God

[Dennis_Mahon]

I read Hume, Nietzsche, Locke, Hobbes, everything that I could get my hands on, but none of it helped.

Have you read G. K. Chesterton? C. S. Lewis? Peter Kreeft?

 

[ABN]

I recommend:

C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity?"

G. K. Chesterton's "The Everlasting Man"

and "Myth, Allegory, and Gospel an Iterpretation of Tolkein, Lewis, Chesterton, and Williamson"

by Fuller, Kilby,Kirk, Montgomery, and Walsh

Good luck on your journey. I can tell you from personal experience that existentialism is a dead end.

"An atheist is someone with no invisible means of support"
-Fulton J. Sheen

 

[Cruentus]

I second that recomendation on Peter Kreeft and C.S. Lewis.

 

[someguy]

Cognito ergo sum(no clue how to spell it) But anyways I think therefore I am. So from this base comes other ideas but surely this is true or it is unimportant to do anything because I do not truely exist and my thoughts don't exist.
From there every thing gets weaker I suppose
Thus there needs to be some thing to have created me as there needs to be something before the beginning or else there should be nothing at all.
That is all I can say is real. There is me as I know that I think. There is GOD as I know that I exist so something else must exist.
As for is reality real. I don't know but I'm here so I may as well live in it.
I also wish you luck with your journey to find what you may someday find. I doubt this will help anythough. It's hard for me to convey this sort of thing to others. I can at best use my limited knowledge to point you in a direction that may help. MAybe some body here will explain it bettre than me.

 

[WillFightForBeer]

By all means, I can read books all day long on the topic, but get nowhere anytime soon. My belief that there is an absence of a God is quite firm, although I would like to think that what we do during our lifetime matters. In the end, my belief as it is now is something simillar to:

We are born, there is a period of conciousness, and then we die. Everything in between birth and death is temporary, the only thing that lasts forever, in fact, is death. Sure, it's not a happy thought, and sure, I wish it would change, but so far I doubt that it will. Part of me still believes that what we accomplish in life matters, although it is a very small part.

 

[someguy]

If there is no god than there is no punishment for beliving in god. There is only the blessing of being able to belive. I think it was Epicurus who said that tif there were no God then it would be nessisary for man to make one.
You should ty reading some of Epicurus(or how ever his name is spelled) It may give you something. It may not.
Some how I doubt I will help much but eh maybe.

 

[Dennis_Mahon]

I think it was Epicurus who said that tif there were no God then it would be nessisary for man to make one.

Actually, it was Voltaire. Had a decidedly dismal outlook on human behavior.

 

[WillFightForBeer]

Why is that? What would possibly make an outlook on human behavior "dismal". Think about it, it would only be dismal in the eye of the beholder, and even then, the matter is only subject to personal opinion if it is decidedly untrue. So are you saying that what he said is not true?

 

[someguy]

Oops quite right. It was Voltaire. Grr this will teach me to have a philosophy class at the same time as when I go over the philosophs in the enlightenment. Oh well epicuris is still an intresting person who brings up many good points.

 

[drunken mistress]

I´m a Pagan and happy to worship anyone and everyone´s gods and goddesses. I am particularly fond of the Greek and Roman ones. I often say I´m a polytheist which freaks people out when I am filling in forms. My son takes after me naturally. When he was six he knelt down spontaneously and prayed to an image of Hercules in Alicante Museum. He asked for strength and he certainly got it as he really loves the sparring side of karate!

 

[Dennis_Mahon]

Why is that? What would possibly make an outlook on human behavior "dismal".

Perhaps because his statement indicates that he believed humanity is so incapable of policing itself, it needs a (real of imagined) Supreme Being to threaten it into proper behavior.

Think about it, it would only be dismal in the eye of the beholder,

Yes, and those who hold a similar opinion.
and even then, the matter is only subject to personal opinion if it is decidedly untrue.

Why? The validity of a statement is not determined by an individual's opinion of it, and an individual can hold an opinion regardless of the validity of the facts. The two do not necessarily have to co-incide.

So are you saying that what he said is not true?

To the contrary, I find a great deal of truth in it. That does not change my opinion that it is a rather dismal truth.

I take it that the discussion about the existence of God was Voltaire's. Have you ever read any of the authors I mentioned?

 

[WillFightForBeer]

No, I have not yet had a chance to look into the afformentioned authors. I agree though, in a Godless society, everything would go straight to hell. It is necessary for us to create a God, like we already have.

 

[Dennis_Mahon]

No, I have not yet had a chance to look into the afformentioned authors. I agree though, in a Godless society, everything would go straight to hell. It is necessary for us to create a God, like we already have.

Or, to recognize that God exists, and will hold us accountable for our actions. :uhyeah:

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Dennis:

".......Or, to recognize that God exists, and will hold us accountable for our actions......."

Raises an interesting question. Is it a necessary function of God that we be held accountable for what we do? I am of two lines of thought as I ask this.

1.) Lincoln suggested that the true measure of a mans' character was to observe what that person would do if they could do anything in the World they wanted to--- and wouldn't get caught. That said, need we have a God who serves the purpose of a Cosmic Criminal system? Must we have the threat of punishment or the promise of reward in order to come out of the best part of ourselves. If the answer is "yes" than I wonder if our choices are truely free- or how we might act if we knew that God would have an occasional laspse and let us off for no good reason. If the answer is "no" then how is it that people are so easily seduced by that which is easier, faster and more seductive?

2.) I am wondering how it is that "God's" assessments, judgements and mandates always seem to approximate those of whoever is dominant in the religious experience at any given time. During the 17th century 10-s of thousands were accused of witchcraft and put to death in the name of God. On the other side of the globe witchcraft and Shamanisn and Animism are used as ways to more closely approximate God. It seems to me that the "will" of God is more often invoked as a way of one segment of the population having greater bragging rights on being "right" than on improving the Human condition. But suppose for a minute that the sole Purpose for a Human Being to be alive would be to come out of the best part of himself as he produces the best growth and change for himself and his community. Were that true, need a person necessarily invoke a Deity to do this? Couldn't a person do what best for himself and his community because its the right thing to do? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Dennis_Mahon]

1.) Lincoln suggested that the true measure of a mans' character was to observe what that person would do if they could do anything in the World they wanted to--- and wouldn't get caught. That said, need we have a God who serves the purpose of a Cosmic Criminal system? Must we have the threat of punishment or the promise of reward in order to come out of the best part of ourselves. If the answer is "yes" than I wonder if our choices are truely free- or how we might act if we knew that God would have an occasional laspse and let us off for no good reason. If the answer is "no" then how is it that people are so easily seduced by that which is easier, faster and more seductive?

I fail to see how a "Yes" answer affects free will at all; what God does is ensure that you face the consequences of your actions, not make the decisions for you. If the answer is "No", then what is point of calling something right or wrong? If a omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly just God doesn't hold Man accountable, a) who will, and b) by what right do they do so?

2.) I am wondering how it is that "God's" assessments, judgements and mandates always seem to approximate those of whoever is dominant in the religious experience at any given time.

Well, that presumes that those in the "dominant religious experience at any giventime" are actually relating God's assessments, judgements, and mandates. Just because someone claims to be speaking in the name of God, doesn't necessarily mean that they do so. It also doesn't mean that they don't.

During the 17th century 10-s of thousands were accused of witchcraft and put to death in the name of God. On the other side of the globe witchcraft and Shamanisn and Animism are used as ways to more closely approximate God. It seems to me that the "will" of God is more often invoked as a way of one segment of the population having greater bragging rights on being "right" than on improving the Human condition.

That presumes that the claims of Animism and Shamanism are equally as valid as those of Christianity. Consider a counter-example: in one part of the world, women are considered property of her husband, and are forced to undergo the bloddy and painfull practice of female circumcision. On the other, the practice is elevated to the status of a Sacrament, ensuring that men cannot cast their women aside when it suits them. Using the premise that all religious systems are equally valid, both acts must be morally eqivalent.

But suppose for a minute that the sole Purpose for a Human Being to be alive would be to come out of the best part of himself as he produces the best growth and change for himself and his community. Were that true, need a person necessarily invoke a Deity to do this? Couldn't a person do what best for himself and his community because its the right thing to do?

But, absent a omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly just God, how do you know that any given act is right or wrong? For that matter, why would "right" or "wrong" matter? All actions would be morally equivallent, be they beatifically charitable or violently selfish.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Dennis:

"......But, absent a omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly just God, how do you know that any given act is right or wrong? For that matter, why would "right" or "wrong" matter? All actions would be morally equivallent, be they beatifically charitable or violently selfish......"

To the best of my ability it seems that only Man is capable of dividing everything into Right or Wrong; Good or Bad. To the best of my ability only Man would WANT to divide everything up into Right or Wrong; Good or Bad. Only Man would be so inadequate as to believe only something outside of himself might set things in order. Certainly it is too much to believe that puny Man could create his own Heaven--- or Hell-- simply through his own good offices, right? Imagine if Man had no "sin", God, or judgement to excuse the fact that when push comes to shove people are just too easily seduced from doing the Right thing--- without a club hanging over their head. Is there some particular reason that you need to KNOW that something is "good" or "bad". Do you, yourself have no internal assessment to let you know when you are working in the best interests of yourself and your community? Whatismore, you deny the probability of each and every act, malevolent or benificent, carrying with it an intrinsic value with which we may or may not agree emotionally. In this way, independent of the nature of God, behaviors have a way of balancing to the Middle Way. Thought I may not like a particular consequence of of my actions, or may enjoy an inflated view of myself because of a consequence, in both cases I am inaccurate in my assessment. Either way I don't need a "God" to tell me when I am being hurtful, venal, or selfish. Nor do I need a God to guarentee that I will be punished or rewarded. God is that He is and no amount of self-serving or self-agrandizing behavior will turn Him to toiling for our individual agendas. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Gary Crawford]

I absolutly beleive in God,as far as religion goes,I think religion is a good thing for those who need structor in their lives and works well for many.As for me,since all religions have one thing in common,they all believe they are the only ones that are right and all others are wrong,I have no need for religion.

 

[Dennis_Mahon]

To the best of my ability it seems that only Man is capable of dividing everything into Right or Wrong; Good or Bad. To the best of my ability only Man would WANT to divide everything up into Right or Wrong; Good or Bad.

Agreed- it's called morality.

Man would be so inadequate as to believe only something outside of himself might set things in order. Certainly it is too much to believe that puny Man could create his own Heaven--- or Hell-- simply through his own good offices, right?

Inadequatte? I say insightfull. And we are the authors of our own Hells.

Imagine if Man had no "sin", God, or judgement to excuse the fact that when push comes to shove people are just too easily seduced from doing the Right thing--- without a club hanging over their head.

Without God, we would not recognize what is Right or Wrong.

Is there some particular reason that you need to KNOW that something is "good" or "bad".

So that you do that which is "good", and avoid that which is "bad".

Do you, yourself have no internal assessment to let you know when you are working in the best interests of yourself and your community?

You mean, do I have such a process of determining right from wrong apart from that which God has defined right and wrong? No, I don't. No one does.

Whatismore, you deny the probability of each and every act, malevolent or benificent, carrying with it an intrinsic value with which we may or may not agree emotionally.

Emotionally? What do emotions have to do with the determination of right and wrong? Right and wrong are determined through logic, through inductive and deductive reason. It feels good to shoot up with heroin- that doesn't make it "right".

In this way, independent of the nature of God, behaviors have a way of balancing to the Middle Way.

Ok, let's test your theory:
Thesis: Murder is wrong.
Antithesis: Murder is not wrong.

What, exactly, is your synthesis, or "Middle Way", in this situation?

Either way I don't need a "God" to tell me when I am being hurtful, venal, or selfish.

So you've never been hurtful, venal, or selfish?

Nor do I need a God to guarentee that I will be punished or rewarded.

Really? Then prove it- what punishment has the murderer of Joan Bennet Ramsey suffered?

God is that He is and no amount of self-serving or self-agrandizing behavior will turn Him to toiling for our individual agendas

Right- stating that God is the ultimate arbiter of what is Just is making Him "toil(sic) for our individual agendas". What exactly do you think you do to Him whaen you declare that Right and Wrong are what you declare them to be?

I absolutly beleive in God,as far as religion goes,I think religion is a good thing for those who need structor in their lives and works well for many.As for me,since all religions have one thing in common,they all believe they are the only ones that are right and all others are wrong,I have no need for religion.

Even if all religions declare that they are the only one that are right, and all others are wrong (a gross oversimplification of all religions if ever there was one), it doesn't follow that all are equal. Just because determining whether their individual claims are true or not takes effort is not an excuse for not taking that effort.

 

[Gary Crawford]

There are two types of people,those who divide people into two groups,and those who don't!

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Dennis:

You are, perhaps your own best audience, which leaves me wondering why you would elect to discuss matters when it is apparent you have no intention of considering any possibility other than your own. However you have confused a number of points and perhaps you might consider some alternate truths.

"......Without God, we would not recognize what is Right or Wrong....."

This is not supported by any evidence I know of. The constructs known to our species as "right" and "wrong" are wholly of our own fabrication and vary considerably depending on culture, time, stress, intellect and so forth. If God plays any role whatsoever it is to allow the existence of this Universe while we play our silly games of "white and black". Furthermore it is of no sense to say that needing to know what is "good" and what is "bad" animates that a person will do what is "good" and avoid what is "bad" as the constructs are under constant revision as well as subject to interpretation from more than one point of human judgement. In this way Hitler is seen as a demi-god by some people and satanic by others. And only you own personal preference disposes you towards one pole or the other. For all you know Stalin may have represented the way God idealizes the Universe to be and Jesus was an unforgivable anomaly.

"......You mean, do I have such a process of determining right from wrong apart from that which God has defined right and wrong? No, I don't. No one does....."

You may well be right about yourself, though I doubt it. I think, perhaps you have just gotten lazy and foisted the responsibility about making enlightened decisions off on the first Cosmic excuse to come along. Mother Theresa did not need the Catholic Church to know the right thing to do, nor did Gandhi or dozens of others who worked to invoke quality for their species independent of the judgements of people around them. Nor does the focus of productive behaviors need be human as there are countless selfless acts done on the behalf of endangered species around the world. And where is God in all of this. Allowing the Universe to exist so that we can play out all our dramas until we learn to transcend that which we are and more closely approximate Him.

Finally......

"........ Right and wrong are determined through logic, through inductive and
deductive reason. It feels good to shoot up with heroin- that doesn't make it "right"......."

You couldn't be more wrong. "Right" and "wrong" have little or nothing to do with logic, though we humans flatter ourselves that such decisions are so coldly logical. I am sure that it DOES feel good to shoot up with heroin. I would also bet that the addict believes that his self-abusive action is as justified as the flagellant believes his self-abusive behavior is to HIM. Maybe, YOU think the addicts behavior is "wrong" but then, the addict may think that your slavish adherence to an extraordinary ridgid value system is also "bad". It hard to know what your background is but I would hazard a guess that your conclusions have never come close to the Criminal Justice System, Family Court, a bar during happy hour or the American Dating scene. Such environments do things to the concepts of "Right" and "wrong" that would make a Klein Bottle jealous!

And what is God doing while all this is going on? Allowing the Universe to exist while we entertain ourselves with dramas such as this.

BTW: Re: Your test of my thesis is flawed. To more correctly state my position you could say:

Murder is not right.

Murder is not wrong.

Murder occurs in this experience and carries with it the natural consequences of its occurance whether I have knowledge of the nature and instance of those consequences or not.

Best Wishes,

Bruce