Good arts for getting to your gun

[CB Jones]

So both of you standing he has less access to your gun than grappled up with a side pinned.

Yes

Standing allows you to move and keep the spacing you need to put shots on him/her also it allows you to move and keep the gun away. The spacing also gives you time and room to fix any grip issues that might have occurred during drawing or clear any malfunctions.

Also, most people are more hesitant to charge a gun pointed at them from a distance outside their reach. Creating space and drawing often times causes the attacker to stop in and of itself. Where as, when a gun is drawn from within reach, most times the attacker will instantly focus on it and try to take it away.

Drawing while grappling does not give much room for error....and when a gun is introduced into the fight, errors are deadly for you.

You test this on your instructors though? I mean if we went solely off street fights we would get some pretty limited results.

That's part of what they do. They analyze what has happened in fights combined with trends (with the rise of mma more people learning to grapple) then go to the mats and work on what tactics and philosophies that give best results. Figure out best practices then provide training to the officers in those best practices.

Nothing is absolute....just trying to figure out what tactics and philosophy gives you the best chance of survival.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which would be a lot better than working off actual fighting statistics.

I'm not sure I follow this comment, DB.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure I follow this comment, DB.

Most people can't fight.

If I watch fifty people close their eyes and swing wildly at each other. The method I come up with may work. But you could probably do better if you study guys who can fight.

I mean again police are not adopting BJJ concepts because of street fights. They are not even adopting those methods because of how much police or gun knowledge your average BJJ instructor has.

It is principally because if you wrestle a Bjj Instructor he ties you in knots. Then after a while you are tying someone else in knots.

And all of this comes down to my theory of the importance of cracking heads. And where the focus of any training that is used for a practical purpose should be aimed.

 

[drop bear]

Yes

Standing allows you to move and keep the spacing you need to put shots on him/her also it allows you to move and keep the gun away. The spacing also gives you time and room to fix any grip issues that might have occurred during drawing or clear any malfunctions.

Also, most people are more hesitant to charge a gun pointed at them from a distance outside their reach. Creating space and drawing often times causes the attacker to stop in and of itself. Where as, when a gun is drawn from within reach, most times the attacker will instantly focus on it and try to take it away.

Drawing while grappling does not give much room for error....and when a gun is introduced into the fight, errors are deadly for you.




That's part of what they do. They analyze what has happened in fights combined with trends (with the rise of mma more people learning to grapple) then go to the mats and work on what tactics and philosophies that give best results. Figure out best practices then provide training to the officers in those best practices.

Nothing is absolute....just trying to figure out what tactics and philosophy gives you the best chance of survival.

But in the process of getting back up you do run the risk of being shot, stabbed punched kicked and taken back down to basically wind up in a neutral position.

All of this is working on the theory that if you get up and run backwards you will outdistance him getting up and running forwards.

I am not advocating drawing a gun from a fifty/fifty.

 

[CB Jones]

But in the process of getting back up you do run the risk of being shot, stabbed punched kicked and taken back down to basically wind up in a neutral position.

Same risks are there while trying to draw while wrestling. Except while wrestling you also add the risks of losing your gun to the bad guy, an increased risk of AD wounding yourself, a caused malfunction, or the weapon getting entangled in your draw.

All of this is working on the theory that if you get up and run backwards you will outdistance him getting up and running forwards.

Its not about outdistancing...its about giving yourself the space to draw properly and reducing the problems that can occur during the draw. Also, if you experience a malfunction you maybe able to clear it.

I am not advocating drawing a gun from a fifty/fifty.

Ok but even from a dominant position you still are taking a risk in attempting to draw while engaged. Trying to draw while wrestling makes it very easy for problems such as the gun getting entangled in clothing, wrong or weak grip, AD while drawing, loosing retention of gun, caused malfunctions, and/or a loss of position that gives the other guy access to the gun.

 

[drop bear]

Ok but even from a dominant position you still are taking a risk in attempting to draw while engaged. Trying to draw while wrestling makes it very easy for problems such as the gun getting entangled in clothing, wrong or weak grip, AD while drawing, loosing retention of gun, caused malfunctions, and/or a loss of position that gives the other guy access to the gun.

As opposed to all the luxury of time and space that you have while standing up running backwards away from someone who is up and coming for you at zero range?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=865151043663956

If he can slip that arm to the other side of his head or pin it with his left. He is going to have an easy 10 seconds or so to do whatever he wants there.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. This is pretty cool.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Most people can't fight.

If I watch fifty people close their eyes and swing wildly at each other. The method I come up with may work. But you could probably do better if you study guys who can fight.

I mean again police are not adopting BJJ concepts because of street fights. They are not even adopting those methods because of how much police or gun knowledge your average BJJ instructor has.

It is principally because if you wrestle a Bjj Instructor he ties you in knots. Then after a while you are tying someone else in knots.

And all of this comes down to my theory of the importance of cracking heads. And where the focus of any training that is used for a practical purpose should be aimed.

All that is true. But if a BJJ guy has little experience with firearms, I want a different BJJ guy for this topic. Some of your own posts here ignore some of the dangers of a firearm being out and available to be wrestled over. There's a lot I'd look at you as a good source for. Firearms retention and advice when to draw and when to leave it holstered are not among them.

 

[CB Jones]

As opposed to all the luxury of time and space that you have while standing up running backwards away from someone who is up and coming for you at zero range?

Yes. On your feet with space you have time to use both hands to access your gun and mechanically its a easier draw from your feet. You need roughly 1 second and about 2-3 feet separation to draw and get shots on target. Also if you get a failure to fire you might have a chance to tap, rack, and fire

If he can slip that arm to the other side of his head or pin it with his left. He is going to have an easy 10 seconds or so to do whatever he wants there.

And if he loses control of the arm as he is drawing the guy can posture up and is now on top wrestling for you gun with more leverage on it....which is one of the worst positions to be in (on the bottom fighting for retention of a drawn weapon). You now are at great risk of being gut shot.

Also, most people don't walk around in a police rig and side holster. The police gun rig is made where it holds the gun out away from your body which makes it way easier to draw also. Most people are going to be working with a IWB underneath their shirt making it much more harder to access draw while wrestling.

Like this:

Instead of drawing....if he can slip that arm to the other side of his head or pin it with his left. He is going to have an easy 10 seconds or so to do whatever he wants....The why not continue to progress until you have control or can break away???

 

[oftheherd1]

Because gun knowledge is the essential ingredient. I mean I can wrestle so I can pull a bat or a knife or a banana out of pretty much any part of my body. There are some pretty obvious wrestling positions where that would become available. There are positions where you wouldn't.

But apparently that is not available. Even though it obviously is available. This is because they are somehow going to take the gun off you. Which again is not done in some grappling mechanism. But in some sort of gun mechanism.

And all of this the only explanation is that if I am not a gun guy I wouldn't understand. And to understand. I wouldn't just get a plastic gun and see.

I have to follow the dogma of the gun authorities who only exist because people are forced to undergo their training.

I mean all I am being here is sceptical. If anyone wanted to argue anything other than what is basically a lineage argument I am happy to listen.

???

 

[drop bear]

.if he can slip that arm to the other side of his head or pin it with his left. He is going to have an easy 10 seconds or so to do whatever he wants....The why not continue to progress until you have control or can break away???

Because he can still reverse that position. It is a fight. I assume he is not just letting me up and letting me get clear. If I start getting hit from that position and I am in real trouble. If I get dragged back down I am in trouble. And what I get to when I stand up is a fifty/fifty.

We are both standing and still in grappling range. So I still have that risk he can take the gun off me.

An if i get clipped or get pushed back down that would also be a much more desperate position to try for a gun.

Where do you get these 2 feet of distance and both hands free from?

 

[lklawson]

OK. But so far your gun handling comes solely down to getting up from underneath someone and getting clear.

Which to be honest I am pretty good at. Without being a gun expert.

Or maybe seeing as I can pretty reliably fight a guy to stand up. I am a gun expert?

Nope.

 

[lklawson]

Because gun knowledge is the essential ingredient. I mean I can wrestle so I can pull a bat or a knife or a banana out of pretty much any part of my body. There are some pretty obvious wrestling positions where that would become available. There are positions where you wouldn't.

But apparently that is not available. Even though it obviously is available. This is because they are somehow going to take the gun off you. Which again is not done in some grappling mechanism. But in some sort of gun mechanism.

And all of this the only explanation is that if I am not a gun guy I wouldn't understand. And to understand. I wouldn't just get a plastic gun and see.

I have to follow the dogma of the gun authorities who only exist because people are forced to undergo their training.

This is some of the most foolish stuff I've seen.

I mean all I am being here is sceptical.

No. You're being argumentative and, on top of that, arguing from a place of inexperience. Look, there is a place for "gun grappling." It is "a thing." But it's not a thing that you should try to figure out on your own or expect that because you're an expert at general grappling that you automatically have expertise at "gun grappling" because... you don't. You won't know when you are making newbie mistakes because it "seems obvious" to you or when you're doing things which will work out bad, put you at unnecessary risk, or otherwise screwing up.

If anyone wanted to argue anything other than what is basically a lineage argument I am happy to listen.

Horsefeathers. It's not about "lineage" it's about you talking out of your butt because you don't have any experience or training. I would never ever send anyone to you to learn firearms retention, close range handgun deployment, or close range firearms application. Why? Because you don't have any experience in any of that, despite your implications that "it's all just grappling." Mule muffins.

 

[lklawson]

What I would like to see is anyone training this live so they know exactly what they can do and what they can't.

Plenty of people do it. One of the most "famous" is Mike Seeklander.

New Home Page | American Warrior Society

 

[lklawson]

Most people can't fight.

If I watch fifty people close their eyes and swing wildly at each other. The method I come up with may work. But you could probably do better if you study guys who can fight.

I mean again police are not adopting BJJ concepts because of street fights. They are not even adopting those methods because of how much police or gun knowledge your average BJJ instructor has.

It is principally because if you wrestle a Bjj Instructor he ties you in knots. Then after a while you are tying someone else in knots.

No. There are several reasons, none of which are "bjj instructor ties you in knots" and some are actually related to "street fights." The goal of cops when "fighting" is different from the goal or non-LEO civilian self defense.

And all of this comes down to my theory of the importance of cracking heads. And where the focus of any training that is used for a practical purpose should be aimed.

Your theory doesn't comport with any of the stuff I've learned from my LEO friends. Because you've written several things in this thread which shows your lack of basic understanding on the basic concepts and principles of modern "gun fighting," and because your "theory" directly disagrees with what my cop pals tell me, I reject your "theory" and encourage you to do so as well.

 

[drop bear]

No. There are several reasons, none of which are "bjj instructor ties you in knots" and some are actually related to "street fights." The goal of cops when "fighting" is different from the goal or non-LEO

Yet police train bjj and bjj conepts. Even though they don't relate to police work?

What you are describing is a dogma principle.

 

[drop bear]

No. There are several reasons, none of which are "bjj instructor ties you in knots" and some are actually related to "street fights." The goal of cops when "fighting" is different from the goal or non-LEO

Yet police train bjj and bjj conepts. Even though they don't relate to police work?

What you are describing is a dogma principle.

Your theory doesn't comport with any of the stuff I've learned from my LEO friends. Because you've written several things in this thread which shows your lack of basic understanding on the basic concepts and principles of modern "gun fighting," and because your "theory" directly disagrees with what my cop pals tell me, I reject your "theory" and encourage you to do so as well.

Well my cop friends agree with me. So we are even on that.

I mean come on seriously? Is that what you are adding to this discussion.

There is a vested intrest in people who teach industry training to have the authority of expertise. If they are the experts then their method is the best acording to the experts who is of course them. Now give me more money.

They are not competing in any sort of free market and their results are not judged by effectiveness.

Now this does not mean they are automatically bad. But it does not mean they are automatically good either.

Some police can fight, some cant and there is a whole spectum of competency to complete idiocy depending on how many police you interact with.

Of course if you do BJJ for some reason you wind up interacting with a lot of police. (Don't know why it is completely different to police work and industry training is doing such a grand job)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course if you do BJJ for some reason you wind up interacting with a lot of police. (Don't know why it is completely different to police work and industry training is doing such a grand job)

My experience is that there are a lot of LEO in MA, overall. The more popular arts seem to draw more of them by proportion (meaning they are a higher % of the population). If a cop trains one and finds it useful, others tend to show up at that school over time. BJJ seems particularly well-suited to cuffing and providing a foundation for firearm retention. Judo has some good fit for LEO in an overlapping way. Any with good locking and arm control (including some of the non-sport standing grappling arts) also seem to serve well.

 

[drop bear]

My experience is that there are a lot of LEO in MA, overall. The more popular arts seem to draw more of them by proportion (meaning they are a higher % of the population). If a cop trains one and finds it useful, others tend to show up at that school over time. BJJ seems particularly well-suited to cuffing and providing a foundation for firearm retention. Judo has some good fit for LEO in an overlapping way. Any with good locking and arm control (including some of the non-sport standing grappling arts) also seem to serve well.

Correct.

But none of those arts are training in police work. Which is why the distinction made as that general statement is kind of silly. BJJ, Judo and MMA all have different aims but you can't discount the advantages they bring as well.

Again I am not as keen an advocate of specific only training. and becoming less so the more i look into it.


By the way I do think if you are going to use a gun you should study guns. Just be aware of the baggage behind a lot of the instruction.

Hell I remember back in the old days good karate guys were claiming they could stop take downs with solid front sances.

They just didn't know otherewise.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Correct.

But none of those arts are training in police work. Which is why the distinction made as that general statement is kind of silly. BJJ, Judo and MMA all have different aims but you can't discount the advantages they bring as well.

Again I am not as keen an advocate of specific only training. and becoming less so the more i look into it.


By the way I do think if you are going to use a gun you should study guns. Just be aware of the baggage behind a lot of the instruction.

Hell I remember back in the old days good karate guys were claiming they could stop take downs with solid front sances.

They just didn't know otherewise.

Some are, actually - it depends upon the instructor. My first NGA instructor was a DT (defensive tactics - LEO hand-to-hand) instructor and former cop. When he had a cop in his class, he taught cuffing (those of us with interest got to learn some of it if we wanted to). And instructors can easily emphasize the points that make the necessary control more accessible. The difference when comparing to guns is simply that if someone isn't familiar with guns (how they are carried, the problems with drawing from different carry positions and cover garments), they tend to give over-simplified answers. I've seen instructors use a holster on top of their gi to demonstrate how easily they can draw from some positions, but I could see the problem they'd have if they were wearing a concealing garment (the issue for nearly all but uniformed cops). I also saw some making mistakes of letting the muzzle cross their body (a safety error, especially under those conditions). The instructor could work past these if they thought about it, but someone who's not familiar with guns and their carry/use is unlikely to think about them well. That's why a BJJ guy with some solid gun experience (better yet, with some good defensive gun training) is far better equipped for this than a BJJ guy without that experience. They'll use the same foundation of techniques, but will have a different understanding of the risk/reward measurements, etc.