I cannot accept your comparison Daniel. There are only so many ways to kick based upon human anatomy. Music however has an infinite variety.
Which reinforces my point, the limits of how the human body can move make it much more likely for different people to 'invent' the same techniques.
Most techniques that have existed in more than one style for longer than the history of those styles exist because people figured them out and built on them rather than because one group got it from another. So the idea that an innovator may 'invent' kicks that already exist in some form is well within reason. And 'invent' may be as simple as, 'hey, I was practicing some stuff and came up with this.' Then the kicks were credifted to him by his juniors in the art. Outside of hapkido, nobody cares.
I posed a question earlier regarding GM Ji's and Kim Mu Hong's part in development of hapkido kicks. It still hasn't been answered, but that probably has more to do with the volume of posts on this thread than with any concerted effort to avoid it.
The idea that Ji 'invented' kicks is not really a serious consideration.
Then why is it being discussed over multiple pages?
Let's be clear: your wrong. If I have a direct issue with something, you'll know about it in a very upfront, direct way. You should know that from some of our previous conversations. If a frank discussion is to ensue on matters of rank, TIG, time in the arts, age etc then we need to examine what has been done, why it was done, the level of validity it holds and how it effects future considerations.
Let me put it another way; when you (general you, not you specifically
)pick out a specific person and their art and state publicly that their rank is questionable due to either who it was that issued it or how long they have been training, that
does have the effect of pointing fingers or raising a red flag.
Edit: which is probably how I should have phrased it to you. Rereading my previous post, it does kind of come off as harsh. Apologies.
Again, I cannot accept your premise on the development of Hapkido ranking in this branch (Ji). Although it is a done deal now, it can still be examined for validity.
What premise is that? I haven't given a premise about GM Ji's rank. I made some general comments about why higher rank may be issued.
I don't know the peculiarities of GM Ji's advancement well enough to formulate a premise either. Besides, it seems that how he was ranked and by whom has been covered in this thread; a Mister Park (8th dan if I recall) and GM Myung (10th dan if I recall).
And it doesn't follow the trend of arts that came before it, generally speaking. Using Uechi Ryu as just one example, Kannei trained for close to three decades before accepting the Dan/Kyu system and taking his rightful place on top. Don't quote me on a precise time line, I'd have to check dates. From memory, he began training in the early 20's and the Dan/Kyu system wasn't accepted in the art until the mid to late 50's.
That hapkido employed the kyu/dan system earlier in its history than uechi ryu has no bearing on the validity of GM Ji's or anyone else's grade.
What I see, generally speaking is much more training/teaching time from Seniors in Okiwawan arts than that of Korean arts. It isn't 'pointing fingers' to simply state the factual obvious. That doesn't degrade the Koreans, but sets up a different dynamic to consider. Nothing more, nothing less.
Again, the differences between Okinwan and Korean arts with regards to time in grade has no bearing on the validity of GM Ji's or anyone else's grade.
Not to mention that grading standards vary from art to art within a nation, and from style to style within an art.
This is, after all, a discussion board. Conversations don't progress by beating around the bush. They don't progress by stating things as factual yet never providing evidence to substantiate the statement. The progress by factual discussion of the facts as they surface. Different opinions will arise and that is fine. But at least intelligent, informed opinions can be formed.
While I agree, the only real debate here seems to be with regards to whether or not GM Ji invented kicks. I haven't seen any debate about the time period for his rank, his age at the time he received it, or whether or not it was issued by Choi Dojunim. Nor does there seem to be any debate as to whether or not Sin Moo Hapkido is legitimate or is hapkido.
It really comes down to opinion: do you feel that based on the available facts that GM Ji is worthy of paldan? Either you do or you don't. Given that the man is in his eighties and his art is beyond being well established, I personally feel that the point is rather moot.
One question that I have for anyone who can answer it is this: when were the current time in grade standards (one year per current dan or one year per next dan) and general acceptable age minimums introduced? And when were they introduced to hapkido?
In regards to Ji personally, I've weighed in on both sides of the validity issue with candid observations. That isn't pointing fingers, it is examining things from various angles. I don't always agree with you Daniel, but your opinion is respected. I'd like to see you also weigh in on both sides as well as others.
I've weighed in about as much as I am going to with regards to GM Ji personally. You may notice that most of my comments are speculative; '
perhaps it was for this reason, perhaps for that reason, rank is issued for a variety of reasons, etc.' I don't train in Sin Moo Hapkido, and my knowledge of hapkido history is what I call a working history. Meaning that I know the overall gist of it and have more details in some areas than in others.
