]

All you have to do where I am is simply call the station and state you want to file a complaint. If you really want to see something done you have to show up in person. There isnt going to be a suspension or firing on an anonymous complaint that cant be followed up any other way. All complaints that are screened as being a violation of law or policy (vs. "the cop followed me for over 10 minutes" or "the cop shined a flashlight in my car" type complaints...actually fielded that one) will be assigned to a lieutenant for investigation. Officers HAVE been terminated, suspended or disciplined in various instances. You may not hear about it because our dept. isnt too keen on calling the news every time one of our officers gets a few months off for being an idiot...sorry.

When it somes to bad cop stories...

As a cop, what gets my hackles up is the "all cops" tone...not in the sense of "that NEVER happens here" but in the sense that when some cop in New Mexico does something bad then cops over here get looked at askance. If a person were to say "The Chicago Police have problems...or I have had a lot of troubles with the Seattle Cops...." well all I can do is look at your story from the perspective of what I would have done in the same circumstances, but I really cant answer for them. The only similarity between them and I is the job we are asked to do. Otherwise we are day and night in HOW we do things.

If you point the finger at MY department and a situation that I have knowledge of then I may either say "yup that guy has issues" or defend him and his actions.

I just resent being made to feel ashamed of my profession and dept because you had a bad experience on the other side of the country with a dept that may be as different from mine as one in Germany may be.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Its an excuse for people who have had some 'misfortune' with the cops, to bash them. Can't be done in the LEO thread, so it was brought here. Interesting how a) the good things the cops do are never brought up and b) no solutions are ever mentioned. Oh well....

Mike,

I apologize but I believe I did mention that I had officers stop to assist. I did not go into details as that would have been boring. I did try to state that it was just as likely as the other incidents I listed.


Thanks

 

[Rich Parsons]

You can always make an appointment with Chief of Police or the Safety Director to discuss this...

Drac,

In my area the Chief was in on most of the bad dealings and covered the rest. Is there a way to get other police involved?

The reason I ask this is that I was able to get a better response from the the locals when there were present and telling me what happened. i.e. "that must not have been a real gun we don't have gun crimes in this area". I told an employee to call 911 and tell them I needed a state police officer as I was not sure if the police present were real or impersonating officers. The sergeant who was hangin back stepped up and then proceeded to at least pretend to listen to what happened and even wrote down a couple of things. But my point is that they changed their tune real quick as soon as another jurisdiction was to be involved. Is that normal for what I would call a bad "house"?

Thanks

 

[Archangel M]

Drac,

In my area the Chief was in on most of the bad dealings and covered the rest. Is there a way to get other police involved?

The reason I ask this is that I was able to get a better response from the the locals when there were present and telling me what happened. i.e. "that must not have been a real gun we don't have gun crimes in this area". I told an employee to call 911 and tell them I needed a state police officer as I was not sure if the police present were real or impersonating officers. The sergeant who was hangin back stepped up and then proceeded to at least pretend to listen to what happened and even wrote down a couple of things. But my point is that they changed their tune real quick as soon as another jurisdiction was to be involved. Is that normal for what I would call a bad "house"?

Thanks

State Police, State Attny General, The FBI...there are various options. The problem is (As Legionary has said) that many people would rather complain than go through "the hassle" of filing an official complaint.

 

[The Last Legionary]

So, no one who has broken a law or who is suspected of breaking the law has a right to complain about how they are treated. Good to know.

I don't recall saying that. I said the credibility of someone with a record or who is here illegally wasn't worth ****. Don't slur my words boy.

And people wonder why the "race card" is brought up.

Might have something to do with the statistical fact that members of certain races tend to wave it as an excuse way too often when they are caught ****ing up.

Here's a thought, the reason intimidation tactics are used is because they are in fact intimidating.

No ****? Really? I thought it was just cuz the cops be *******s.

It's rather ludicrous to suggest to someone who has just been abused that the way to handle the issue is to complain to the people who just abused you. Oddly, a fair number of people, particularly those who are familiar with how a gang operates, aren't going to be particularly trusting of such a solution. That is even more so when it is fairly well known how few complaints are taken seriously.

Who said complain to the people being jackasses? You go over their head. Unless you're one of those clueless ****tards who think the $7/hr cashier at Wendy's can solve your complaint if you swear at her enough. You go to their boss and then their boss and so on. Squeeky Wheel gets the notice and all that.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003762615_alleybarnes26m.html

Now, I'll grant that Alley-Barnes is most likely a total ***. But several questions are raised -- including why the initial friend was detained.

"Probable Cause". "Was acting suspicious". "Seemed Out Of Place". "Had Stinky Feet and Walked Like He was Smuggling a Python". Got me.
I know. The cop hadn't gotten any from is old lady that morning, and decided to take out his sexual frustrations by stopping the first person he saw who had a face like his old lady.

But really at issue is that these guys were found to have been guilty of serious breaches, yet they were given a walk. So what is the next person in that city who has a run in like this going to do? Obviously complaints are pointless.

No. The point that too many morons miss is that the system isn't perfect. If it was, there would be no crime, no one innocent would ever go to jail, and only criminal would go away. OJ would have been found guilty, Rodney King would have been locked away long before his justified *** kicking, and school shrinks would have recognized the problem long before Colombine. Yes, bad cops get away with crimes. Civilian criminals do too, and corrupt polititians make millions and get off scott free. Welcome to a relly ****ed up world.

Complaints aren't pointless, if they are legitimate, properly filed, followed through, followed up, and escalated higher up the food chain when they stall lower down. This is true with bad cable service, bad food service and bad police service.

But go right on believing it's staked against you, that you're helpless and it's hopeless, like a good little victim.

Sure, but even in my memory, I can think of many police officers caught in brazen misconduct that got away with administrative punishments like suspension with pay (free vacation!) or other slaps on the wrist. Even then, those punishments often only came about because of taped evidence, not testimony of other officers. Unless you have a quantitative study of some sort, then posting Google nuggets is rather useless.

See above please.

From statistics posted earlier in this thread, only 8% of 25,000 or so complaints were substantiated.

Yes. That means that most people complain about stupid **** like getting their feelings hurt and not having their asses kissed, or the rules bent special for them because they feel entitled to special treatment.

Take another example posted earlier in this thread from Mr. Parsons. Do you really think a complaint would have worked for him without documentary evidence? That his testimony would be believed over that of the multiple other officers present? That one of those officers would have confessed to his own misconduct or ratted out the others? I rather doubt it. I guess that makes me a cowardly whiner.

No, but if he had medical evidence, backed up by other witnesses, he could have filed a complaint. One complaint may mean nothing, however that same officer may have a dozen other ones that lacked the evidence and follow through to stick, and his might have been the critical one to put the bad cop away.

Yet another biased source:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/19/AR2007061901161_pf.html

Everyone says the WP is biased. I prefer the Sun anyway. Who can complain about being busted by a Page 3 Girl! Whoo Hoo!

But remember, all you have to do is not be a bad guy and talk nicely to the police chiefs and all will be well.

It's just a lie.

I ain't never had any real problems with cops, be I wearing a suit or a doorag. Must be my deoderant I guess. Couldn't possible by my nonthreatening attitude, simple compliance, and avoidance of most stupid situations that would get me a cop copping a 'tude, dude.

Again, I'm sure there are great officers (who are the majority) out there (not my experience, but I still believe it), but instead of the good officers being appalled at these types of incidents and doing everything in their power (which is considerably more than those of the average civilians) to make sure that their own are held accountable to the law, they do the opposite -- engaging in protective silence and exonerating those who are known to be guilty of serious crimes.

Yes, a few are convicted. But most are not.

Most aren't eh? How many bad cops are there? I can't find a count of "Bad Cops On The Street" anywhere. Must be a sekret society. You keep going on about how the cops protect their own. If it's as common as you claim, can you show me a mere 10 recognized cases where cops protected bad cops from due justice? A problem as prevalient as you claim surely must be easily found on Google. Unless your just full of beans as they say.

So why is it that the good officers won't even admit to it being a problem, let alone do something about it?

What shoud they do about it? The Good Cops follow the law. Oh, they should break the law for you. Got it.

Guys here who are apparently respected continue to assert that it's only a problem for the bad guys who deserve what they get. Do you folks really believe that? Wait, don't answer ... I already know.

Bad things happen to Good people in bad situations. **** happens.
Deal with it in a positive manner...lest I taunt you again and again and again...or find any old excuse to pull you over, handcuff you real tight, depant you, and play hide the flashlight with you while my fake flashers that I bought at RadioShack set the mood with a nice blue and red strobe effect. You'll be happy to believe that I earned that from a NYC cop.

 

[Rich Parsons]

State Police, State Attny General, The FBI...there are various options. The problem is (As Legionary has said) that many people would rather complain than go through "the hassle" of filing an official complaint.

When I called the FBI I could not get an address or set up a time to meet them.

I did take pictures of the locals and I sent it to the chief asking if he wanted it to go public. I was paranoid about finger prints and mailed from the main officer in the largest local city. It seeme to help as they did not know who it came from and lots of the random problems stopped.

Like, I said I have never been upset with being pulled over.

I have lots of bad incidents with police. I also do not like how it seems that every police officer will tell you how you are supposed to react to police officers, and even if you do everything they say in the same department it is wrong.


One Ohio State Tropper pounded on my door window as I fell a sleep on the I-75 rest area. I thought it was better to pull over and rest for a few minutes (* it was cold out and with the car not running I would wake up from being cold before a long time. *) I had been out maybe ten minutes when he wrapped on it with his flash light and yelled at me to leave the area. So I did.

On another trip through Ohio a group of cars started the silly pass and then slow down game, so I stepped on the throttle pedal and passed them to give some room. As I passed under a bridge I saw a line of 7 State Tropper vehicles lined up. The first one pointed at me and then motioned me over to the side while he was out of his car. I brought my vehicle to a stop behind him and the vehicle never skidded or had an ABS engagement. The other vehilces that had also pulled out to follow me just kept going and the other officers chased them down. The officer got out of his car waled back to me and laughed. He had expected to have to chase me down. I told him that my car was always under control and that I could bring it to a stop under control as well. He laughed again, and took my paperwork. He wrote me a ticket. He did not ask me why he stopped me. He did not ask why I was speeding he just wrote me a ticket. When I got the ticket it was for 5 over and not 10. I smiled and told the officer thank you.

On anther trip in Florida, I came off the expressway. There was a stop sign straight ahead and a separate lane to the right with its' own lane afterwards. I slowed down and looked left to check for traffic to see if anyone was coming and if they would signal to get over. No one was coming so I turned back (* 15 mph *) and finished the slow banking curve onto the road. I drove up to the gas station on the right and signaled to turn in. The officer coming from the other direction turned on his lights so I pulled off to the side. I presented all of my paperwork including my CPL paperwork. He aksed where the firearm was and I told him locked up at home in Michigan as I planned on spending time on the beach. He laughed and asked me if I knew why he pulled me over. I replied no idea offcicer. He replied that I have run a stop sign. I looked over at where the sign should be and it was there, but from when I started the curve it was behind another bigger sign. So, I missed in my turn to the left and then back to the right. I apologized. I told him I had missed it, and that I had no excuse. He spent about 10+ minutes writing up and checking things on his computer. He gave me a written warning for not stopping at the sign. It would have been $170 and three points. I thanked him for the warning and got gas and went on my vacation.

 

[Archangel M]

Every time I hear "Ive had a lot of problems with the police".....we are to believe it was the "police" that were in error in every instance???

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok. I have a problem with the police.

You guys hit hard. My last major encounter, we locked up, it went to the ground, I got tossed around a bit, then I got it on the head with the stick.


Best damn training session I had that week.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Every time I hear "Ive had a lot of problems with the police".....we are to believe it was the "police" that were in error in every instance???

...There's usually some good reasons?




Rich, the reason you have issues is, you're a big guy, you're an engineer, and you scare the hell outta em, even though you're a gentleman. Plus, you squish people.

 

[MJS]

I wasn't always a cop, I did A LOT of stupid stuff..I have had my share of run ins with local law enforcement because of the company I kept and being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

I have NEVER had any problems because I was respectful, if questioned I answered without lying...I never played the irate citizen routine or the you just messing with me cause I have long hair (that was a gar-en-teed cop attracter back then).I was never cuffed because I never gave them reason too..The cops in the late 60's and early 70's didnt have to worry about being recorded on someones cell phone and were prone to be a little brutal..

And that is the key right there....be respectful. Even if you honestly feel that you are in the right and the cop wrongfully did XYZ, deal with it LATER. I've been pulled over many times, once for going too fast, a few because I was so friggin tired, I swerved and the cop thought I was drunk, so pulled me over. Any time this happened, I'd do anything I could to ease the situation, ie: turn on my interior lights so he could see easier in the car, put my hands on the wheel, be polite, etc. Never had any major issues.

People get pulled over and go on the defense right away, acting like a jerk, so, the downhill process begins.

 

[The Last Legionary]

I see someone filmed one of the complainants and put them up on Youtube.
[yt]VyoDWeDwYRE[/yt]
or

if that don't work.

 

[MJS]

MJS -- first, as to how I'd handle a person who is resisting. I imagine it would depend entirely on the specific circumstances at the time. I have not denied that the use of force can be justified given particular circumstances. There is, however, no one specific answer to such a hypothetical precisely because the totality of circumstance can not be known. I would ultimately hope, however, that I would not exceed my authority nor unnecessarily risk damage to the person I was attempting to restrain.

Let me ask these scenarios of you. You tell someone to get out of their car, they refuse. What would you do?

Person is out of their car, you attempt to cuff them, they resist, what do you do?

Basically, I'm asking, would you use a taser, kneel across their back, etc.? Again, going by your comment in that other thread, i get the strong impression that you think kneeling on the shoulder area is too much force.

That said, when was the last time such complaints were listened to from a minority community and action taken on them?

Well, they added an extra cop in some of the trouble areas, due to some recent serious incidents that have happened. People want to be safe, the city wants to address concerns....that tells me that the issues are being looked at. Of course, how many times have police responded to a serious incident such as a shooting, and the people are afraid or unwilling to help the police? See, its a 2 way street.

Like you, such officials immediately jump to the belief that any complaints are exaggerations, biased, and invalid based on the people making them. After all, if they didn't deserve to be treated however they were treated, they wouldn't have, and they were only treated within the bounds of policy, because to admit otherwise would be to admit that such officials were being derelict in their duties.

People ***** about things all the time, they list a ton of bad things, but again, people such as you, never come up with a solution. Like I said earlier, its a 2 way street.

Major cities receive upwards of tens of thousands of complaints each year, and on a typical year, only a few hundred are investigated. Except for the most egregious abuses, the worst that a cop can expect is a minor administrative punishment, when the same actions by a civilian would result in prosecution and parole, if not prison.

Proof please. How do you know only a few are investigated?

What good are complains when the police simply are not held to the standard of the law?

I never said all cops are angels. Why do you keep missing that?

How many folks have seen police fly down the streets sirens blaring to get back to their car to clock out? Or just hit the lights to blow through a yellow or red when they didn't want to obey the traffic laws. Yet dare to drive 3 miles over the speed limit in front of that same officer.

Proof please? Do you follow the cop and see where he is going?

The assumption is always that the other guy was wrong. Always.

Umm...ok *shrug*

Out of high school I joined the army, mainly for the GI Bill so I could afford to go to school. I hung around a bit as I liked it. I received nothing but the highest reviews, was promoted regularly, and by all accounts was an excellent soldier.

I am very polite, I always say 'Sir' or 'Ma'am' no matter who I'm addressing (strict Baptist upbringing more than the military on that one). I always look the person I'm speaking with directly in the eye. I am never anything but respectful when speaking to anyone in person. (I realize my writing style is terse and is often mis-construed as rude. But that reading does not adequately reflect my personality).

Yet, I have never once had a pleasant interaction with the police, from the time I was a kid until this day. Over a period of nearly 50 years and the only times I've met with the police, under any circumstances, it's been at best unpleasantly distasteful, and at worst a small dose of hell. Why?

A dark cloud must be following you. Seriously though, I have to ask, and feel free to PM me, if you'd rather not publically talk about a given situation, but I have to wonder why this is happening. I find it hard to believe that every single cop you've dealt with has been a jerk. Like I said, they're not all angels, but come on....

I know why I'm being stopped, and it has nothing what-so-ever with any valid reason. But hey, I'm wrong 'cause if only I wasn't what the cops were looking for I'd be fine. Well, that is simply not true.

Why were you stopped?

Now, I recognize that there are good cops out there. I recognize that they are the majority. But I also recognize that the bad cops are more numerous than the police would like us to believe, and I recognize that they do more damage than the average person realizes. Precisely because the average person is shielded from the reasons cops become abusive in the first place -- which leads them to develop certain prejudices and frustrations that such bad cops take out on those who in any-way represent the sources of those issues.

But the only solution to the problem is that the rest of the police force stop making excuses and start taking action. When the police unions stop protecting the bad cops and start demanding vigorous investigations and equal treatment under the law, then the problem will diminish. But until then, it won't go away because the only people who can make it go away have their jobs tied, at least in part, to denying that real problems exist.

Well, I beg to differ on that.

 

[MJS]

Actually, the reason I opened the thread was because in the LEO thread about restraining techniques and if they could injure a person I commented that in my experience a few too many police enjoy injuring people, sad as that reality is.

A discussion ensued in which several claimed that not only is it not the case but it was even said that in all cases no one would be injured if the person being detained would just do what the officer asked. I challenged that belief precisely because of the claim that it was true for all encounters.

I attempted to provide some information on police brutality as a reality, but no matter the citation I was informed that it was biased and therefore dismissive.

I brought the thread here hoping to stir some discussion precisely because it appears that the common refrain from the police is "this doesn't happen, any claim it does is ********, people only get what they deserve."

And I think that being able to provide an alternative to the problem is a beginning to solving an issue at hand. You claim cops are abusive. If you think that kneeling on the back is wrong, what is an alternative? Not every cop is a bashing machine.

I am honestly stunned at that response. Moreover, I wonder how MJS thinks an academic could provide a solution when those who would need to buy into implementing a solution deny the existence of a problem and seem to believe that any data to the otherwise is made up and misconstrued.

The typical data that we see is one sided at best. How the hell does one not think that its anything different, when all thats shown is negative things, one side of a story, and no solution?