Good arts for getting to your gun

[CB Jones]

When I am using a bat a radio or a mobile phone. Which I have done. Apparently guns are different.

They are.....and if you can't see the difference in guns compared to bats, radios, and phones ....this discussion is pointless. I never heard of anyone being killed with their own phone. I do know an officer that was shot in the face with his own gun though...and he can attest to the difference in them.

In CB,s class defensive class we can ask how many people just turned up to learn skills. Maybe do a refresher on their own time?

How many people just turned up? None.

Its a 20 week boot camp style Academy you go through when you are hired. People don't just turn up to try something new.

And then they have routine training throughout the year for the rest of their career plus they can request to be sent for additional training and certification.

You think that fight would come down to better gun knowledge?

The fight could easily come down to the better fighter being killed due to his poor gun handling tactics and/or philosophies.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You think that fight would come down to better gun knowledge?

I think gun knowledge and experience is important in the complete answer. A wrestler without gun experience is less qualified for this than one with gun experience. Likewise, a firearms instructor with no grappling experience is less qualified than one with grappling experience.

 

[oftheherd1]

When I am using a bat a radio or a mobile phone. Which I have done. Apparently guns are different.

This thread is about fighting to get a gun clear. Not just fighting. So i am working of a wrestle where the gun is the objective here. Either for him or you.

It is no good getting out and clear if I have dropped 20 elbows in to your head before you do.

You answer this too often. Deep sounding responses that simply don't make sense or don't apply.

In the first response, that isn't an answer to the question. The question by the OP was indeed how to get a gun out while fighting with an opponent. Based on one of your responses, I asked how often you wrestle with one hand. Your reply is anytime you have had something else in your hand. You are apparently one awesome fighter. You can wrestle without using any hands. I am in fear.

Your second response is that since the thread is about fighting to get a gun clear, it isn't just about fighting. So you get to go for your gun and your opponent must suddenly stop fighting while you do so? Sorry, I didn't realize there would be that rule change. I would agree that once one decides to go for a gun, the rules do suddenly change, but I wouldn't expect one's opponent to adhere to a rule requiring him to stop fighting and see what you intend to do when you do get the gun out.

Your third response is that an opponent need not even try to get a gun out and to bear because you MAY have delivered 20 elbows to the opponent's head. Really, is that the best answer you can come up with?

Imho, you do come up with good and useful answers sometimes, but too often answer as above. And I understand you apparently have had some experience. No doubt you can share experiences with us that would help us all. But the answer I am quoting and commenting on doesn't sound helpful to me.

 

[oftheherd1]

You think that fight would come down to better gun knowledge?

Perhaps you should go back and read his answer again. In fact, please do and tell me how what he said implies the outcome would depend solely on which fighter would have the better chance based on better gun knowledge.

If he didn't say or even imply that, your question is nonsensical or at attempt at misdirection, or both. Misdirection is another thing I believe you try and do a lot rather than admit you don't have a viable answer. Help us out.

 

[Buka]

Arguing for the sake of arguing, to me, is just meant to annoy. I not about to be drawn in on such a serious subject.

Leave the talk of firearms to those with firearm experience.

 

[drop bear]

They are.....and if you can't see the difference in guns compared to bats, radios, and phones ....this discussion is pointless. I never heard of anyone being killed with their own phone. I do know an officer that was shot in the face with his own gun though...and he can attest to the difference in them.



How many people just turned up? None.

Its a 20 week boot camp style Academy you go through when you are hired. People don't just turn up to try something new.

And then they have routine training throughout the year for the rest of their career plus they can request to be sent for additional training and certification.



The fight could easily come down to the better fighter being killed due to his poor gun handling tactics and/or philosophies.

OK. But so far your gun handling comes solely down to getting up from underneath someone and getting clear.

Which to be honest I am pretty good at. Without being a gun expert.

Or maybe seeing as I can pretty reliably fight a guy to stand up. I am a gun expert?

 

[drop bear]

Perhaps you should go back and read his answer again. In fact, please do and tell me how what he said implies the outcome would depend solely on which fighter would have the better chance based on better gun knowledge.

If he didn't say or even imply that, your question is nonsensical or at attempt at misdirection, or both. Misdirection is another thing I believe you try and do a lot rather than admit you don't have a viable answer. Help us out.

Because gun knowledge is the essential ingredient. I mean I can wrestle so I can pull a bat or a knife or a banana out of pretty much any part of my body. There are some pretty obvious wrestling positions where that would become available. There are positions where you wouldn't.

But apparently that is not available. Even though it obviously is available. This is because they are somehow going to take the gun off you. Which again is not done in some grappling mechanism. But in some sort of gun mechanism.

And all of this the only explanation is that if I am not a gun guy I wouldn't understand. And to understand. I wouldn't just get a plastic gun and see.

I have to follow the dogma of the gun authorities who only exist because people are forced to undergo their training.

I mean all I am being here is sceptical. If anyone wanted to argue anything other than what is basically a lineage argument I am happy to listen.

 

[drop bear]

I think gun knowledge and experience is important in the complete answer. A wrestler without gun experience is less qualified for this than one with gun experience. Likewise, a firearms instructor with no grappling experience is less qualified than one with grappling experience.

What I would like to see is anyone training this live so they know exactly what they can do and what they can't.

 

[CB Jones]

OK. But so far your gun handling comes solely down to getting up from underneath someone and getting clear.

Incorrect. My gun handling comes down to proper technique drawing fast and clean from a concealed carry position with a good strong grip allowing me to put multiple rounds on my target in vital areas (chest and head).

My philosophy is to create space that allows me to draw with good technique and be able to retain the possession of the firearm while minimizing malfunctions.

And it doesn't necessarily have to be underneath...who said we are only talking about being underneath? Actually underneath you are rapidly approaching...no other choice point. But I'm actually talking about all positions...a basic overall philosophy....not just a specific postion... standing and wrestling in a clinch, on your knees trying to defend from being put on your back etc... I'm fighting to disengage and create space to draw.

From my back, I'm probably trying one sweep and if it doesn't work it is now no other choice time and then you have to draw the weapon.....But the philosophy is to try and disengage because that allows a much safer draw.

Which to be honest I am pretty good at. Without being a gun expert

Again if you are good at getting up......why would you pull a gun and losing it to your attacker?

Or maybe seeing as I can pretty reliably fight a guy to stand up.

Ok again then why pull a gun while in position to possibly losing it to your attacker?

I am a gun expert?

No. In high school, I was pretty good at football...that did not make me a hockey expert.

 

[CB Jones]

I can pull a bat or a knife or a banana out of pretty much any part of my body

Keistering???

 

[CB Jones]

Because gun knowledge is the essential ingredient.

No its more about just minimizing the chance of a deadly mistake occurring.

I have to follow the dogma of the gun authorities

Not so much gun authorities....more like people that study and analyze actual real world fights involving guns and determining what tactics have a higher success rate and cases that were not successful what were the main problems that caused the failures.

 

[drop bear]

No its more about just minimizing the chance of a deadly mistake occurring.



Not so much gun authorities....more like people that study and analyze actual real world fights involving guns and determining what tactics have a higher success rate and cases that were not successful what were the main problems that caused the failures.

So they have watched a lot of fights?

There is a pretty big spectrum of how to take that?

How did you go wrestling guns free from them or pinning them so they couldn't?

 

[drop bear]

Keistering???

The hide out banana is the deadliest of weapons.

 

[drop bear]

Incorrect. My gun handling comes down to proper technique drawing fast and clean from a concealed carry position with a good strong grip allowing me to put multiple rounds on my target in vital areas (chest and head).

My philosophy is to create space that allows me to draw with good technique and be able to retain the possession of the firearm while minimizing malfunctions.

And it doesn't necessarily have to be underneath...who said we are only talking about being underneath? Actually underneath you are rapidly approaching...no other choice point. But I'm actually talking about all positions...a basic overall philosophy....not just a specific postion... standing and wrestling in a clinch, on your knees trying to defend from being put on your back etc... I'm fighting to disengage and create space to draw.

From my back, I'm probably trying one sweep and if it doesn't work it is now no other choice time and then you have to draw the weapon.....But the philosophy is to try and disengage because that allows a much safer draw.




Again if you are good at getting up......why would you pull a gun and losing it to your attacker?



Ok again then why pull a gun while in position to possibly losing it to your attacker?



No. In high school, I was pretty good at football...that did not make me a hockey expert.

If you beat a hockey expert?

 

[drop bear]

Ok again then why pull a gun while in position to possibly losing it to your attacker?

OK. Here is a progression. I have escaped a rear naked choke and worked my way in to half guard. At this point I am knackered and really concerned the guy is trying to kill me.

I control his left arm and that leaves my whole right side free. I can't see his right side.

Do I keep fighting to stand up or do I shoot the guy from there?

 

[CB Jones]

So they have watched a lot of fights?

Yes, every use of force action report and video (car and body cam) within the agency is forwarded to them. They also can interview the officer afterwards. Also, LEO instructors usually share their finding with other agencies...so you are getting the whole community of instructors opinions and analysis.

There is a pretty big spectrum of how to take that?

How did you go wrestling guns free from them or pinning them so they couldn't?

What?

OK. Here is a progression. I have escaped a rear naked choke and worked my way in to half guard. At this point I am knackered and really concerned the guy is trying to kill me.

I control his left arm and that leaves my whole right side free. I can't see his right side.

Do I keep fighting to stand up or do I shoot the guy from there?

As long as you can keep progressing....you do so. If you have gone as far as you believe you can then you are at the point of no other choice then its now time to take your chances. Again...its about minimizing access to your gun. The best place for retention is in the holster. The best place to draw and fire is outside your attacker's reach.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What I would like to see is anyone training this live so they know exactly what they can do and what they can't.

I've trained bits of it live. I know others who have, as well, and to a much greater extent. We used non-firing plastic replica weapons - would be better with simunitions or paintball guns. We had to work on the "laser gun" rule: if the barrel crossed your body when you weren't entirely in control of keeping the trigger from moving, you were probably shot.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, every use of force action report and video (car and body cam) within the agency is forwarded to them. They also can interview the officer afterwards. Also, LEO instructors usually share their finding with other agencies...so you are getting the whole community of instructors opinions and analysis.



What?



As long as you can keep progressing....you do so. If you have gone as far as you believe you can then you are at the point of no other choice then its now time to take your chances. Again...its about minimizing access to your gun. The best place for retention is in the holster. The best place to draw and fire is outside your attacker's reach.

So both of you standing he has less access to your gun than grappled up with a side pinned.

 

[drop bear]

I've trained bits of it live. I know others who have, as well, and to a much greater extent. We used non-firing plastic replica weapons - would be better with simunitions or paintball guns. We had to work on the "laser gun" rule: if the barrel crossed your body when you weren't entirely in control of keeping the trigger from moving, you were probably shot.

Which would be a lot better than working off actual fighting statistics.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, every use of force action report and video (car and body cam) within the agency is forwarded to them. They also can interview the officer afterwards. Also, LEO instructors usually share their finding with other agencies...so you are getting the whole community of instructors opinions and analysis.

You test this on your instructors though? I mean if we went solely off street fights we would get some pretty limited results.