CB Jones
Senior Master
incorrect
Good arts for getting to your gun
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Our police. Sorry typo.
CB Jones
Senior Master
Different things (Folk Style Wrestling, BJJ, Boxing, Kenpo, etc...) depending on what is available to them in their area. Again, It is advocated that you train some type of grappling so that you can get back to your feet and disengage. Just too many things can go wrong trying to draw while still engaged.
CCW class isn't a class about how to use a weapon. It's a class on the legalities of it. They do a basic test to make sure the person can operate the gun, but there's no assessment of proficiency. The "class" part is all lecture. But then, they don't call it a firearms tactics course. People (at least those I've spoken with) don't go in expecting to be taught how to use their gun, nor how to deploy it in dangerous circumstances. It's a CYA course, at best. It does what it was purpose-built to do, and not much else.
It would be like if folks going to a "First Aid" course knew that all it was supposed to do was teach them what their legal responsibilities and liabilities were. It'd be a useful course, but not what you and I would think a First Aid course should be.
And yeah, so no requirement to even get taught half *** tactics before getting the right to carry. I don't see any real wisdom in that.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Two reasons.
I would want to take the first opportunity to shift the odds of a fight in my favor as I would be concerned I might not get another one.
And if I can draw a gun and prevent you from stopping me. I am ultimately protecting that gun. To draw it out I have to keep it clear from you. So even if I don't draw the gun. Positioning so I can is pretty much always going to be in my favor.
This is still just grappling but with a change of priorities.
CB Jones
Senior Master
Fair enough. But are you justified at that point in using lethal force? And is it worth the risk of introducing a lethal weapon into the fight?
Thats a big if. If you fail and I end up with it ....you are dead.
Yet the most secure and easiest place to retain and protect it is inside the holster.
But that is a game with zero room for error. You make a mistake....you die.
Why not use those grappling skills to maintain control and work back up to your feet and draw the gun once you can be sure I can't get my hands on it.
Once you introduce a gun into the fight, your options become extremely limited and while engaged in grappling you run the risk of losing it no matter what your skill is.
Basic rule is you never want your gun inside the reach of the bad guy.
In that second paragraph, you're saying the same thing others are, DB. They didn't say they wouldn't protect it - just that they wouldn't draw if there's not a safe enough space to do so. I agree that working toward drawing is about 90% the same as just keeping them from the gun (the other 10% is you trying to get your arm free to get to the gun).
If I have a gun on my hip and am grappling, I'm certainly going to have a partial focus of retention (complete focus if they are actively going for it).
lklawson
Grandmaster
lklawson
Grandmaster
I don't remember suggesting anything one way or another in my reply to you. To be blunt I am questioning your qualifications to be able to offer opinions on the martial application of firearms use. I still haven't seen any real description of why your opinion on fighting with a firearm is based on anything other than speculation.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
That's nice. But you specifically wrote, "Training that people attend because they have to tends to be different to training people do because they actually want to aquire a skill." But the fact is, in the firearms world once you get past the basics most of the classes tend to be the same. Take a "combat carbine" class. I've spoken with instructors who tell me that they get military and LEO guys who are forced to go and they have a different attitude than non-LEO civilians who pony up their own money. The class is the same but the attitudes are often different.
Heck, most of the folks teaching those "combat carbine" classes are either former military or LEO (both active and retired).
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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lklawson
Grandmaster
I'm still looking for any indication that you have any real knowledge of what "industry training" in the firearms world looks like. I'm beginning to doubt that you do.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Depends on the course. Many of them do. But there is, of course, a limit to how much can be taught in a class.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
No. It's like saying that a First Aid class doesn't teach how to apply a chest seal for a sucking chest wound and doesn't have a lot of trauma care. Well duh. It's a First Aid class not an EMT training program.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Depends on the individual and the Department standards (and how much money they have to spend). I know cops that are highly skilled fighters and apply the same rigor to firearms as to unarmed fighting. I know some cops who only shoot the requal when required and worry about passing.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Depends on the state. On top of the required class/lecture time, Ohio has a 2 hour "on the range" training requirement with a proficiency test written into the law itself. Texas has a proficiency test which requires minimum scores at 3 different distances.
Other states have differing requirements.
Lawriter - ORC - 2923.125 Application and licensing process.
http://www.stateoftexaschl.com/chl-shooting-test/
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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lklawson
Grandmaster
Inexperience and lack of training allows people to form flawed opinions and believe they are both accurate and informed.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Agreed. In my research, the state-mandated courses are often just a few hours.
SC has a similar approach to TX. To give some personal experience from it, I scored 100% on it with a gun I'd never fired before. I was probably a well-above-average shooter at the time, but I would've preferred a test that wasn't so easy. For liability reasons, the test wasn't from the draw - gun was at presentation, all strong-side, etc. It was essentially really easy target shooting. I do much more difficult shooting at a standard firing range.
2 hours on the range is basically nothing. I would assume the point of that was to make sure folks know how to handle their firearm (basic safety lecture). I know there are logistical and political reasons the tests and classes are what they are, but I think they are mere CYA for the state and the CWP holder.
