GM JI Han Jae

[iron_ox]

There was much made of this type of quote, this is from The Courier. Friday, April 19, 1991 Volume 24, No. 20, and this is only part of the quote - referring to kicking: "Certain hapkido techniques differ greatly from other types of fighting arts. For example, most arts teach kicks that lean into the strike. However, Ji instructs his students to lean away from the kick. Ji is credited with the creation of spin kicks. Only spin kicks off the right foot are used because Ji believes power comes from moving in a clockwise motion. Reference is given to a passage in the Bible, in which Joshua brought down the walls of Jericho by walking clockwise around the city."

I have seen similar quotes often, but nothing is referred to here yet.

 

[mastercole]

Can any Sin Moo people elaborate on this? I am not sure at this point which kicks we should actually attribute as invented, learned, similar, identical.

Maybe it's like saying one invented Kuhapdo, but yet they use a Katana and it looks very Samurai. Is that what you are talking about?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Maybe it's like saying one invented Kuhapdo, but yet they use a Katana and it looks very Samurai. Is that what you are talking about?

Kuhapdo = Korean iaido, and is in fact the Korean pronunciation of iaido's kanji. The same way that 'kumdo' is the Korean pronunciation of kendo's kanji. Haven't a clue as to who is credited with putting kuhapdo together though.

 

[zDom]

Originally Posted by puunui
If you wish to learn about GM Ji's special kicks, then my suggestion is to seek him out personally and go learn them from him directly.


"I think that is excellent advise, so much so that I will do it myself. Since I have a sort of renewed interest in Hapkido, I should seek out the best in world and in my travels all over the world I have always heard when it comes to Hapkido that GM Ji is among the best teachers. Anyone have a differing opinion about GM Ji?"

I am a man of modest income. So when I look for a burger, I look for the best burger around in town. Maybe if I was a rich man I might go on a quest to find the World's Best Burger.

I found a great hapkido instructor teaching a great hapkido curriculum in the immediate area and consider myself fortunate to have been afforded the opportunity to train regularly in Moo Sul Kwan hapkido. But if my instructor died and I was rich and able to fly around the globe and train with the best? Yep, I would probably look into seeing if I could study with Ji Han Jae.

Does not appear that way to me. I see kicking skills in Sin Moo Hapkido that are not found in Taekwondo or Taekkyon. So I'll go with the idea that GM Ji invented them.

I see some kicks I haven't seen elsewhere. Many of those basic kicks linked in this thread are quite similar to what we do at Moo Sul Kwan. My guess is that they were at least co-invented or co-researched by Kim Mu-yung (or however you want to spell it). Perhaps Ji might have come up with a few all on his own and Kim saw them as useful and added them to his list to use and teach. I bet Ji did the same with a few from Kim.

Can any Sin Moo people elaborate on this? I am not sure at this point which kicks we should actually attribute as invented, learned, similar, identical.

Now, that would take some time, wouldn't it? But the results could make a nice chapter in a "history of hapkido." Would be a lot of conjecture and speculation involved, I reckon.

There was much made of this type of quote, this is from The Courier. Friday, April 19, 1991 Volume 24, No. 20, and this is only part of the quote - referring to kicking: "Certain hapkido techniques differ greatly from other types of fighting arts. For example, most arts teach kicks that lean into the strike. However, Ji instructs his students to lean away from the kick. Ji is credited with the creation of spin kicks. Only spin kicks off the right foot are used because Ji believes power comes from moving in a clockwise motion. Reference is given to a passage in the Bible, in which Joshua brought down the walls of Jericho by walking clockwise around the city."

I have seen similar quotes often, but nothing is referred to here yet.

We don't lean away from kicks just to lean away from them. High side kicks and round kicks, for example, require the upper body to drop somewhat but we try to stay us upright as possible. Leaning compromises balance and we are always very conscious of compromising our balance as it provides openings to be thrown.

The idea that Ji "invented" spin kicks is... difficult to accept.

Restricting myself to only clockwise kicks is ... not something I would ever want to do. I've hit bags, body shields and people pretty hard spinning counterclockwise, fwiw.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The idea that Ji "invented" spin kicks is... difficult to accept.

Restricting myself to only clockwise kicks is ... not something I would ever want to do. I've hit bags, body shields and people pretty hard spinning counterclockwise, fwiw.

I agree with these points that you've brought up. Particularly the clockwise-only kicks. This is unsound from a technical as well as tactic perspective. A Hapkido practitioner cannot always foresee the position they may be in during or prior to an attack. By limiting a defense to only one direction cuts down on options. Additionally, it doesn't take into consideration any disability or injury that may be present or has occurred. Effective defensive techniques need to take into account more than one angle or direction of implementation to ensure the highest % of success.

At this point, I think it is safe to say that the kicks Ji may have included weren't invented by him. Their level of effectiveness is up for debate. This is not stated 'against' the man, but I think any suggestion to the extent that he has invented something unique in the world of martial arts is perhaps a bit on the Urban Legend side of things. Examples of these advanced 'invented' and/or 'included' kicks have been requested for 3 pages now. I don't foresee anything coming of that as there has been no attempt to substantiate that particular claim. So it is what it is and time to continue the thread along other lines, particularly TIG standards for some branches of Hapkido.

As has been demonstrated in this thread, Ji obtained 8th Dan in his 20's after around 16 years of training. Yorkshire's instructor achieved 6th Dan after about 4 years of training. They appear to be in the same branch of Hapkido. I'm not pointing fingers or hoisting the red flag warning, simply restating what has already been stated for further discussion. Too me, it looks like some seriously short TIG or serious skips at the Dan level. So the question comes up, how does this stack up to other branches of Hapkido?

Thank you again to all participants and those that have been willing to provide transparency for examination.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

At this point, I think it is safe to say that the kicks Ji may have included weren't invented by him. Their level of effectiveness is up for debate. This is not stated 'against' the man, but I think any suggestion to the extent that he has invented something unique in the world of martial arts is perhaps a bit on the Urban Legend side of things. Examples of these advanced 'invented' and/or 'included' kicks have been requested for 3 pages now. I don't foresee anything coming of that as there has been no attempt to substantiate that particular claim. So it is what it is and time to continue the thread along other lines, particularly TIG standards for some branches of Hapkido.

Everything that anyone invents in martial arts has likely been invented by someone else at some point previously. Happens a lot in music too. People are often unaware of just how much their influences play in the creation of their new opus. Sometimes, different artists will write songs that sound similar because they are both in the same music scene and have a lot of the same influences and are into the same sound.

Doesn't make any of their work less original. I'm not going to speculate as to whether or not Ji invented his kicks, collaborated in their invention, or has simply repackaged and 'hapkido-ized' existing kicks. The kicks are in his branch of hapkido and likely will be associated with him as a result.

As has been demonstrated in this thread, Ji obtained 8th Dan in his 20's after around 16 years of training. Yorkshire's instructor achieved 6th Dan after about 4 years of training. They appear to be in the same branch of Hapkido. I'm not pointing fingers or hoisting the red flag warning, simply restating what has already been stated for further discussion. Too me, it looks like some seriously short TIG or serious skips at the Dan level. So the question comes up, how does this stack up to other branches of Hapkido?

Let's be clear: you are pointing fingers and hoisting the red flag warning. You may not see it that way, but ultimately, that is exactly what you are doing. And the fact that you are repeating what someone else said elsewhere doesn't change that.

Secondly, rapid advancement in young arts is hardly uncommon (less than fifty years old = young art). As I said earlier, rank is issued for a variety of reasons. Sometimes, it is issued because it is believed that the recipient of the rank has responsibilities that make it necessary to give him or her the authority that comes with rank. Judo sports at least one who was the topic of another thread (one about a 21 year old rokkudan).

I generally find that those (speaking generally, not of anyone specifically) who are shouting the loudest about the rank of others are seeking to justify own rank, either directly or indirectly.

That doesn't mean that they are unworthy of their rank; perhaps they are ranked by an unaffiliated sensei/sabeom and feel that those who's grades are with established federations look down at them (being graded in both hapkido and kendo by unaffiliated schools, I can certainly relate to that). Perhaps they have some kind of rank-inferiority complex. Perhaps they feel slighted if anyone gets their faster or at a younger age than themselves. Who knows?

Hapkido, regardless of which branch, is now over fifty years old and has stood up to decades of scrutiny.

I can understand questioning the veracity of the rank of some under 40 year old gudan running a McDojo. Going after GM Ji's rank, however, is just pointless, particularly at this juncture.

 

[leadleg]

A lot of organisations have no time in grade restrictions/requirements. If you meet their requirements for say, 4th then why would you not be awarded a 4th? If it is your org. and you award someone a 4th you need at least a 5th. The belt issue is forced on some people and orgs.
I remember at one point combat hapkido was to have no belts, but later used them to keep up.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Everything that anyone invents in martial arts has likely been invented by someone else at some point previously. Happens a lot in music too. People are often unaware of just how much their influences play in the creation of their new opus. Sometimes, different artists will write songs that sound similar because they are both in the same music scene and have a lot of the same influences and are into the same sound.

Doesn't make any of their work less original. I'm not going to speculate as to whether or not Ji invented his kicks, collaborated in their invention, or has simply repackaged and 'hapkido-ized' existing kicks. The kicks are in his branch of hapkido and likely will be associated with him as a result.

I cannot accept your comparison Daniel. There are only so many ways to kick based upon human anatomy. Music however has an infinite variety. The idea that Ji 'invented' kicks is not really a serious consideration.

Let's be clear: you are pointing fingers and hoisting the red flag warning...

Let's be clear: your wrong. If I have a direct issue with something, you'll know about it in a very upfront, direct way. You should know that from some of our previous conversations. If a frank discussion is to ensue on matters of rank, TIG, time in the arts, age etc then we need to examine what has been done, why it was done, the level of validity it holds and how it effects future considerations.

Again, I cannot accept your premise on the development of Hapkido ranking in this branch (Ji). Although it is a done deal now, it can still be examined for validity. And it doesn't follow the trend of arts that came before it, generally speaking. Using Uechi Ryu as just one example, Kannei trained for close to three decades before accepting the Dan/Kyu system and taking his rightful place on top. Don't quote me on a precise time line, I'd have to check dates. From memory, he began training in the early 20's and the Dan/Kyu system wasn't accepted in the art until the mid to late 50's. What I see, generally speaking is much more training/teaching time from Seniors in Okiwawan arts than that of Korean arts. It isn't 'pointing fingers' to simply state the factual obvious. That doesn't degrade the Koreans, but sets up a different dynamic to consider. Nothing more, nothing less.

This is, after all, a discussion board. Conversations don't progress by beating around the bush. They don't progress by stating things as factual yet never providing evidence to substantiate the statement. The progress by factual discussion of the facts as they surface. Different opinions will arise and that is fine. But at least intelligent, informed opinions can be formed.

In regards to Ji personally, I've weighed in on both sides of the validity issue with candid observations. That isn't pointing fingers, it is examining things from various angles. I don't always agree with you Daniel, but your opinion is respected. I'd like to see you also weigh in on both sides as well as others.

Thank you.

 

[puunui]

The idea that Ji "invented" spin kicks is... difficult to accept.

If it wasn't him, then who did?

 

[puunui]

There was much made of this type of quote, this is from The Courier. Friday, April 19, 1991 Volume 24, No. 20, and this is only part of the quote - referring to kicking: "Certain hapkido techniques differ greatly from other types of fighting arts. For example, most arts teach kicks that lean into the strike. However, Ji instructs his students to lean away from the kick. Ji is credited with the creation of spin kicks. Only spin kicks off the right foot are used because Ji believes power comes from moving in a clockwise motion. Reference is given to a passage in the Bible, in which Joshua brought down the walls of Jericho by walking clockwise around the city."

I have seen similar quotes often, but nothing is referred to here yet.

that quote is not entirely accurate as far as GM Ji's philosophy goes. Again, if you wish to learn what GM Ji teaches and why, then my suggestion is to go see him directly yourself. He is not that far from you and frankly, I am surprised that you haven't already seen him. He has also given seminars in Chicago. Did you take advantage of those opportunities to see for yourself?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Originally Posted by zDom

The idea that Ji "invented" spin kicks is... difficult to accept.

If it wasn't him, then who did?

Gee whiz Glenn, you're the one that stated as fact that GM Ji invented (your words) advance kicks for Hapkido. You're a 9th Dan under GM JI with firsthand knowledge of these 'invented, advanced kicks'. Yet when questioned about it, and asked to substantiate your own statements...you disappear from the thread! Rather than answer the question directly here, in another thread you put in a side note that, 'well...maybe invented isn't the right word. Maybe 'included'. Once again, you're the 9th Dan under GM Ji...so which is it? Now you're acting like you don't know yourself, which begs the question, why did you state such a thing as fact on page 3 and then disappear until page 6?

Your M.O. is getting tiresome Glenn. You've done that here, in other Hapkido threads, in the general section with Chris Parker, in the TKD section on numerous threads etc. Don't state something as factual if you are unable or unwilling to back it up. Some of us are serious here and don't think it's a big game or a joke. If information is offered as factual, I'd like to see it, evaluate it and learn from it. That's what the board is all about.

 

[puunui]

Gee whiz Glenn, you're the one that stated as fact that GM Ji invented (your words) advance kicks for Hapkido. You're a 9th Dan under GM JI with firsthand knowledge of these 'invented, advanced kicks'. Yet when questioned about it, and asked to substantiate your own statements...you disappear from the thread! Rather than answer the question directly here, in another thread you put in a side note that, 'well...maybe invented isn't the right word. Maybe 'included'. Once again, you're the 9th Dan under GM Ji...so which is it? Now you're acting like you don't know yourself, which begs the question, why did you state such a thing as fact on page 3 and then disappear until page 6?

Well, if you really need to know, I have been busy taking care of my father. It has been a difficult weekend.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I cannot accept your comparison Daniel. There are only so many ways to kick based upon human anatomy. Music however has an infinite variety.

Which reinforces my point, the limits of how the human body can move make it much more likely for different people to 'invent' the same techniques.

Most techniques that have existed in more than one style for longer than the history of those styles exist because people figured them out and built on them rather than because one group got it from another. So the idea that an innovator may 'invent' kicks that already exist in some form is well within reason. And 'invent' may be as simple as, 'hey, I was practicing some stuff and came up with this.' Then the kicks were credifted to him by his juniors in the art. Outside of hapkido, nobody cares.

I posed a question earlier regarding GM Ji's and Kim Mu Hong's part in development of hapkido kicks. It still hasn't been answered, but that probably has more to do with the volume of posts on this thread than with any concerted effort to avoid it.

The idea that Ji 'invented' kicks is not really a serious consideration.

Then why is it being discussed over multiple pages?

Let's be clear: your wrong. If I have a direct issue with something, you'll know about it in a very upfront, direct way. You should know that from some of our previous conversations. If a frank discussion is to ensue on matters of rank, TIG, time in the arts, age etc then we need to examine what has been done, why it was done, the level of validity it holds and how it effects future considerations.

Let me put it another way; when you (general you, not you specifically)pick out a specific person and their art and state publicly that their rank is questionable due to either who it was that issued it or how long they have been training, that does have the effect of pointing fingers or raising a red flag.

Edit: which is probably how I should have phrased it to you. Rereading my previous post, it does kind of come off as harsh. Apologies.

Again, I cannot accept your premise on the development of Hapkido ranking in this branch (Ji). Although it is a done deal now, it can still be examined for validity.

What premise is that? I haven't given a premise about GM Ji's rank. I made some general comments about why higher rank may be issued.

I don't know the peculiarities of GM Ji's advancement well enough to formulate a premise either. Besides, it seems that how he was ranked and by whom has been covered in this thread; a Mister Park (8th dan if I recall) and GM Myung (10th dan if I recall).

And it doesn't follow the trend of arts that came before it, generally speaking. Using Uechi Ryu as just one example, Kannei trained for close to three decades before accepting the Dan/Kyu system and taking his rightful place on top. Don't quote me on a precise time line, I'd have to check dates. From memory, he began training in the early 20's and the Dan/Kyu system wasn't accepted in the art until the mid to late 50's.

That hapkido employed the kyu/dan system earlier in its history than uechi ryu has no bearing on the validity of GM Ji's or anyone else's grade.

What I see, generally speaking is much more training/teaching time from Seniors in Okiwawan arts than that of Korean arts. It isn't 'pointing fingers' to simply state the factual obvious. That doesn't degrade the Koreans, but sets up a different dynamic to consider. Nothing more, nothing less.

Again, the differences between Okinwan and Korean arts with regards to time in grade has no bearing on the validity of GM Ji's or anyone else's grade.

Not to mention that grading standards vary from art to art within a nation, and from style to style within an art.

This is, after all, a discussion board. Conversations don't progress by beating around the bush. They don't progress by stating things as factual yet never providing evidence to substantiate the statement. The progress by factual discussion of the facts as they surface. Different opinions will arise and that is fine. But at least intelligent, informed opinions can be formed.

While I agree, the only real debate here seems to be with regards to whether or not GM Ji invented kicks. I haven't seen any debate about the time period for his rank, his age at the time he received it, or whether or not it was issued by Choi Dojunim. Nor does there seem to be any debate as to whether or not Sin Moo Hapkido is legitimate or is hapkido.

It really comes down to opinion: do you feel that based on the available facts that GM Ji is worthy of paldan? Either you do or you don't. Given that the man is in his eighties and his art is beyond being well established, I personally feel that the point is rather moot.

One question that I have for anyone who can answer it is this: when were the current time in grade standards (one year per current dan or one year per next dan) and general acceptable age minimums introduced? And when were they introduced to hapkido?

In regards to Ji personally, I've weighed in on both sides of the validity issue with candid observations. That isn't pointing fingers, it is examining things from various angles. I don't always agree with you Daniel, but your opinion is respected. I'd like to see you also weigh in on both sides as well as others.

I've weighed in about as much as I am going to with regards to GM Ji personally. You may notice that most of my comments are speculative; 'perhaps it was for this reason, perhaps for that reason, rank is issued for a variety of reasons, etc.' I don't train in Sin Moo Hapkido, and my knowledge of hapkido history is what I call a working history. Meaning that I know the overall gist of it and have more details in some areas than in others.

 

[puunui]

I posed a question earlier regarding GM Ji's and Kim Mu Hong's part in development of hapkido kicks. It still hasn't been answered, but that probably has more to do with the volume of posts on this thread than with any concerted effort to avoid it.

It was answered, by me, somewhere. Lots of threads going at the moment.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It was answered, by me, somewhere. Lots of threads going at the moment.

There's that as well. I didn't see it. I'll have to look again. Hope your dad is alright.

 

[puunui]

There's that as well. I didn't see it. I'll have to look again.

it's in the development of hapkido kicking techniques thread.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

it's in the development of hapkido kicking techniques thread.

Wow!! A thread just for my question! Thanks!

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Well, if you really need to know, I have been busy taking care of my father. It has been a difficult weekend.

And yet you've had time to post 57 times in other threads just since Saturday....

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Then why is it being discussed over multiple pages?

Simply look for something of substance from the person that stated the original premise.

Let me put it another way; when you (general you, not you specifically)pick out a specific person and their art and state publicly that their rank is questionable due to either who it was that issued it or how long they have been training, that does have the effect of pointing fingers or raising a red flag.

Interesting point, did you ever mention this to Glenn the many times he's done the same thing? Or can some people look at this topic and some can't? How about a level playing field for one and all.

That hapkido employed the kyu/dan system earlier in its history than uechi ryu has no bearing on the validity of GM Ji's or anyone else's grade.

Sure it does, by way of comparison between arts, cultures, various seniors and their motiviation(s).

While I agree, the only real debate here seems to be with regards to whether or not GM Ji invented kicks. I haven't seen any debate about the time period for his rank, his age at the time he received it, or whether or not it was issued by Choi Dojunim. Nor does there seem to be any debate as to whether or not Sin Moo Hapkido is legitimate or is hapkido.

Doesn't necessarily require debate as much as discussion, which occurred early on. As I've mentioned, I've weighed in on both sides with comments and observations. Others have as well. The question on the development of 'advanced' kicks could have served to add merit to his accomplishments. But that isn't the case here now. So really, it is back to whether or not someone in their mid-20's with around 16 years of training really warrants an 8th Dan. If so, why? If not, why? And yes, we can compare it to other arts as in some way, shape or form they are interconnected.

To further the discussion, not counting the earlier mentioned individual that went from white belt to 6th Dan in 4 years, using at least the semi-recognized standard of perhaps 1 year per Dan level for TIG i.e. 1st to 2nd = 1 year, 2nd to 3rd = 3 years etc, GM Ji would have been around a 5th Dan. Give or take. Since he was the 'founder' (a term I'm using loosely), everyone else would have been under him in TIG/TIA. So if he is a 'founder', why not just go to 10th? Why not progress in a natural progression as anyone else would be expected to do? Is accelerated TIG permissible for a founder? Should they just assume the top position without any progression? And if it was done then...why would anyone have a problem with it now?

There, the discussion is back on track

 

[puunui]

And yet you've had time to post 57 times in other threads just since Saturday....

Hardly, but if you don't like it, then I suggest that you take a trip to Pennsylvania and go ask GM Ji himself about which kicks he invented. Or you can go check out the sinmoo hapkido clubs that are in and around your area in Florida.